Secular Christianity

[Roseeurekacross]

All available information that I can find in regard to belief in God and religious participation shows that the younger you are, the less likely you are to have a belief or to nominate a religion. A Pew forum study has some info here: pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/belief-in-god/

It appears to me, bearing in mind the majority views in support for abortion, contraception, gay marriage and other matters by Christians of all denominations (and again, the greater majority in younger age groups), that religion is losing a lot of ground to a more secular viewpoint. There is even a substantial majority of people who are absolutely convinced of God’s existence that do not believe in an objective morality or would use common sense and/or philosophy for guidance as opposed to their religious teachings.

The concept of a secular or cultural Jew is well known. And I am currently reading a book by Ali Rizvi called The Atheist Muslim where he claims that he is a cultural Muslim and that there are a significantly large number of Muslims who might also claim that title.

I see Christianity heading that way. I’m sure someone might have some ideas why it is happening…

Are you asking why Christianity is plunging headlong down into the proverbial frozen mists of time?

 

[josh987654321]

What I said in that post was directed at Vonsalza, not you. I didn’t make that clear enough - my apologies.

All good, I thought you were implying something toward myself and my comments.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[inocente]

The reason atheism has been, and forever will be a fringe belief is that it fails to answer both “the problem of good” and “the problem of evil”. It has to make a demur plea to a non-sequitur they label “common sense”, which is really just the residue of the religious belief within the referenced society. Without it, “common sense” is the quintessential example of circular reasoning.

I think this isn’t about atheism though. For example, this may not apply in America but here in Spain, supermarkets have displays of condoms. Lots of different brands, etc. Part of the weekly shopping.

“Prithika says: Condoms are available in most shops, supermarkets, and pharmacies as well as dispensing machines in bars, clubs and on the street outside pharmacies. They are also available from the hospital.” - pinkpangea.com/tips-women-travelers-in-spain/

There aren’t nearly enough atheists to support such volume sales. This is a predominately Catholic country. All the religious festivals are popular. Holy Week processions are packed out. So it does seem possible that a number of Christians are keeping what they like and quietly dropping what they don’t.

True, it’s a poll based on American beliefs – the link indicated that. I didn’t intend it to be taken as being world-wide because I think the changes in religious beliefs across all nations is a bridge too far for this discussion. Although if it heads off in that direction I’ve no problem.

Four hundred years ago everyone in the West believed the bible told us the whole universe revolved around us. Two hundred years ago we still believed the bible told us the universe was less than ten thousand years old, and that the Earth had been created at the same time as everything else, followed in short order by all life. Society is also vastly different from two hundred years ago. Yet Christianity is still here after two thousand years, and I think that’s because it has a great ability to change with the times and so remain relevant.

 

[Bradski]

Four hundred years ago everyone in the West believed the bible told us the whole universe revolved around us. Two hundred years ago we still believed the bible told us the universe was less than ten thousand years old, and that the Earth had been created at the same time as everything else, followed in short order by all life. Society is also vastly different from two hundred years ago. Yet Christianity is still here after two thousand years, and I think that’s because it has a great ability to change with the times and so remain relevant.

I agree to a certain extent. Although most Catholics would deny that the church has, or ever would, change to suit the times.

But I believe that Christianity is represented by the people who follow it. It is a reflection of people’s beliefs. I keep being told that a billion or so people can’t be wrong. But when one points out, as you just did, that the majority of Catholics do not follow all the teachings of the church, then where does that leave that argument?

I think, as Mike said earlier, people have more information available these days. OK, not always reliable, I’ll grant that. But nevertheless, it leads to the realisation that there are more choices available than was the case.

Rightly or wrongly, Catholics, and other denominations, are choosing to ignore some of the basic precepts of their scripture.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Rightly or wrongly, Catholics, and other denominations, are choosing to ignore some of the basic precepts of their scripture.

It was noted both by Jesus and by St. Paul that Christian unity should be highly prized. That they emphasized unity was a sign that they understood the frailty of our human nature, that we are rebellious by nature (Adam and Eve started the rebellion) and that Satan (who is legion) was adept at dividing and conquering. Yet the Church itself is a bulwark of unified doctrines even when millions of Catholics rant and rave against those doctrines, as Martin Luther and other Catholics since the Reformation have ranted and raved.

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word, that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou has sent me.” - John 17:20-21

“Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one flock, one shepherd.” (John 10:16).

“I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beseech you to walk worthily of the calling wherewith you were called, with all lowliness and meekness, with long suffering, forbearing one another in love; giving diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one Faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all” Saint Paul (Ephesians 4:2-6).

 

[mikekle]

The problem today is, far too many people want the best of both worlds, they want to be seen as a good christian person, but they also want to be a good and ‘normal’ secular person, they do not want to be associated with anything that is remotely unpopular, outdated or un-hip in the secular world.

