Secular Christianity

[Ormond]

Interesting thread Bradski, thanks.

My thought is that one can be very religious, without being ideological, by focusing one’s spiritual journey on experience instead of ideas.

So for instance, a Catholic might be very involved in volunteering for Catholic Charities or any other community project, and through that activity explore the experience of love. Not ideas about love, not the theory, but the experience itself, how it feels. I think many people already do this instinctively without bothering to explain it, even to themselves.

Say the volunteer has a secular friend, and the friend asks, “Why do you do all this charity work anyway?” And the volunteer replies, “Because it feels good!” This is a simple clear true answer with universal appeal.

The more we complicate that answer, the more people we’ll alienate from the experience. The more deeply we feel the experience, the more credible we’ll be, and the more others will want to know how to feel good too.

Imho, this is not watered down Christianity, but a purer form of it. The volunteer is effectively saying…

“Love is a power sufficient unto itself. It doesn’t require help from the outside”.

Those requiring Biblical reference might recall that apostle John said, “God is love”. He didn’t say, “God is a theory about love, a book about love, talk about love etc”.

Ideology, indeed any thought, is an abstraction, a one step removed second hand experience, by it’s very nature. Obviously, or perhaps not so obviously, the word love is not love, but a word. I sense that some people grow weary and impatient with the endless recycling of second hand abstractions and sensibly conclude, enough of that already, give me the real thing.

So you see Bradski, this is my sermon against sermons, my ideology against ideologies, my talking of the talk which really has pretty much nothing to do with the walking of the walk, my argument with myself. God is teaching me how to have a sense of humor about my human condition through the practice of blatant self-contradiction.

Perhaps some day all the talkers of the talk, including this one, will embrace and laugh about their own self-contradictory talking, and then the talking of the talk will collapse of it’s own dead weight, and the only way left to be a Christian will be to act like one.

But, um, you go first.

 

[Vico]

I’m not sure the facts provide that out, though. The other Pew data suggested that the religious “unaffiliated” are shrinking as a percentage of population. Christianity is static by the same metric (with an obvious problem of the metric ignoring China) and faith, on the whole, is growing.

The OP even dishonestly argues that the “hasty generalization” he committed wasn’t so, because all you had to do to was click his link, then carefully parse through it to find the sample description that wasn’t referred to in any way in the actual post or the face page it linked.

Perhaps faith is secularizing in the US. On a global scale (the only one that really matters IMO), it’s not. The data suggests quite the opposite - secular thought is likely being rejected in favor of faith. The notion that it could be reasoned by a comparison of global political systems requiring faith for empowerment is tangential and arbitrary - which requires further rationalizing.

The OP is at least erroneous, perhaps disingenuous.

I was thinking of the US particularly where 2007 unaffiliated is 16.1% in 2007 and changed to 22.8% in 2014.

 

[Bradski]

OK. I agree with “religion is losing a lot of ground to a more secular viewpoint.” that you wrote. The survey was not what I was commenting on but Christian version of cultural Jew and Atheist Muslim. I would not call those categories religious but secular for those that identify with a Jewish or Muslim state.

I can’t disagree with that. ‘Cultural Jew’ is not a term with which I would have a problem, but ‘Atheist Muslim’ appears to be, at least at face value, a contradiction in terms. As would ‘Atheist Christian’ (although I have seen some polls where people who self-identify as Christians state that they have no belief in God – go figure). Maybe Rizvi (the author of the book from where the term came from) thought that Secular Muslim didn’t catch the eye as well as Atheist Muslim.

In any case, what are the reasons you think Christians are becoming more secular? Education? Media? Internet? All of the above?

Perhaps some day all the talkers of the talk, including this one, will embrace and laugh about their own self-contradictory talking, and then the talking of the talk will collapse of it’s own dead weight, and the only way left to be a Christian will be to act like one.

But, um, you go first.

I’m reminded of something my mother always used to say when someone did something she thought was wrong: ‘That wasn’t a very Christian thing to do’. I guess she believed that you had to be a Christian to do good. Or at least not be a Christian (or perhaps temporarily ignore your faith) to do something bad.

