Secularism and atheism are more of a threat than Islam will ever be.

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ibkc said:
However, I stand by what I said. There is a huge Muslim presence in Europe, and most of them remain religious. Are you denying that?
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Would you consider, for example, 1.6 million out of 60 million ‘huge’?
The majority of native Europeans have abandoned Christianity to some extent - are you denying that?
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Hardly something to bother me, obviously.
take it up with Melanie Philips and Mark Steyn, both Europeans who have analyzed the actual numbers and come to the conclusion I presented.
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To think, there was a time that I used to enjoy Melanie’s articles - why, apart from admiration at the fact that they’ve found an export market for their product, am I supposed to be vaguely impressed?
 
East_and_West said:
The communists in the Soviety Union didn’t believe in God and they killed millions.
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as there is vareity in religion, there too is variety in secularism.

muslims kill for religion, not catholics.

communists kill, not secular humanists.
 
AgnosTheist said:
as there is vareity in religion, there too is variety in secularism.

muslims kill for religion, not catholics.

communists kill, not secular humanists.
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All four groups have killed. Catholics and Muslims have killed in the name of God and their beliefs. Although, Catholics no longer tolerate this behaviour.
 
Kaninchen said:
Would you consider, for example, 1.6 million out of 60 million ‘huge’?
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If the majority of the 1.6 million are religious and practicing, while the majority of the 60 million are non-religious at best, and antipathetic to Christianity at worst, in a culture that was formerly strongly Christian, yes, that’s ‘huge’. That’s a big cultural shift. Why do you think the Archbishop of Canterbury even entertained the idea of allowing facets of Sharia law in the UK?
The majority of native Europeans have abandoned Christianity to some extent - are you denying that?
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Hardly something to bother me, obviously.
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Then what is it about this discussion makes you so angry and hostile?
 
AgnosTheist said:
Lets look at this from another angle.
  1. Who is harder to convert to christianity, a muslim or a secular humanist?
  2. Who gives/gave more contribution to human advancement, the muslims or the secular humanists?
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  1. Given that God does the converting, I’d say they’re about equal.
  2. Secular humanists.
I don’t feel the same physical threat from individual secular humanists than I do individual Muslims. There aren’t many secular humanists committing acts of terrorism in the name of secular humanism. Having said that however, we have to define what a threat is. You probably wouldn’t agree that a threat to someone’s “soul” or eternal destiny is on par with a threat to their life, correct? Please forgive me if I am being presumptuous, but I assume from your profile and posts that you don’t believe in God or that, at least, you do not give much thought to spiritual things.

For the Christian, the philosophy of secular humanism is definitely the most serious threat to the spiritual health of the world because it distracts people from God and the spiritual life. For Christians, this life is nothing compared to eternal life with God; therefore, threats to our lives from terrorists are inconsequential as compared with threats to our spiritual lives. As Christ said, do not fear the one who can harm the body, but fear the one who can harm the soul (paraphrazed).

Muslims are not converting Christians wholesale, but the materialistic culture in the U.S. and Europe, which is perpetuated by secular humanism has millions of “converts” whose eternal souls, from the Chrisian perspective, are in grave peril.
 
MH84 said:
All four groups have killed. Catholics and Muslims have killed in the name of God and their beliefs. Although, Catholics no longer tolerate this behaviour.
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in the past yes, but now only the muslims are doing that.
 
The threat is in ideologies. An ideology is a threat when it threatens my life, convictions, freedom and dignity. If i have to compromise any of these , then the ideololgy is a threat.
 
East_and_West said:
Are the Chinese still forcing abortions? If they are I would say that communists are still killing as well.
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i was talking about religious violence.

with secular violence, humanists are still smudge-free. so who cares about communism. its like making a catholic guilty for the crimes of a muslim.
 
Wow, I really enjoy how a majority of the finger-pointing in this topic happens to be at people based on their religious beliefs! Has no one considered that the extremist version of anything is bad?

Also, for the few who are partaking in the generalization of Muslims, stop kidding yourselves - yes, many of the terrorists we see today are Muslim. But not all Muslims are terrorists. The Wahabi faction if Islam makes up a very small percentage of the overall Muslim community. Someone brought up American based gangs in another topic, and how they’ve killed just as many (if not more) American citizens than Islamic terrorists. Of course, since 75% of our country is Christian, people don’t seem so quick to associate this bad behavior with their religion.

