Seder meal

[EasterJoy]

I don’t recall there being anything in the traditional Hagaddah that is anti-Catholic. The prayers are all psalms. And, as you know, it focuses on the story of Exodus. There are messiah oriented haggadot that are geared toward messianic Jews.

In other words, although it is possible that a seder might be objectionable to a Catholic, that is not something one can automatically assume to be so.

Compare and contrast this with a Jew participating at Mass. Of course it would be out of bounds for a Jew to conduct a pseudo-Mass, for about every reason one could think of. If invited to a nuptial Mass, a Jew might attend and observe, simply to be at the wedding, or some Jews might find that their sense of integrity as a Jew wouldn’t allow that, and they’d just attend the reception. Or a Jew might attend Mass if invited, but not participate, simply in order to learn about Catholics and Catholicism. Some Jews would be OK with that, others might not. It would not be appropriate, though, for a Jew to receive Holy Communion, or for a Catholic to invite them to Mass and not explain that while Mass is open to the attendance of all people of good will, receiving communion is not. Nevertheless, since it is OK with us for non-Catholics to attend and to choose whether to pray with us or sit and stand when we do, certainly a non-Catholic could come to Mass and follow his or her conscience about whether to participate at a level that we’re OK with.

It has to do with a) be respectful enough not to conduct approximations of the religious observances of other faiths and b) when hosting, being willing to explain the ritual and its implied meanings, so that the outside person can make an informed and respectful decision, and for the host to be accomodating to the prospective guest’s sense of integrity, as a part of hospitality.

 

[floresco]

Unless you are of the opinion that the psalms are a form of false worship, I don’t see how you can allege that jews holding a seder violates the 1st (or any other) commandments. I’d be interested to know if there are priests who hold this position. I can’t imagine it is in line with Church doctrine/teachings.

One theme that is regularly expressed in Seders is that of awaiting the Messiah. It is either implicit or explicit that the Messiah has not come. This very much contradicts Church teaching.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

Unless you are of the opinion that the psalms are a form of false worship, I don’t see how you can allege that jews holding a seder violates the 1st (or any other) commandments. I’d be interested to know if there are priests who hold this position. I can’t imagine it is in line with Church doctrine/teachings.

See the sermon I posted on page one.

Psalms aren’t false worship - seder’s/passovers are now that it’s been fulfilled.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

+1 to what Floresco said.

There’s a lot of symbolism in the seder such as the covered loaf symbolizing the future eucharistic presence etc. As the talk I linked to says it’s objectively sinful for a catholic to have anything to do with 'em.

 

[Splinker]

One theme that is regularly expressed in Seders is that of awaiting the Messiah. It is either implicit or explicit that the Messiah has not come. This very much contradicts Church teaching.

I don’t think that’s true. I’ve been to a lot of seders. I don’t recall much or any discussion regarding the Messiah. It is certainly not even close to being a major theme at a seder.

 

[Splinker]

In other words, although it is possible that a seder might be objectionable to a Catholic, that is not something one can automatically assume to be so.

Compare and contrast this with a Jew participating at Mass. Of course it would be out of bounds for a Jew to conduct a pseudo-Mass, for about every reason one could think of. If invited to a nuptial Mass, a Jew might attend and observe, simply to be at the wedding, or some Jews might find that their sense of integrity as a Jew wouldn’t allow that, and they’d just attend the reception. Or a Jew might attend Mass if invited, but not participate, simply in order to learn about Catholics and Catholicism. Some Jews would be OK with that, others might not. It would not be appropriate, though, for a Jew to receive Holy Communion, or for a Catholic to invite them to Mass and not explain that while Mass is open to the attendance of all people of good will, receiving communion is not. Nevertheless, since it is OK with us for non-Catholics to attend and to choose whether to pray with us or sit and stand when we do, certainly a non-Catholic could come to Mass and follow his or her conscience about whether to participate at a level that we’re OK with.

It has to do with a) be respectful enough not to conduct approximations of the religious observances of other faiths and b) when hosting, being willing to explain the ritual and its implied meanings, so that the outside person can make an informed and respectful decision, and for the host to be accomodating to the prospective guest’s sense of integrity, as a part of hospitality.

A Jew holding a Mass would, I think, be objectionable to both a catholic and a jewish perspective. Partaking in a Mass (as opposed to just attending) would clearly violate the basic tenents of Judaism.

Conversely, A Seder Meal consists of telling the story of Exodus and in fact opens with teh requirement of inviting a stranger to the meal. Contrary to what I’ve seen posted here, I don;t think there is much discussion at all about the Messiah in most Hagaddot. There may be other reasons that Catholics are told not to participate that I’m not aware of.