I tend to think that someone is a good person AND a Christian, rather than a good person BECAUSE she is a Christian.

 

[Ormond]

I’m reminded of something my mother always used to say when someone did something she thought was wrong: ‘That wasn’t a very Christian thing to do’. I guess she believed that you had to be a Christian to do good. Or at least not be a Christian (or perhaps temporarily ignore your faith) to do something bad…

Thanks for the reply, but um, you completely missed the point of my post. No problem, probably poor writing on my part. Will try again some day.

 

[Vico]

I can’t disagree with that. ‘Cultural Jew’ is not a term with which I would have a problem, but ‘Atheist Muslim’ appears to be, at least at face value, a contradiction in terms. As would ‘Atheist Christian’ (although I have seen some polls where people who self-identify as Christians state that they have no belief in God – go figure). Maybe Rizvi (the author of the book from where the term came from) thought that Secular Muslim didn’t catch the eye as well as Atheist Muslim.

In any case, what are the reasons you think Christians are becoming more secular? Education? Media? Internet? All of the above?

I’m reminded of something my mother always used to say when someone did something she thought was wrong: ‘That wasn’t a very Christian thing to do’. I guess she believed that you had to be a Christian to do good. Or at least not be a Christian (or perhaps temporarily ignore your faith) to do something bad.

I tend to think that someone is a good person AND a Christian, rather than a good person BECAUSE she is a Christian.

For secularization of Christian nations, the idealization of life styles opposed to the culture of the imitation of Christ and the Beatitudes, which means opposed to; poor, chaste, obedient, and humble heart.

 

[PRmerger]

I see Christianity heading that way. I’m sure someone might have some ideas why it is happening…

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[minkymurph]

All available information that I can find in regard to belief in God and religious participation shows that the younger you are, the less likely you are to have a belief or to nominate a religion. A Pew forum study has some info here: pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/belief-in-god/

It appears to me, bearing in mind the majority views in support for abortion, contraception, gay marriage and other matters by Christians of all denominations (and again, the greater majority in younger age groups), that religion is losing a lot of ground to a more secular viewpoint. There is even a substantial majority of people who are absolutely convinced of God’s existence that do not believe in an objective morality or would use common sense and/or philosophy for guidance as opposed to their religious teachings.

The concept of a secular or cultural Jew is well known. And I am currently reading a book by Ali Rizvi called The Atheist Muslim where he claims that he is a cultural Muslim and that there are a significantly large number of Muslims who might also claim that title.

I see Christianity heading that way. I’m sure someone might have some ideas why it is happening…

I can only comment in regard to the society in which I live, but in my defense most of us can only comment in this regard. I would further say that in this thread we are dealing primarily with western democracies.

When I was in teens and early twenties, I was firmly of the opinion the Thatcherite government was a dictatorship that must be overthrown and the only way to overthrow this evil power was by revolution. I don’t think I ever got around to actually doing anything, but I talked and dreamed of it a lot. When I was in my thirties someone told me of a revolutionary engaged in overthrowing a dictatorship in South America. During the revolution his job was blowing up bridges. The revolution was successful, the revolutionaries came to power, and the revolutionary whose job it was to blow up bridges became minister for the environment. His first job of office was to rebuild all the bridges he had blown up. The moral of the story was, ‘It’s one thing to have a revolution but if you are successful and get elected to power, you will have to do something about all the problems that caused the revolution in the first place.’ I didn’t like that bit.

The relevance of this story is generally speaking the young have always been less ‘conservative’ and more ‘radical’ than the old. This is not a new phenomenon. Generally speaking we become more ‘conservative’ though possibly more tolerant as we get older. Grandparents let their grandchildren away with things they would NEVER have let their own children away with. When I was in my teens and twenties people it was also the case there was more support for abortion and contraception in that age group, and greater tolerance towards gays. It was also the case I and my peers were more interested in who had what motor bike, where the best rock bands were playing, if the lead singer was cool, and who was going - particularly the hot guy you fancied - than religion. It was also the case religion and politics were taboo subjects among that age group - because they wanted to stay friends.

