Secular Christianity

[Bradski]

All available information that I can find in regard to belief in God and religious participation shows that the younger you are, the less likely you are to have a belief or to nominate a religion. A Pew forum study has some info here: pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/belief-in-god/

It appears to me, bearing in mind the majority views in support for abortion, contraception, gay marriage and other matters by Christians of all denominations (and again, the greater majority in younger age groups), that religion is losing a lot of ground to a more secular viewpoint. There is even a substantial majority of people who are absolutely convinced of God’s existence that do not believe in an objective morality or would use common sense and/or philosophy for guidance as opposed to their religious teachings.

The concept of a secular or cultural Jew is well known. And I am currently reading a book by Ali Rizvi called The Atheist Muslim where he claims that he is a cultural Muslim and that there are a significantly large number of Muslims who might also claim that title.

I see Christianity heading that way. I’m sure someone might have some ideas why it is happening…

 

[adamhovey1988]

I shall counter the title of this with a thought about religous, dogmatic atheism.

 

[Bradski]

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[Richard_White]

All available information that I can find in regard to belief in God and religious participation shows that the younger you are, the less likely you are to have a belief or to nominate a religion. A Pew forum study has some info here: pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/belief-in-god/

It appears to me, bearing in mind the majority views in support for abortion, contraception, gay marriage and other matters by Christians of all denominations (and again, the greater majority in younger age groups), that religion is losing a lot of ground to a more secular viewpoint. There is even a substantial majority of people who are absolutely convinced of God’s existence that do not believe in an objective morality or would use common sense and/or philosophy for guidance as opposed to their religious teachings.

The concept of a secular or cultural Jew is well known. And I am currently reading a book by Ali Rizvi called The Atheist Muslim where he claims that he is a cultural Muslim and that there are a significantly large number of Muslims who might also claim that title.

I see Christianity heading that way. I’m sure someone might have some ideas why it is happening…

It has already happened. If you have ever heard of the phrase “Christmas-Easter Catholic,” then that is exactly what you are referring to - a person who identifies as Catholic on the “important holidays” and for the cultural prestige and social environment involved, but who lacks a true personal relationship with God and adherence to all of His teachings. It is unfortunate, but very true.

May God bless you all!

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

I think there are two factors involved here.

One, average Christians have never had this level of exposure to non-Christian cultures before. The internet is far and away the biggest component of that, but also more traditional media has made a concerted effort to bring these different ideas into our living rooms.

Two, there is no longer a stigma in separating the chaff from the wheat when it comes to traditional things. It used to be that if a person held a specific position that it would be assumed he or she would take all that came with it, good or bad. But now, not only in religion but also in things like politics and commerce, we see people keeping the parts of things they like and meld them with other things.

 

[dshix]

There’s a small button up towards the top left that when clicked enables you to start a new thread. Feel free to use it. There is no cost involved.

Well played, sir. Well played.

 

[josh987654321]

All available information that I can find in regard to belief in God and religious participation shows that the younger you are, the less likely you are to have a belief or to nominate a religion. A Pew forum study has some info here: pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/belief-in-god/

I must be the exception then. Nevertheless, I think generally young people are not thinking about that sort of thing unless something prompts them to, as I think no young person thinks that death could be around the corner, they think they will concern themselves with that stuff later if need be. Some people just don’t want to think about it because the questions and answers are too hard. Better not to upset the status quo, things seem to be going alright as is.

It appears to me, bearing in mind the majority views in support for abortion,

I doubt that, nevertheless, just because it’s popular doesn’t make it right as we find with Nazi Germany.

contraception,

I don’t doubt that, but what I find interesting, is when people claim to be intellectually honest, but go for the ‘easy’ answer, the answer we all know they want.

gay marriage

Main stream media pushes it as popular opinion, many young people can easily be swept by popular opinion, what I find funny, is that people could champion ‘common sense’, yet support same sex marriage which is the opposite of common sense, as common sense tells us that a man and a woman are uniquely designed for one another given their sexual organs and reproductive system and that ‘marriage’ is for the protection and rearing of children born from the fruit of that union, not IVF and surrogacy with two dads or two mums. And then common sense say’s, if gender is irrelevant and procreation is irrelevant, why two? Why even the family structure?

and other matters by Christians of all denominations (and again, the greater majority in younger age groups), that religion is losing a lot of ground to a more secular viewpoint.