Living in the secular world as a faithful christian was never meant to be easy or comfortable, for those that do have an easy or comfortable life and are not hated and being persecuted…good chance they are a lukewarm christian, one cannot follow Gods laws and be a model secular citizen at the same time. Jesus warned us we would be hated just like they hated him, for them to ‘hate’ us, that requires us to either believe or do things that contradict what is currently popular or hip.

 

[Vonsalza]

You are arguing against a point that no-one has made. May I suggest that you re-read the OP again.

To the contrary, absolutely no argument was posited there. Please re-read. I was merely pointing out the continued, increasing response to faith in the human species and the apparently growing rejection of “unaffiliated” thought unambiguously provided by the data you referenced.

I can, however, see where someone might be taken aback if they have an emotional investment in secularism. Their world view is unambiguously faltering and this would naturally result is some dissonance. “If my ideas are so great, why aren’t they more successful?” The data suggests folks are finding it wanting en masse.

Notwithstanding that the very information to which you have linked indicates that over the next few decades, Pew estimates that the number of people leaving Christianity will be balanced by the increase in number of people classing themselves as unaffiliated.

Fascinating interpretation, given that Pew estimates Christian growth will match population growth and “Unaffiliated” growth won’t. And that data admits to practically ignoring China, which many speculate is becoming more religious.

It’s not a point I have made, wanted to make or will make at any time. Again, re-read the OP which discusses the change in attitudes of Christians, not any change in their numbers. Then feel free to add any comments on that particular aspect of religious beliefs.

Yes, unfortunately, it is. I quote you directly:
"The numbers increase (by approximately 60 million,** which is the number that Christianity is estimated to lose**) but as the world’s population is increasing at a greater rate, the overall percentage drops slightly. (emphasis mine)

A classic example of a grenadier being undone by his own petard, I’m afraid.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Living in the secular world as a faithful christian was never meant to be easy or comfortable, for those that do have an easy or comfortable life and are not hated and being persecuted…good chance they are a lukewarm christian, one cannot follow Gods laws and be a model secular citizen at the same time. Jesus warned us we would be hated just like they hated him, for them to ‘hate’ us, that requires us to either believe or do things that contradict what is currently popular or hip.

:clapping:

 

[Bradski]

Yes, unfortunately, it is. I quote you directly:
"The numbers increase (by approximately 60 million,** which is the number that Christianity is estimated to lose**) but as the world’s population is increasing at a greater rate, the overall percentage drops slightly. (emphasis mine)

I didn’t think that I’d have to be so pedantic.

Let me be clear: As far as this thread goes, I have no interest in pursuing the reasons why the head count for Christianity is rising, falling or remaining static. I equally have no interest in whether atheists, agnostics or the unaffiliated are joining the ranks of Catholics, the Moonies or the church of the FSM.

The thread is about the reasons why Christians appear to be less inclined to follow basic Christian teachings. Inocente has given a good example. Other examples would abortion (where the largest religious group who have abortions are Catholics) and gay marriage, which most Christians now appear to support.

To reiterate: We are not talking about people *leaving *Christianity, but talking about the changing attitudes of those who remain.

I’ll be pleased to read any comments you might have on that.

 

[Vonsalza]

I didn’t think that I’d have to be so pedantic.

You make your claim against broad “religion” with data drawn exclusively from one region.

Pedantism is the minimum required when you defend a suggestion with data that doesn’t fit the population you describe. This is called a “sampling error”.

Respondents are free to respond under the assumption that you’re referring to religious population on the whole because you’ve failed to narrow the population you’re discussing to match your data - either through error or deliberate deception.

Reminds me of the discussion on echo-chambers…

 

[Vico]

All available information that I can find in regard to belief in God and religious participation shows that the younger you are, the less likely you are to have a belief or to nominate a religion. A Pew forum study has some info here: pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/belief-in-god/

It appears to me, bearing in mind the majority views in support for abortion, contraception, gay marriage and other matters by Christians of all denominations (and again, the greater majority in younger age groups), that religion is losing a lot of ground to a more secular viewpoint. There is even a substantial majority of people who are absolutely convinced of God’s existence that do not believe in an objective morality or would use common sense and/or philosophy for guidance as opposed to their religious teachings.

The concept of a secular or cultural Jew is well known. And I am currently reading a book by Ali Rizvi called The Atheist Muslim where he claims that he is a cultural Muslim and that there are a significantly large number of Muslims who might also claim that title.

I see Christianity heading that way. I’m sure someone might have some ideas why it is happening…

If there is no practice of Christian religion then those that are not practicing cannot truly be called Christians. The minimum is baptism.

 

[Bradski]

If there is no practice of Christian religion then those that are not practicing cannot truly be called Christians. The minimum is baptism.

But there are people who are self described as Christian (baptism isn’t a requirement for all denominations) who believe in God yet do not follow every single precept of their chosen denomination.

If you consider them not to be Christians, then so be it. But it’s a matter you will have to take up withe majority of (I’m your case) Catholics.

