Secular third orders with full habits

[BVM_1221]

Curious, are there any of these? I know such a thing was perfectly common back in the long day but how about now?

Certainly not for the Confraternity of Penitents…:nope:

penitents.org/

I think ANY lay Catholic Lay Person should be allowed to wear a habit on special occasions, with permission from their Priest and/or Spiritual Advisor.:yup:

I mean…does the term “witness” mean anything anymore? With so many Priests dressing in secular clothing more and more of the time outside church?:sad_yes:

 

[Victorious]

Certainly not for the Confraternity of Penitents…:nope:

penitents.org/

I think ANY lay Catholic Lay Person should be allowed to wear a habit on special occasions, with permission from their Priest and/or Spiritual Advisor.:yup:

I mean…does the term “witness” mean anything anymore? With so many Priests dressing in secular clothing more and more of the time outside church?:sad_yes:

You say that any Catholic lay person should be allowed to wear a habit on special occasions, on the grounds that this is a witness. But to what are you witnessing by wearing a habit without belonging to an order? There is enough confusion out there as it is. If it’s bad for priests to be indistinguishable from laymen, isn’t it equally bad for laymen to be indistinguishable from priests and religious?

 

[barb_finnegan]

When you “were”? Did you leave before profession or did you ask for permission to leave?

I only ask, because it’s important for people to understand that profession into the Secular Franciscan Order is binding until death, unless the person asks permission to leave. The permission may be granted by the Minister and his or her council, but it must be recorded that the person has left the order. Otherwise, the person is simply an inactive member of the order, but remains a Franciscan until death and is bound to keep the promise that he made to follow the rule.

We do not want those who are not Franciscans to think that the Secular Franciscan Order is an organization like the Legion of Mary where people can join and leave at will. It is a commitment to a way of life until death, unless one leaves using the proper channels. The profession into the Secular Franciscan Order is a public liturgical act equivalent to the profession of the Friars, nuns and sisters who make up the Franciscan family. The difference is in the rule, not in the seriousness of the commitment. The difference between an SFO and an OSF is that the SFO makes a solemn promise to observe the Gospel according to the Rule of the Secular Franciscan Order and the OSF make three vows: chastity, poverty and obedience according to the Rule of the Friars Minor and the Constitutions of the congregation.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I ended up having to ‘quit’ the Order because I disagreed with the direction that my fraternity was taking. Besides that, they were going to have an election that was clearly invalid-i.e. no representatives of the next group in authority were present. The fraternity did not like taking orders from any one in the provincial council, and so they were going to go off and ‘do their own thing’.

I stood up at the meeting and told them, ‘You can’t do this’. Then they ignored me and called ME ‘disobedient’. So I got up, gathered my things together and walked out-I knew right then that the people in charge of the fraternity would not listen to me anyway. Those on the fraternity council were all ‘cronies’ of the woman in charge of the fraternity (family members and friends).

I maintained a ‘tenuous’ association with the Franciscans after 1988, then in 1992, when I was a member of an ‘Interprovincial Council’, I had to reveal that I had not attended a meeting of my old fraternity since 1988.

Two years later, when I joined the ODCS (that’s Secular Order of Discalced Carmelites, BTW-not ‘Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder’ ), I wrote and obtained a letter from the now-Regional Minister releasing me from my profession in the Franciscans.

 

[Shoshana]

Two years later, when I joined the ODCS (that’s Secular Order of Discalced Carmelites, BTW-not ‘Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder’ ), I wrote and obtained a letter from the now-Regional Minister releasing me from my profession in the Franciscans.

Are you professed now? I am just beginning my journey in the ocds…

 

[hartleymartin]

This sounds a little sad. Surely some agreement could be reached for Secular Third Orders to wear a habit with the surplice during sacred liturgies and the mass.

 

[barb_finnegan]

Are you professed now? I am just beginning my journey in the ocds…

I only made ‘temporary profession’ in the ODCS in 1997. I was not allowed to make final profession (or as it is usually called ‘Final Promise’).