If they are too busy working, or focusing on other areas, then they probably have not thought their beliefs through, some people can live with a lot of contradictions. As the base mind loves contradictions, because it’s easy, believe in God and the supernatural when it’s comfortable, disbelieve in God and the supernatural when it’s uncomfortable.

There is even a substantial majority of people who are absolutely convinced of God’s existence that do not believe in an objective morality

That’s a contradiction though.

or would use common sense and/or philosophy for guidance as opposed to their religious teachings.

Common sense says that a man and a woman are uniquely designed for one another, hence marriage being between a man and a woman for the rearing of children born of the fruit of that union.

The concept of a secular or cultural Jew is well known.

It’s a contradiction though.

And I am currently reading a book by Ali Rizvi called The Atheist Muslim where he claims that he is a cultural Muslim and that there are a significantly large number of Muslims who might also claim that title.

It’s also a contradiction though.

I see Christianity heading that way. I’m sure someone might have some ideas why it is happening…

I don’t know, I don’t believe so. As for why if it is, well, it’s probably different for everyone. I have a few theories, such as where one becomes complacent in the foundation that Christianity has laid for our western society, and thus takes it for granted, if it trends down that way, it wont be until it hits that tipping point and our society starts collapsing, whether it be due to in fighting or another Country, that people I guess will start to see what they had and discarded and how important it was.

For example, a nation that isn’t united around some sort of shared morality, is a divided nation that will ensure it’s own destruction, exactly how Rome fell, because nobody really knew what it meant to be Roman anymore, what were they fighting and dying for? and as Islam and Sharia Law are introduced in large numbers, not only are there issues such as abortion, euthanasia and same sex marriage dividing our nations and it’s citizens, but then so will some of the things taught in Sharia Law, such as child marriages, the death penalty for apostasy, blasphemy laws, the covering of women etc.

A nation needs to unite around some sort of moral ethos that the majority all share (Which for the west has always been our Judeo Christian values), eventually people will have to wake up to this or be destroyed by themselves or others, and at that time the real danger then (if Christianity were to be eroded enough), is if it unites around the wrong thing, such as communism or something like that I think.

I hope this has helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Then there is the well-known idea that history works like a pendulum. When the rottenness of the Roman Empire reached its zenith was precisely the time when Christianity began to achieve its greatest early successes. So when triumphant secularism rapturously celebrates its victories may well be the time when it is nearing its own demise.

Put that in the proverbial pipe and smoke it.

 

[Vonsalza]

…There is even a substantial majority of people who are absolutely convinced of God’s existence that do not believe in an objective morality or would use common sense and/or philosophy for guidance as opposed to their religious teachings.

Greetings Bradski!

“Common sense” - what, exactly, is that? The resonance of the moral practices of people around you do not, in itself, provide any sort of moral authority beyond mere confirmation bias. It is an echo and a moving target. It was “common sense” to the Aztec that when we had a bad harvest, human sacrifice was called-for.

I cringe when I read an atheist appeal to “common sense” as though they’ve appealed to an object that lacks the very same material (or non-material, as it were) pitfalls that they identify in their critique of religious morality.

I see Christianity heading that way. I’m sure someone might have some ideas why it is happening…

I’d have to object to it happening in the same way you describe. I’ve read poll after poll that identify people (particularly young people) being just as spiritual as they’ve always been. Their spiritualism, however, may not always be in the context of traditional, organized religion.

More problematic still - Catholic membership is projected to grow at a rate that outpaces world-population growth. So I’m not sure where your alleged secularist gains are coming from. However, I’ll concede that the secularizing of 10 million Catholics out of 1.2 billion would be hard to notice on a macroscopic level.

Even more problematic, Pew also suggests that 60% of the worlds “unaffiliated” are Chinese. China also happens to be the place with the most rapid nominal growth of Christianity by an incontestable margin.

In order to deal with your question, I have to agree that your underlying premises (if there are any) are factual. I cannot. In fact, I see a craving for metaphysical meaning that state-forced atheism has obviously been unable to provide. Ergo - the explosion of faith in areas where its previous existence was forbidden by rule of law.

All available information that I can find in regard to belief in God and religious participation shows that the younger you are, the less likely you are to have a belief or to nominate a religion.