 

[Vonsalza]

All available information that I can find in regard to belief in God and religious participation shows that the younger you are, the less likely you are to have a belief or to nominate a religion. A Pew forum study has some info here: pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/belief-in-god/

So would you concede that applying your American Pew data to “belief in God and religious interpretation” in-general would be a “hasty generalization fallacy” because you didn’t say “American belief in God and religious interpretation”?

Rationally, wouldn’t any derived argument be invalid until that correction is made?

Thus, wouldn’t we be discussing “American Secular Christianity” instead?

 

[Vico]

But there are people who are self described as Christian (baptism isn’t a requirement for all denominations) who believe in God yet do not follow every single precept of their chosen denomination.

If you consider them not to be Christians, then so be it. But it’s a matter you will have to take up withe majority of (I’m your case) Catholics.

In this case, since you are making the statement, it only has the meaning per your definition of Christianity, which may or may not correspond with the reader’s definition.

 

[Bradski]

You make your claim against broad “religion” with data drawn exclusively from one region.

Pedantism is the minimum required when you defend a suggestion with data that doesn’t fit the population you describe. This is called a “sampling error”.

Respondents are free to respond under the assumption that you’re referring to religious population on the whole because you’ve failed to narrow the population you’re discussing to match your data - either through error or deliberate deception.

Perhaps I should remind you what I have already said:

True, it’s a poll based on American beliefs – the link indicated that. I didn’t intend it to be taken as being world-wide because I think the changes in religious beliefs across all nations is a bridge too far for this discussion. Although if it heads off in that direction I’ve no problem.

Yet again, if you have anything to add to the discussion, I’d be pleased to read it.

 

[Bradski]

In this case, since you are making the statement, it only has the meaning per your definition of Christianity, which may or may not correspond with the reader’s definition.

Ye gods and little fishes…how difficult is this…

Then please supply your OWN definition and reply accordingly. Maybe you think that anyone who doesn’t correspond with your personal definition of ‘Christian’ isn’t actually a Christian so the question is moot. Although that strikes me a a No True Scotsman fallacy.

And I am not defining what constitutes a Christian in any case. I am simply using people’s own description of themselves. See the poll.

 

[abucs]

Christian education leads one to Christianity.

Godless education leads one to Godlessness.

Western countries have made the mistake of mandating Godless education as the state form of education and calling that neutral.

The ethics of political correctness (taught in such schools) has replaced Christianity as the mode of ethics of interaction. Again this has mistakenly been presented as neutral.

This is the drift that you speak about.

It will continue until it breaks and people discover it was a mistake.

 

[Elf01]

But there are people who are self described as Christian (baptism isn’t a requirement for all denominations) who believe in God yet do not follow every single precept of their chosen denomination.

100% of us do not follow the teachings of our respective Churches all of the time. We are all sinners.

In terms of those that don’t try, I would guess that they either genuinely have trouble understanding the teaching (the Catholic teaching on contraception is a difficult one) or don’t want to admit that they have done, or are doing, something wrong.

 

[Vico]

Ye gods and little fishes…how difficult is this…

Then please supply your OWN definition and reply accordingly. Maybe you think that anyone who doesn’t correspond with your personal definition of ‘Christian’ isn’t actually a Christian so the question is moot. Although that strikes me a a No True Scotsman fallacy.

And I am not defining what constitutes a Christian in any case. I am simply using people’s own description of themselves. See the poll.

OK. I agree with “religion is losing a lot of ground to a more secular viewpoint.” that you wrote. The survey was not what I was commenting on but Christian version of cultural Jew and Atheist Muslim. I would not call those categories religious but secular for those that identify with a Jewish or Muslim state. There are some countries constituted with Christian law.

Here is a list of countries where the heads of state must be a particular religion or not clergy:

pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/07/22/in-30-countries-heads-of-state-must-belong-to-a-certain-religion/

There are countries with Halakha and/or Sharia law in use.

 

[Vonsalza]

OK. I agree with “religion is losing a lot of ground to a more secular viewpoint.” that you wrote.

I’m not sure the facts provide that out, though. The other Pew data suggested that the religious “unaffiliated” are shrinking as a percentage of population. Christianity is static by the same metric (with an obvious problem of the metric ignoring China) and faith, on the whole, is growing.

The OP even dishonestly argues that the “hasty generalization” he committed wasn’t so, because all you had to do to was click his link, then carefully parse through it to find the sample description that wasn’t referred to in any way in the actual post or the face page it linked.

Perhaps faith is secularizing in the US. On a global scale (the only one that really matters IMO), it’s not. The data suggests quite the opposite - secular thought is likely being rejected in favor of faith. The notion that it could be reasoned by a comparison of global political systems requiring faith for empowerment is tangential and arbitrary - which requires further rationalizing.

The OP is at least erroneous, perhaps disingenuous.