I think what is more significant today is more mature people are more secular. I say it is more significant as more mature people tend to hold power and play a more active role in determining the medium of society. One reason for that is we know, and better informed and information is so readily available. For this reason I can’t see us returned to a ‘state of ignorance’ on issues that are fundamental to society. By ‘ignorance’ I mean ‘uninformed.’ As information is so readily available we can’t lead people up the garden path to the same extent we could have done when information was not so readily available. Parents can’t tell their children, ‘That didn’t happen in my day’ because their children can go online and find out it did. The positive of this is they have a more open and honest relationship with their children less centered on authority.

 

[minkymurph]

All available information that I can find in regard to belief in God and religious participation shows that the younger you are, the less likely you are to have a belief or to nominate a religion. A Pew forum study has some info here: pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/belief-in-god/

It appears to me, bearing in mind the majority views in support for abortion, contraception, gay marriage and other matters by Christians of all denominations (and again, the greater majority in younger age groups), that religion is losing a lot of ground to a more secular viewpoint. There is even a substantial majority of people who are absolutely convinced of God’s existence that do not believe in an objective morality or would use common sense and/or philosophy for guidance as opposed to their religious teachings.

The concept of a secular or cultural Jew is well known. And I am currently reading a book by Ali Rizvi called The Atheist Muslim where he claims that he is a cultural Muslim and that there are a significantly large number of Muslims who might also claim that title.

I see Christianity heading that way. I’m sure someone might have some ideas why it is happening…

I would say it has always been the case the majority of people who are absolutely convinced of God’s existence would use common sense and/or philosophy for guidance as opposed to religious teachings. It is not a new phenomenon. The difference today is they are more open about it, one reason being the absence of fear. People today don’t fear what others in their community think to the same degree they did in the past. In the past we had a greater tendency to marginalize those who did not think as we did or live their lives as we deemed they should. There is also greater separation of Church and State though in some western democracies it continues to be the case there is an established Church.

It continues to be case in Northern Ireland a church based party composed of religious fundamentalists hold the balance of power in that they are the majority party. Atheists have the power to change this, but they choose not to. The choose not to on the ground they are ‘Protestant’ atheists and thus the constitution of Northern Ireland takes precedence over everything else, choose not to vote at all, and choose not to form a political party and seek election.

It can be said religion is loosing ground to secular thinking, but this is not a contemporary phenomenon. The same phenomenon can be observed through human history. The French Revolution and the 1798 Rebellion in Ireland are prime examples, yet in Northern Ireland it continues to be the case The average radical atheist I have engaged in dialogue with dreams of a world of no religion. I use the term ‘radical’ as there are lots of ‘I don’t care whether you believe in God or not, do your own thing but don’t bother me with it’ atheists around that don’t dream of a world of no religion. Atheists in Northern Ireland are allowing a church based party composed largely of religious fundamentalists to significantly influence the medium of society of their own free will. In my view - they always will. That being the case, irrespective of how secular the citizens of Northern Ireland become it will continue to be the case it will be left largely to we who believe in God to protect rights and maintain sociopolitical, and economic stability, and as such there will always be some element of religious teaching in the principles that underpin our society.

 

[Bradski]

I think it was in an Irish context that I first heard the term ‘Protestant atheist’. It was in the form of a joke, but like all jokes it hit a little harder because you knew it was based on some truth. Two words that can sum up not a lifetime of conflict, but one that lasts generations.

As Dave Allen used to say: ‘May your God go with you’.

 

[edwest2]

The reasons for the decline are well known. The groups involved can be identified and their primary motivation was to destroy the family in the West through four decades of manipulation. I watched it unfold, as did my contemporaries. There is no such thing as Secular Christianity. It’s like saying Jesus was secular. But, years of gradual poisoning have done their work. Those of us who kept our heads did our best. By the grace of God, I know a few people where the reality of it all has been made plain to them. No one is perfect, but rolling around in the secular mud, meaning the majority of the media, is not an option. Some people just live their lives as God intended. The internet is no place to leave private information.