It’s kind of a long story, so I’ll give you the "Reader’s Digest’ version: I had to undergo a rigorous examination, both verbal and written, by the priest spiritual director and the formation director to determine if I had a vocation to the Order. (I was in it for six years at this time. I was in the first group of people to join the group when it began in 1994) As a result of the ‘examinations’, which were hard on me both emotionally and spiritually, I did not ‘measure up’ to Carmelite standards.

I was not very good in ‘verbalizing’ what little spiritual life I had. The questions they asked me were very difficult; plus, they did not like my infrequency in going to confession. (I couldn’t find a decent confessor in my area-what did they expect? )

In the end, the priest-director suggested to me that I should join the Confraternity of the Scapular instead. So I was ‘charitably dismissed’ from the OCDS; the last meeting I attended was in February 2000; the very day that I would have made my ‘Final Promise’.

I bear the priest-director and the formation director no grudge. I am still friendly with them. When my mother died in 2004, I went from the hospital to the formation director’s house, where I bawled my brains out on her shoulder, and she in turn let me use her phone to make calls to friends and relatives. She and some of the members I knew came to the wake and the funeral Mass. She is in Perpetual Adoration with me-her hour follows mine, that’s how I met her. Right now she is ill with non-Hodgkins’ lymphoma, so please pray for her. The priest-director goes to her house to help when needed-he doesn’t have a regular parish, he goes to wherever he’s needed in the diocese.

So you’re in the Buffalo group, I see? I knew some of the members when they would come to the annual retreat. Nice people! I’ve also been to the monastery once-in March 1998. I have the book they put out for their 75th anniversary, and I’m on their mailing list for the novenas to St. Joseph, Our Lady of Mount Carmel and St. Therese.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

Any baptized Catholic may wear an Alb. If you chose to wear one in public, you could. You might well be stared at, and I suspect a lot of people would wonder why you were doing that. I also suspect that many devout people would be wondering about your motives.

The idea of wearing distinctive garments is NOT to make you feel special. It is to identify you as a cleric (lay or professed), a religious, etc. If you wish to wear it to bring attention to yourself, then I would seriously question your motivations.

Personally, I wear a cross with a dove on it, on my lapel. It is about 1.5 inches long, and is easily seen by anyone. I wear it to identify myself as a Christian. If anyone asks about it, I identify myself as a “Catholic Christian”.

 

[JReducation]

This sounds a little sad. Surely some agreement could be reached for Secular Third Orders to wear a habit with the surplice during sacred liturgies and the mass.

I cannot speak for the other Secular Orders. I can only explain the Secular Franciscan Order. The Secular Franciscans are a real order of Pontifical Right, just like the Jesuits, the Vincentians, Capuchins, Carmelites, Dominicans, Poor Clares, Benedictines, etc.

They have a rule that has a Papal Bull on it. The rule explicitly prohibits the use of a habit, except for the Tau and for those fraternities that have had this tradition for 100 years. Because the rule has a Papal Bull, no Catholic may ever question it. It is what it is. It is not sad. It is not glad. It is the will of the Pontiff. We must accept it as such. No one may appeal it either. That is a violation fo Canon Law. Canon Law says that there is no appeal beyond the Pontiff.

Unless another pope comes around and changes the rule, it will remain in effect.

I believe that no other secular order has its own rule nor is any other secular order an Order of Pontifical Right. As I understand it, Lay Dominicans and Secular Carmelites are truly third orders. This means that they are attached to the friars and the friars are their superiors. They follow the same statutes as the friars with modifications. This is not the case with the Secular Francisans. The Secular Franciscan Order (SFO) is not attached to the friars or the nuns. It does not owe the friars or nuns any obedience. It is not a part of their order. It is an autonomous Franciscan Order founded by St. Francis with the intention of making them autonomous from the start.

At some point, to protect them from heresy, the popes placed then under the jurisdiction of the friars. However, this was abused. The friars took control of the government and the Secular Franciscans (some of whom were deacons, priests, bishops and even popes, not just lay people) submitted to the friars. In a way it was good, because it protected the Order from heresy. In another way it was horrible, because it promoted learned helplessness. The Secular Franciscans wouldn’t make a move or make decisions without consulting the friars.

