Secularised society 'not entirely a bad thing': Ireland

  • Thread starter Thread starter SpeakInSilence
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

SpeakInSilence

Guest
irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0324/1224313823807.html
GROWING SECULARISATION in Irish society was “not entirely a bad thing”, the Catholic Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin has said. “Very few of us would wish to return completely to the type of society many of us grew up in, where the church dominated so much of Irish culture, and where the bishops and the clergy dominated the church,” he said.
Speaking to the Catholic Primary School Management Association annual conference in Dublin yesterday he stressed however that religion must not become “the poor relation in a changed and more secularised society”.
I know this is a couple of days old, but I thought I’d share it anyway.

This kind of talk seems dangerous. You’d think that Archbishop Martin could have seen that secularization is what caused this crisis in the Church to begin with.
 
Isn’t a culture dominated by clergy and the Church what we want? That “is” what Christ wanted after all. To evangelize the entire world. You can’t do that very well in a “secular” society. Once the current generation of clergy retires we can have a new wave (prayerfully all getting their seminary done in Rome and not at Maynooth as a friend of mine from NI hears nothing but bad/liberal things about maynooth). Then Ireland will be on its way back to its former glory.
 
I don’t know anything about the Archbishop. But, what I do know is that the 2 year visitation of Ireland just ended. And the consensus seems to be that the Vatican is going to be throwing a lot of Bishops out. One way they’re going to do this is by reducing the number of dioceses from 7. IE: some dioceses will be wiped out by being combined with another… and my bet would all of these dioceses (if there are 1, 2, or 3, or even 4) will all likely have a Bishop/Archbishop that the Vatican wants to get rid of/ demote to an ex-Bishop.

On that level, it seems foolish for Archbishop Martin to say this. Knowing what kind of statements Pope Benedict has for secularism, I would be as bold as saying: this could well be a “parting remark” made by the Archbishop.

He knows he’s gonna get the can, so he feels he might as well go down swinging, still advocating a very liberal and unorthodox view.

Once again I didn’t know who Archbishop Martin was until I read this, I could be entirely wrong… but that’s my take from what I know
 
I don’t want Archbishop Martin to get relieved. He has done some great things for Ireland, but secularization has caused all the issues in their country. One could argue that every event that hampered Ireland has been secular.
 
I don’t want Archbishop Martin to get relieved. He has done some great things for Ireland, but secularization has caused all the issues in their country. One could argue that every event that hampered Ireland has been secular.
Yes, I would agree. The clergy seem to act like their hands are tied behind their back, whenever they talk about controversial issues e.g. the sex abuse scandal, SS marriage and secularisation. It’s as if they feel they will offend people, particularly lapsed catholics, whereas catholics would prefer that they stuck up for our faith and gave ‘a’ catholic point of view.
 
This kind of talk seems dangerous. You’d think that Archbishop Martin could have seen that secularization is what caused this crisis in the Church to begin with.
I don’t understand. Are you referring to the sex abuse crisis?
 
Yes, I’m referring to the sex abuse scandal. I don’t think it was the priest’s devout beliefs in Christ that led them to these scandals. It was allowing themselves to be consumed by secular ideas that caused this.

It was the liberalization of the Church that made it so wide spread, and caused a slow disintegration of the Church.

I think this is why Pope Benedict is calling for people to go back to traditional values. In his, “Letter to the Catholics of Ireland”, Pope Benedict said,
In recent decades, however, the Church in your country has had to confront new and serious challenges to the faith arising from the rapid transformation and secularization of Irish society.
Fast-paced social change has occurred, often adversely affecting people’s traditional adherence to Catholic teaching and values. All too often, the sacramental and devotional practices that sustain faith and enable it to grow, such as frequent confession, daily prayer and annual retreats, were neglected. Significant too was the tendency during this period, also on the part of priests and religious, to adopt ways of thinking and assessing secular realities without sufficient reference to the Gospel. The programme of renewal proposed by the Second Vatican Council was sometimes misinterpreted and indeed, in the light of the profound social changes that were taking place, it was far from easy to know how best to implement it.** In particular, there was a well-intentioned but misguided tendency to avoid penal approaches to canonically irregular situations. It is in this overall context that we must try to understand the disturbing problem of child sexual abuse, which has contributed in no small measure to the weakening of faith and the loss of respect for the Church and her teachings.**

It they were to reference scripture that these priest should have been dealt with RIGHT away, and these scandals should have never happened.

EDT:1 Corinthians 5

1** It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you**, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,[a]** so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”**
 
Yes, I’m referring to the sex abuse scandal. I don’t think it was the priest’s devout beliefs in Christ that led them to these scandals. It was allowing themselves to be consumed by secular ideas that caused this.

It was the liberalization of the Church that made it so wide spread, and caused a slow disintegration of the Church.

That’s not only ridiculous, it’s offensive to victims and does not address the issues of the crisis at all.

Pedophilia is a mental illness, and the evils of pedophilia were allowed, in some circumstances, to be tolerated and ignored by the incompetant leadership of Bishops.