More accurately - “The stuff I read in my echo-chamber says…”

 

[1Lord1Faith]

All available information that I can find in regard to belief in God and religious participation shows that the younger you are, the less likely you are to have a belief or to nominate a religion. A Pew forum study has some info here: pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/belief-in-god/

It appears to me, bearing in mind the majority views in support for abortion, contraception, gay marriage and other matters by Christians of all denominations (and again, the greater majority in younger age groups), that religion is losing a lot of ground to a more secular viewpoint. There is even a substantial majority of people who are absolutely convinced of God’s existence that do not believe in an objective morality or would use common sense and/or philosophy for guidance as opposed to their religious teachings.

The concept of a secular or cultural Jew is well known. And I am currently reading a book by Ali Rizvi called The Atheist Muslim where he claims that he is a cultural Muslim and that there are a significantly large number of Muslims who might also claim that title.

I see Christianity heading that way. I’m sure someone might have some ideas why it is happening…

I thinks it’s happening because materialism is providing more and more refuge from life’s questions and struggles, making religions look useless. Generalized spiritualism, to me, is just a natural function of the psyche; so organized religion, once again appears useless when material goods and services can make people physically comfortable. Material goods and services also promote autonomy which would tend to lead to an autonomous spirituality.

I thought the most interesting thing in the Pew poll you linked was the low levels of peace and well-being felt by those with a weak or non-belief in God viewpoint. I don’t think materialism can reach the deepest parts of a person, which I would refer to as the soul.

 

[inocente]

A Pew forum study has some info here: pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/belief-in-god/

That’s a survey of Americans, who are only 4.4% of the world population. Let’s face it, if the other 95.6% of the world notices American Christianity at all, it’s likely only through the eyes of Marge Simpson and Peter Griffin.

Not sure of your thesis given that a worldwide Pew study says “Atheists, agnostics and other people who do not affiliate with any religion – though increasing in countries such as the United States and France – will make up a declining share of the world’s total population.”

pewforum.org/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/
pewforum.org/files/2015/03/PF_15.04.02_ProjectionsFullReport.pdf

 

[Charlemagne_III]

All available information that I can find in regard to belief in God and religious participation shows that the younger you are, the less likely you are to have a belief or to nominate a religion.

All this demonstrates is that atheism is for those who have not intellectually or emotionally matured to the point where they can contemplate in depth God and the mysteries of life. It is easier to just suppose that there are no ultimate mysteries. It is easier to just conclude that we are born, we eat, we conjugate, and we die. Period.

 

[Vonsalza]

All this demonstrates is that atheism is for those who have not intellectually or emotionally matured to the point where they can contemplate in depth God and the mysteries of life. It is easier to just suppose that there are no ultimate mysteries. It is easier to just conclude that we are born, we eat, we conjugate, and we die. Period.

The reason atheism has been, and forever will be a fringe belief is that it fails to answer both “the problem of good” and “the problem of evil”. It has to make a demur plea to a non-sequitur they label “common sense”, which is really just the residue of the religious belief within the referenced society. Without it, “common sense” is the quintessential example of circular reasoning.

 

[Bradski]

“Common sense” - what, exactly, is that? The resonance of the moral practices of people around you do not, in itself, provide any sort of moral authority beyond mere confirmation bias. It is an echo and a moving target. It was “common sense” to the Aztec that when we had a bad harvest, human sacrifice was called-for.

What is it? It’s what some people use to draw conclusions about the world around them. Here’s an example I found.

Common sense says that a man and a woman are uniquely designed for one another, hence marriage being between a man and a woman for the rearing of children born of the fruit of that union.

I guess that you don’t use it. Well, except when it might suit your purpose…?

 

[Vonsalza]

What is it? It’s what some people use to draw conclusions about the world around them. Here’s an example I found.
I guess that you don’t use it. Well, except when it might suit your purpose…?

As a source of objective truth, of course not. Do you? Well… As an atheist I guess you have to…

How do I know it’s REAL, Bradski? How do I know it’s not just made-up? How do you explain when my “common sense” yields a different answer from your “common sense”? And when that exists, how can it possibly be a valid metric by which we determine what’s commonly right when it’s just a more authoritative-looking version of “well, I think…”

How do I know it’s not just confirmation bias?

How do I confirm the truth of “common sense” in a way that is more independently and materially reproducible than the way I confirm religious truth?

 

[josh987654321]

I guess that you don’t use it. Well, except when it might suit your purpose…?

Back at you.

 

[Bradski]

Back at you.

What I said in that post was directed at Vonsalza, not you. I didn’t make that clear enough - my apologies.