The Franciscan family is still trying to get over this. The friars are still trying to push the chicks out of the nest and they keep haning on for dear life, as if they couldn’t run their own order without the friars. Paul VI simply said that the friars had to serve as the spiritual directors, not as the superiors. That could be any friar, an ordained friar or a non-ordained friar. As long as the friar is in vows, even temporary vows, he can be a Spiritual Assistant to the Secular Franciscans.

I don’t believe that the other Third Orders are quite as autonomous and I don’t think that they are of Pontifical Right; but those who know about the Dominicans and Carmelites may know this better than I do. I hope one of them will chime in on this one.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

I ended up having to ‘quit’ the Order because I disagreed with the direction that my fraternity was taking. Besides that, they were going to have an election that was clearly invalid-i.e. no representatives of the next group in authority were present. The fraternity did not like taking orders from any one in the provincial council, and so they were going to go off and ‘do their own thing’.

I stood up at the meeting and told them, ‘You can’t do this’. Then they ignored me and called ME ‘disobedient’. So I got up, gathered my things together and walked out-I knew right then that the people in charge of the fraternity would not listen to me anyway. Those on the fraternity council were all ‘cronies’ of the woman in charge of the fraternity (family members and friends).

I maintained a ‘tenuous’ association with the Franciscans after 1988, then in 1992, when I was a member of an ‘Interprovincial Council’, I had to reveal that I had not attended a meeting of my old fraternity since 1988.

Two years later, when I joined the ODCS (that’s Secular Order of Discalced Carmelites, BTW-not ‘Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder’ ), I wrote and obtained a letter from the now-Regional Minister releasing me from my profession in the Franciscans.

I didn’t mean to pry into you life. However, I do thank you for this last sentence that I bolded. It is important the people understand that profession in a secular order is a serious thing and that one does not just walk away from it; but there is formal precedure for entering and leaving, just like any order.

In fact, even when someone just walks away, it is very difficult to dismiss them from the order. Each jurisdiction has rules about this. The local ministers can’t just write someone off the books, because they have not seen them in 20 years. The person remains part of that fraternity until he or she asks for a transfer or asks for permission to leave.

Some people think that a Secular Order ranks right there with the Legion of Mary or some other pious association. It’s important for them to understand that it’s a vocation like any other vocation and that once a commitment is made for life, it is binding until one leaves legally. Thank you for helping everyone understand that seriousness of the action.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[thomas_jd]

Lay Carmelites may be buried in the full habit.

 

[LARSCOUT0311]

This is a little off topic but is there anywhere or can anyone post the orders that have secular “branches”? In a separate post of course.

 

[JReducation]

This is a little off topic but is there anywhere or can anyone post the orders that have secular “branches”? In a separate post of course.

Why not on the vocation thread?

Remember, not every religious community is an order. Most are not. Actually, there are very few religious orders. Most are religious congregations.

The term “Third Order” was bastardized over the centuries. Originally, it was meant to apply to the third order that St. Francis founded. Eventually, it was applied to every secular association related either to an order or a congregation. That’s probably why the orders stopped calling them Third Order, just my guess.

Some congregations have affiliates.

Some congregations have lay associations, such as the Lay Missionaries of Charity

Some orders also have lay associations referred to as orders, but they are not autonomous orders.

Some secular orders are autonomous orders that are part of a larger religious family, such as the Secular Franciscans.

The Benedictines and their branches (Cistercians, Trappists, and Camaldolese) do not have a secular order. However, many abbeys and monasteries have secular oblates. These are men and women who are commmitted to living according to the spirit of St. Benedict. They are not an order, because each “cell” is autonomous. However, as I understand it, they have some fraternal relations with each other and often gather for retreats, fraternity, or just fun. But they don’t share a common government as the associations, affiliates and secular orders do.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[LARSCOUT0311]

Hahahah I meant any of you knowledgable folks able to post the secular orders. For instance if the Redmptorists have a secular order or such? Like I PM’ed JR it wasn’t until I came across this post that I realized there were even Secular Orders. I have only been in the Church since 2008 but because of this post I have actually made contact with Seculars Franciscans in my area and they have responded. Just wondering besides Dominicans, Discalced Carmelites, Secular Franciscans what other secular orders are there so that people like me can get involved. Thanks guys/gals.