It wasn’t Vatican II.
It wasn’t the 60’s.
It wasn’t liberals.
It wasn’t secularism.
I wasn’t homosexuals.
It wasn’t the oversexualization of the youth.
It wasn’t even the Devil, though I am sure he made use of the evil.

It was human mental illness, criminal conduct, and misguided efforts to avoid “scandal”.
 
I don’t think we as Catholics need to look down on secularism. Secularism allowed the Church to thrive in the early US when European States were restricting the practices of the Church in a bid for power.

Secularism can be good for everyone - Catholics included. As long we understand and apply secularism in its proper context we should encourage secularism.
 
I don’t think we as Catholics need to look down on secularism. Secularism allowed the Church to thrive in the early US when European States were restricting the practices of the Church in a bid for power.

Secularism can be good for everyone - Catholics included. As long we understand and apply secularism in its proper context we should encourage secularism.
I’ve posted over 500 posts here, but I will always remember this one that I made back in May of 2011. My 100th post:

Why would I want secularism to decline?!?!?!? BECAUSE IT IS THE WILL OF THE VICAR OF CHRIST, IT IS THE WILL OF POPE BENEDICT HIMSELF

Forgive me for all caps… but I will summarize the first 10 results for a google search of “Pope Benedict XVI secularism”:
  1. Pope B16 criticizes tide of secularism in the U.K.
  2. Pope B16 says atheism, secularism responsible for environmental destruction
  3. Pope B16 warns of “aggressive secularism” in U.K.
  4. Pope B16 praises U.S., but warns of secular challenges
  5. Pope B16 lambasts aggressive secularism in Spain
  6. Pope B16 sees aggressive secularism in Spain
  7. Pope B16 lashes out against secular justice
  8. For the pope, a nation that turns away from God entirely has nothing to keep it from treating people as disposable means. TITLE: He was talking about Hitler not Dawkins
  9. Pope B16 warns secularism can infest the Church
  10. New Evangelization needed to answer crisis of secularism, Pope says

I love my German Shepherd!!!​

Those were the top 10 results 10 months ago. Here are the current results for “Pope Benedict XVI secularism”:
  1. Pope Benedict XVI meets cardinals to battle growing secularism.
  2. Pope hits out at ‘radical secularism’
  3. Pope Benedict warns of secularism- words clearly relevant to American Politics
  4. same as # 2
  5. [Pope B16] is a convincing witness in the face of radical secularism
  6. Pope warns U.S. against ‘radical secularism’
  7. Secularism: Pope Benedict has hit the mark [on secularism in Britain]
  8. Pope warns U.S. Bishops on threat of ‘radical secularism’ in America
  9. Pope to U.S. Bishops: secularism threatens liberty, Church must respond
  10. Pope says Christianity, not secularism, builds good societies
Secularism can be good?
We should encourage secularism?
We shouldn’t look down on something that is radical, threatens our liberty, and builds bad societies?

And this is just an exercise in us being a sound-byte culture who isn’t actually going to read all 10 of those articles. So, I’m sure the Pope gives PLENTY of more specific arguments against it in all of those.

So, just in case you didn’t know or FULLY understand what Speak in Silence meant when he/she said: “Take that up with the current Pope”. Well, I hope this post has shed some light on that. On how opposing your post is to what His Holiness is teaching.

**LONG LIVE POPE BENEDICT XVI!!! ** :amen:

**I LOVE MY GERMAN SHEPERD!!! **:extrahappy::dancing::clapping:

Papal Purple FTW!!!
 
I am not Irish (except by heritage), but if I might venture a guess…

Hilaire Belloc used to say that whenever he spent a long time around priests and nuns, he understood the anti-clericals much better. Is it something to do with clericalism and a worldly clergy? Priests in traditional Irish culture had a lot of influence—more, and different, from in any other Catholic culture—and, well, “power corrupts”.
 
It wasn’t Vatican II.
It wasn’t the 60’s.
It wasn’t liberals.
It wasn’t secularism.
I wasn’t homosexuals.
It wasn’t the oversexualization of the youth.
It wasn’t even the Devil, though I am sure he made use of the evil.
It was human mental illness, criminal conduct, and misguided efforts to avoid “scandal”.
Amen.
 
THanks, I’m glad to see that some would agree.

I love the Church and want the best for it and, indeed, for it to grow, but to do so regarding the sex abuse crisis, the Church needs to look inward- not outward for the causes, crimes, and maintanence policies that caused the crisis.

I also believe it didn’t suddenly start happening in the 50’s. I don’t know how far back it goes but I am sure that shame and the social dynamics of the times kept these dark things from being exposed.
 
irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0324/1224313823807.html

This kind of talk seems dangerous. You’d think that Archbishop Martin could have seen that secularization is what caused this crisis in the Church to begin with.
Secularization did not cause a crisis in the Church - the criminal behavior of some priests and religious and a cover-up of that criminal behavior by senior churchmen did. If anything, secularization allowed these dark deeds to be brought out into the open.