I remember the late 1960s quite well. “We’ll burn this country down if we have to!” The Hippies promised us a Woodstock Nation, which never appeared. A Hippie friend of mine acted like he just walked out of Hippie boot camp. The regulation length hair, the regulation clothing, the regulation sexual behavior and the mandatory dope smoking. His Hippie-speak was perfect. For a non-conformist, anti-establishment type, he was as Ultra-Orthodox as could be.

Sad that a few old Hippie sayings are still in play:

“Hey man, if it feels good, do it.” Which relates to some who feel that feelings are primary and understanding human life is secondary, which leads to the next:

“Do your own thing. Now your thing might not be my thing and my thing might not be your thing, but whatever it is, it’s cool.”

And sex with anybody? That goes without saying but it must be said. The West did not go from point A to point B by accident. So, this is better? No way. Not by a long shot.

Ed

 

[Bradski]

The reasons for the decline are well known. The groups involved can be identified and their primary motivation was to destroy the family in the West through four decades of manipulation. I watched it unfold, as did my contemporaries. There is no such thing as Secular Christianity. It’s like saying Jesus was secular. But, years of gradual poisoning have done their work. Those of us who kept our heads did our best. By the grace of God, I know a few people where the reality of it all has been made plain to them. No one is perfect, but rolling around in the secular mud, meaning the majority of the media, is not an option. Some people just live their lives as God intended. The internet is no place to leave private information.

I remember the late 1960s quite well. “We’ll burn this country down if we have to!” The Hippies promised us a Woodstock Nation, which never appeared. A Hippie friend of mine acted like he just walked out of Hippie boot camp. The regulation length hair, the regulation clothing, the regulation sexual behavior and the mandatory dope smoking. His Hippie-speak was perfect. For a non-conformist, anti-establishment type, he was as Ultra-Orthodox as could be.

Sad that a few old Hippie sayings are still in play:

“Hey man, if it feels good, do it.” Which relates to some who feel that feelings are primary and understanding human life is secondary, which leads to the next:

“Do your own thing. Now your thing might not be my thing and my thing might not be your thing, but whatever it is, it’s cool.”

And sex with anybody? That goes without saying but it must be said. The West did not go from point A to point B by accident. So, this is better? No way. Not by a long shot.

Ed

Ah yes. The good old days. Nostalgia is not what it used to be.

 

[minkymurph]

I think it was in an Irish context that I first heard the term ‘Protestant atheist’. It was in the form of a joke, but like all jokes it hit a little harder because you knew it was based on some truth. Two words that can sum up not a lifetime of conflict, but one that lasts generations.

As Dave Allen used to say: ‘May your God go with you’.

There were numerous jokes that went around about the little Jewish boy who moved to Northern Ireland and people asked him if he was a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew. Now the joke is, ‘Are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist.’

I had a conversation with someone who said, ‘I don’t believe in God’ and in the next breath said he was a Protestant. I asked him how he could be a Protestant if he didn’t believe in God and he became quite irate and insisted he was a Protestant.

Daire O’Brien is an atheist and describes himself as ‘ethnically Catholic.’ I think you have to live in Ireland to understand that.

 

[edwest2]

Ah yes. The good old days. Nostalgia is not what it used to be.

Facts are always facts.

Ed

 

[edwest2]

There were numerous jokes that went around about the little Jewish boy who moved to Northern Ireland and people asked him if he was a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew. Now the joke is, ‘Are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist.’

I had a conversation with someone who said, ‘I don’t believe in God’ and in the next breath said he was a Protestant. I asked him how he could be a Protestant if he didn’t believe in God and he became quite irate and insisted he was a Protestant.

Daire O’Brien is an atheist and describes himself as ‘ethnically Catholic.’ I think you have to live in Ireland to understand that.

Like Richard Dawkins who puts up a Christmas tree but only out of social convention. It’s true meaning being removed entirely.

Ed

 

[Bradski]

Like Richard Dawkins who puts up a Christmas tree but only out of social convention. It’s true meaning being removed entirely. Ed

C’mon Ed, it’s not originally a Christian tradition. It’s pagan. And do you think atheists don’t enjoy carol singers or Hymns?