 

[JReducation]

Hahahah I meant any of you knowledgable folks able to post the secular orders. For instance if the Redmptorists have a secular order or such? Like I PM’ed JR it wasn’t until I came across this post that I realized there were even Secular Orders. I have only been in the Church since 2008 but because of this post I have actually made contact with Seculars Franciscans in my area and they have responded. Just wondering besides Dominicans, Discalced Carmelites, Secular Franciscans what other secular orders are there so that people like me can get involved. Thanks guys/gals.

There are the Benedictine Oblates, the Lay Missionaries of Charity, the Marianists Associates, the Legionaires have Regnun Christi, I’m sure there are more.

However, you can only belong to one. Canon Law does not allow you to make profession in more than one community.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[albertziggy]

Paul VI simply said that the friars had to serve as the spiritual directors, not as the superiors. That could be any friar, an ordained friar or a non-ordained friar. As long as the friar is in vows, even temporary vows, he can be a Spiritual Assistant to the Secular Franciscans.

Br. JR, OSF

To add to what Br. JR had stated, the role of the Spiritual Assistant had been extended to other groups in the recent years as well. Aside from Franciscan friars, a qualified Franciscan Religious of the Second or Third Order, or a Secular Franciscan could also serve as Spiritual Assistant.

In Christ,

albertziggy

 

[EvelynEVF]

Br JR, you know more about the SFO than half the SFOs I’ve met

Personally, as an SFO myself, I’m quite content to have the Tau as my habit rather than something larger. I am not a Poor Clare wannabe, nor a friar-ette. I am a Secular, and I wear my secular clothes appropriate to my secular life, with an obvious Tau on my person somewhere. Always my ring, but also often a pendant (the ubiquitous wooden one, or a gold one with the crossed arms on it) and sometimes a beautiful San Damiano crucifix, which isn’t the habit but is distinctively Franciscan. My wooden Tau has teeth marks on it from a toddler I babysit

Of course if anything else is ever mandated, I will wear it cheerfully.

I just wanted to point out that some of us are faithful to our vocations and to the magisterium, and don’t feel like we need a “full” habit to live effectively.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

There are the Benedictine Oblates, the Lay Missionaries of Charity, the Marianists Associates, the Legionaires have Regnun Christi, I’m sure there are more.

However, you can only belong to one. Canon Law does not allow you to make profession in more than one community.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

You can be an Oblate and a member of a “Third Order” (unless things have recently changed )

 

[Bookcat]

Secular Orders are by nature…
*
Secular*

That is their vocation. They are not to be “like religious” even though they may be part of the Order as secular members (and share in the Chrism of the Order in a secular manner)

So any “full habit” that may exist still is ordinarily not worn.

Some would have a small or less than small scapular which is worn under ones clothing. Such would be the “ordinary habit” of a tertiary.

And have a ceremonial Scapular (large scapular) worn on outside of ones clothes for meetings, processions and perhaps retreats.

Though some may have in certain locals a “larger habit” usually a tunic with a scapular …which is worn during meetings…for such has been part of the local culture for a long time.

And of course at death…

Centuries ago…when what we call a habit…was very similar to ordinary daily clothes…like when ordinary folks had scapular like garments in daily life…some wore the larger form in daily life…it would not look odd.

Today tertiaries have in addition to the above…often some other exterior sign fitting with their secular vocation that is a particular cross (like the Dominican or the Tau used by the Franciscans ) or a pin with the coat of arms etc.

 

[Bookcat]

You can be an Oblate and a member of a “Third Order” (unless things have recently changed )

Often this is not permitted by the Monastery of the oblation.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Often this is not permitted by the Monastery of the oblation.

OK.
I am sure a lay association would probably be OK just about everywhere, though