 

[Bradski]

More accurately - “The stuff I read in my echo-chamber says…”

If I were thin skinned I might take that as an insult. Perhaps you didn’t mean it as such, but it comes across as if you are insinuating I live in some hermetically sealed secular bubble which renders any interpretation of polling information I make as being invalid and self-serving.

Maybe you have some information that contradicts what I posted. In which case I would appreciate you letting us all know. We can then discuss the accuracy and its relevance.

That’s a survey of Americans, who are only 4.4% of the world population. Let’s face it, if the other 95.6% of the world notices American Christianity at all, it’s likely only through the eyes of Marge Simpson and Peter Griffin.

Not sure of your thesis given that a worldwide Pew study says “Atheists, agnostics and other people who do not affiliate with any religion – though increasing in countries such as the United States and France – will make up a declining share of the world’s total population.”

pewforum.org/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/
pewforum.org/files/2015/03/PF_15.04.02_ProjectionsFullReport.pdf

True, it’s a poll based on American beliefs – the link indicated that. I didn’t intend it to be taken as being world-wide because I think the changes in religious beliefs across all nations is a bridge too far for this discussion. Although if it heads off in that direction I’ve no problem.

In fact, on that matter, the point that you made that the percentage of atheist and unaffiliated will decrease is correct. Albeit as a percentage of the population. The numbers increase (by approximately 60 million, which is the number that Christianity is estimated to lose) but as the world’s population is increasing at a greater rate, the overall percentage drops slightly.

In fact, the only major religious group estimated to increase their percentage of the population is Islam. I’m not too confident that ‘Cultural Muslims’ are going to make too much of a dent in that.

 

[Vonsalza]

If I were thin skinned I might take that as an insult. Perhaps you didn’t mean it as such, but it comes across as if you are insinuating I live in some hermetically sealed secular bubble which renders any interpretation of polling information I make as being invalid and self-serving.

It’s well-enough observed that “echo-chamber” is not a term I crafted. You can hear it on the news nightly. One naturally gravitating to information sources that “echo” one’s own views isn’t a novel concept.

Maybe you have some information that contradicts what I posted. In which case I would appreciate you letting us all know. We can then discuss the accuracy and its relevance.

As you’ve shown a penchant for Pew, I’ll use Pew. pewforum.org/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/

Christianity is growing at the same rate as global population. Faith, on the whole, is growing faster - thanks largely to Islam. In a promising revelation for Christians, Pew does not currently have a methodology for reliably accounting for the growth of Christianity in China - the worlds most populous country and home to most of the world’s “Unaffiliated”.

The Unaffiliated, however, are shedding growth more rapidly than any other mentioned faith group - you may be displeased to hear. Troubling still is the fact that “Unaffiliated” simply means “not affiliated with other mentioned groups.” This is not quite the same as “atheist”, I’m sure we agree.

This directly contradicts your posit that Christianity is “shrinking”, both nominally and as a percentage of population. Did you make that up or was it sourced? It certainly lends itself to the notion of “echo chamber” if it’s only correct within a specific, selected microcosm.

 

[Bradski]

It’s well-enough observed that “echo-chamber” is not a term I crafted. You can hear it on the news nightly. One naturally gravitating to information sources that “echo” one’s own views isn’t a novel concept.

I’m well aware of the term. It’s the implication of bias that might rub someone up the wrong way.

It’sAs you’ve shown a penchant for Pew, I’ll use Pew.

Christianity is growing at the same rate as global population. Faith, on the whole, is growing faster - thanks largely to Islam. In a promising revelation for Christians, Pew does not currently have a methodology for reliably accounting for the growth of Christianity in China - the worlds most populous country and home to most of the world’s “Unaffiliated”.

You are arguing against a point that no-one has made. May I suggest that you re-read the OP again. Which talks about the secularisation of various beliefs, not the number of people who are leaving, for example, Christianity or joining the ranks of, for example, those classing themselves as unaffilliated.

Notwithstanding that the very information to which you have linked indicates that over the next few decades, Pew estimates that the number of people leaving Christianity will be balanced by the increase in number of people classing themselves as unaffiliated.

This directly contradicts your posit that Christianity is “shrinking”, both nominally and as a percentage of population.

It’s not a point I have made, wanted to make or will make at any time. Again, re-read the OP which discusses the change in attitudes of Christians, not any change in their numbers. Then feel free to add any comments on that particular aspect of religious beliefs.