I tracked down the Archbishop’s actual address on the Dublin Archdiocese website and frankly I find nothing ‘dangerous’ in what he said. Here’s and excerpt:
CATHOLIC PRIMARY SCHOOLS MANAGEMENT ASSOCIATION CONFERENCE 2012
Speaking Notes of
Most Rev. Diarmuid Martin
Archbishop of Dublin and Primate of Ireland
Radisson Dublin Airport Hotel, 23rd March 2012
Any reflection today on the school system in Ireland and on the place of Catholic Education has to take account of the cultural change that is taking place in Ireland. The role of religion in Irish society has changed and will continue to change. How we understand that change is important in determining the type of society we wish to have in Ireland in the future. The questions involved are too important to be left to polemics and ideology alone. Ireland needs mature debate to assess that change. A future Ireland needs people of different visions who can enter into mature dialogue and not just repeat preconceived positions.
The change in Irish society and the change in the life of the Church in Ireland are linked together. There is a growing secularisation in Irish society. This is not entirely a bad thing, if we understand the complex phenomenon called secularisation correctly. Very few of us would wish to return completely to the type of society many of us grew up in, where the Church dominated so much of Irish culture, and where the bishops and the clergy dominated the Church. Irish society and the Church in Ireland have changed and it must be said that the change has in great part been good. Equally we need to remember that our past also contains elements which if we were to loose them it would only be to our detriment.
I hasten immediately to add that I am not saying that the contribution of the Church should be replaced by a secular one. What I wish to affirm is the fact that in many ways our older culture was not always one which in the long term really strengthened the Church. We may have thought that it did. In many ways we felt that the strength of the Irish Church was in its numbers. But those numbers at times hid a faith and a commitment that was not as strong as many had imagined. They hid the fact that the faith was not being nourished sufficiently. They hid the fact that the faith was not being nourished in the best possible way to address the changing culture. Change is characteristic of our society. There is no way we can turn back to a different understanding of society. We have to find a pattern of life which enables us to cope with change.
When we as people of faith talk about the question of religion in a contemporary society the temptation is to go on the defensive. Some simply condemn the change. In other cases we appear as trying to justify our presence; we seem to be trying to defend a corner for ourselves within a secular society in which the secular dominates. We should rather start out from the point of view that religion has contributed to, continues to contribute to, and will continue to contribute to Irish society, as it contributes to any other society in the world. It is not that religion must become the poor relation in a changed and more secularised society. We should be stressing that a pluralist society, as any other society in history, benefits from the presence of religion. We should not forget or deny what was wrong. We have, however, to be more confident in ourselves about the contribution we make to our society through being men and women of faith and within and through our faith communities.
Full
He knows he’s gonna get the can, so he feels he might as well go down swinging, still advocating a very liberal and unorthodox view.
The notion that Archbishop Martin is ‘gonna get the can’ is way off, I’d say. He is not ‘very liberal’ and neither is he ‘unorthodox’. From what I learn from my wife’s Irish family, he was purposely sent to Ireland by Pope Benedict to clean house and he now commands respect across the country for the way he has dealt with the clerical abuse crisis in his diocese. He may move on to other things but canning him would be counter-productive.
 
Living in Ireland and hearing his soundbytes regularly, I think I know what he is trying to say - though I may be wrong I will freely admit.

He recently made comments that suggested he wanted the wishy-washy Catholics in Ireland to either be in or out of the Church - he was referring in particular to what he called the “social” sacraments. In other words, the charade that goes on here with the hatch, match and dispatch ceremonies- people that are Catholic in name only, but yet want the big day out for their family. I can understand his frustration, though at the same time, whether it is better to deny people the opportunity of receiving God’s grace through the sacraments, I’m not sure.

He also recently said it might be a good thing if the Catholic patronage of schools was taken away, as our current government is moving in that direction. The majority would currently be Catholic schools, but again, the Catholicity of their pupils and staff is questionable. Here I think he is hoping to get rid of the Catholic in name only schools, and instead let the Church focus on creating real Catholic schools that Catholic parents choose to send their children to to receive an orthodox Catholic education.

So saying that secularised society mightn’t be a bad thing - I think he means, let’s have these Catholics in name only identify themselves with one camp or the other - once and for all. As Elijah in 1 Kings asked the people were they with the false god Baal or were they with the one true God - it was make your mind up time for them, and he asked them to stop hobbling between the two, to be bold enough to make a decision and give a wholehearted commitment to it. He wasn’t afraid of who might be lost by their decision.

We have so much liberal thinking that has infiltrated the Church here at the highest levels - I have witnessed it myself on numerous occasions - pastoral councils, diocesan councils, Bishop’s advisors, seminary teachers - it would make you sick. I would hope that the Archbishop is saying - look, decide which camp you are in, and adhere to it wholeheartedly, because saying you are Catholic but believing the Church needs to change its laws on morality, women priests, mortal sin or whatever, etc etc is doing untold damage to the Church in Ireland. I believe he is hoping to shed these “Catholics” that are wearing down the Church and hopefully leave it with the core faithful. The Church / State relationship that prevailed for years here has unfortunately done the Church no favours.

Whether he is right to take this strong approach, I don’t know. The media has latched on to many of his comments, and out of context, he sometimes appears to be fighting against the Church, and of course the media love that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top