Stop being so hypocritical and realize that immoral behavior isn’t taught by a religion that doesn’t happen to be yours.
 
AgnosTheist said:
i was talking about religious violence.

with secular violence, humanists are still smudge-free. so who cares about communism. its like making a catholic guilty for the crimes of a muslim.
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Communism kills because of its secular ideology. Its the root cuase. It kills because it cannot see life as sacred which stems from its materialism.
 
East_and_West said:
Communism kills because of its secular ideology. Its the root cuase. It kills because it cannot see life as sacred which stems from its materialism.
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That does make sense, when you consider how secularism and abortion go hand in hand.
 
AgnosTheist said:
Given what happens in reality, who tends to convert more?
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I guess I’ve misunderstood. I suppose more secular humanists “convert” to Christianity, but I honestly don’t know. I do know that there are many Muslim converts to Christianity. I also know that there is tremendous pressure in Muslim communities not to leave the faith. However, you have to factor in the influence of upbringing. There probably aren’t a lot of secular humanists who were raised strictly as secular humanists. Most probably came from a religious upbringing. Secular humanists who grew up in a Muslim home would probably “convert” most easily to Islam. Those who grew up in a Christian home would more easily “convert” to Christianity.

The choices you offer imply that the ease to which one group or the other converts to Christianity somehow indicates the level of threat they pose to society. I don’t follow. But I stand by my earlier post regarding the true nature of the threat of the two groups.
 
ibkc said:
If the majority of the 1.6 million are religious and practicing, while the majority of the 60 million are non-religious at best, and antipathetic to Christianity at worst, in a culture that was formerly strongly Christian, yes, that’s ‘huge’.
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The Muslims have had nothing to do with Europe becoming ‘post-Christian’, they may make up a significant minority of the ‘seriously religious’ but they’re a tiny minority in comparison to the ‘largely indifferent’.
That’s a big cultural shift.
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Or, to put it another way, it isn’t.
Why do you think the Archbishop of Canterbury even entertained the idea of allowing facets of Sharia law in the UK?
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Because he completely misjudged the attitude of the vast majority of the country (including, going on the UK media, a large proportion of Muslims).

Of course, he’s a figure of very little importance in the UK, it’s a largely ceremonial job, for royal weddings, funerals etc.
Then what is it about this discussion makes you so angry and hostile?
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Erm? I’m only hostile to the importation of mass-produced, high cholesterol, coca-cola culture American paranoias into the European market.
 
lauramelissa said:
Wow, I really enjoy how a majority of the finger-pointing in this topic happens to be at people based on their religious beliefs! Has no one considered that the extremist version of anything is bad?

Also, for the few who are partaking in the generalization of Muslims, stop kidding yourselves - yes, many of the terrorists we see today are Muslim. But not all Muslims are terrorists. The Wahabi faction if Islam makes up a very small percentage of the overall Muslim community. Someone brought up American based gangs in another topic, and how they’ve killed just as many (if not more) American citizens than Islamic terrorists. Of course, since 75% of our country is Christian, people don’t seem so quick to associate this bad behavior with their religion.

Stop being so hypocritical and realize that immoral behavior isn’t taught by a religion that doesn’t happen to be yours.
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I agree! We use our religious beliefs to assume we know better than others.
 
ibkc said:
If the majority of the 1.6 million are religious and practicing, while the majority of the 60 million are non-religious at best, and antipathetic to Christianity at worst, in a culture that was formerly strongly Christian, yes, that’s ‘huge’. That’s a big cultural shift. Why do you think the Archbishop of Canterbury even entertained the idea of allowing facets of Sharia law in the UK?
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I don’t want to intrude on your discussion too much, I just want to comment on (mainly question) this.

How do you know that the 1.6 million are practicing?

How do you know they are all “jihading” Europe? Most could be trying to live and work just as you and I do. Give them some credit as being human beings. They can’t all be bent on destruction. Please.

Im only talking about the above quote, not the rest of your posts. But don’t you think you are basing your arguments on hearsay and personal opinion only?
 
East_and_West said:
Communism kills because of its secular ideology. Its the root cuase. It kills because it cannot see life as sacred which stems from its materialism.
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islam kills because of its religious ideology.

please, learn to distinguish different secular ideologies. Humanists value human life. (well, not the unborn)
 
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