 

[jmcrae]

A Jew holding a Mass would, I think, be objectionable to both a catholic and a jewish perspective. Partaking in a Mass (as opposed to just attending) would clearly violate the basic tenents of Judaism.

Conversely, A Seder Meal consists of telling the story of Exodus and in fact opens with teh requirement of inviting a stranger to the meal. Contrary to what I’ve seen posted here, I don;t think there is much discussion at all about the Messiah in most Hagaddot. There may be other reasons that Catholics are told not to participate that I’m not aware of.

I think we are allowed to attend Seders that are hosted by Jews, assuming we are invited. (Obviously, just crashing one would be extremely rude.) But we are not to participate in anything going by the name of “Seder” that isn’t actually being hosted by Jews - for example, there used to be “Seder suppers” hosted by the Confirmation kids at one of our parishes, which was basically a re-enactment - I wouldn’t consider that sort of thing to be appropriate, and in fact our Bishop has banned such events.

 

[nsper7]

Didn’t Pope John Paul II attend a Seder (this is an honest question, I am not sure of the answer)? Anyway, coming from a Jewish background and being a convert to Catholicism, I don’t see a problem with celebrating Jewish holidays such as Passover. After all, it is Biblically-based and it was likely that the Last Supper was a Seder.

 

[Sarah_Angel]

Point of talk:

It’s a violation of the 1st commandment to offer true worship to a false god or false worship to the true God. Seders are the latter.

Question:

Have you actually attended a Seder?

 

[Sarah_Angel]

Also, there was already a topic made around Easter time.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=443383&highlight=seder

I asked people questions and challenged their viewpoints, but I got no responses.

 

[floresco]

I don’t think that’s true. I’ve been to a lot of seders. I don’t recall much or any discussion regarding the Messiah. It is certainly not even close to being a major theme at a seder.

Have you ever been at a Seder in which they opened the door for Elijah or poured a cup of wine for Elijah? It is a very common practice and it is Messianic symbolism. Here is the wikipedia explanation:

* Kos shel Eliyahu ha-Navi (cup of Elijah the Prophet)

In many traditions, the front door of the house is opened at this point. Psalms 79:6-7 is recited in both Ashkenazi and Sephardi traditions, plus Lamentations 3:66 among Ashkenazim.

Most Ashkenazim have the custom to fill a fifth cup at this point. This relates to a Talmudic discussion that concerns the number of cups that are supposed to be drunk. Given that the four cups are in reference to the four expressions of redemption in Exodus 6:6-7, some rabbis felt that it was important to include a fifth cup for the fifth expression of redemption in Exodus 6:8. All agreed that five cups should be poured but the question as to whether or not the fifth should be drunk, given that the fifth expression of redemption concerned being brought into the Land of Israel, which - by this stage - was no longer possessed of an autonomous Jewish community, remained insoluble. The rabbis determined that the matter should be left until Elijah (in reference to the notion that Elijah’s arrival would precipitate the coming of the Messiah, at which time all halakhic questions will be resolved) and the fifth cup came to be known as the Kos shel Eliyahu (“Cup of Elijah”).Over time, people came to relate this cup to the notion that Elijah the Prophet will visit each home on Seder night as a foreshadowing of his future arrival at the end of the days, when he will come to announce the coming of the Jewish Messiah. Some Jewish feminists place a Cup of Miriam filled with water (to represent the well that existed as long as Miriam was alive in the desert) beside the Cup of Elijah. The Passover Seder is traditionally connected with the Messianic age.

 

[floresco]

Contrary to what I’ve seen posted here, I don;t think there is much discussion at all about the Messiah in most Hagaddot.

The word “Messiah” might not be used much, but there are usually references to Elijah. In Jewish thought, he is the forerunner of the Messiah so this is what is meant. Here is another quote from a Jewish website:

The timing of the pouring of the “Cup of Elijah” is also apropos, right before we start reading the Hallel, whose focus is on the future redemption (see Why do we divide the Hallel into two at the Passover seder?). After commemorating the very first redemption of the Jewish people from Egypt we express our hope and firm belief in the coming of the Moshiach who will usher in the new and final redemption very very soon.

chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/504495/jewish/Why-is-Elijah-invited-in-during-the-seder.htm
If you google on “seder” and “elijah” you will find many sites with information about this.

 

[Sarah_Angel]

Have you ever been at a Seder in which they opened the door for Elijah or poured a cup of wine for Elijah? It is a very common practice and it is Messianic symbolism.

No.

 

[floresco]

In response to my question about attending Seders with references to Elijah:

No.

In the thread you linked to, you mentioned that you had only been to Christian seders. The custom of having a cup of wine for Elijah and /or opening the door for him is the norm at Jewish seders. I do not think that I have ever seen a Haggadah which omitted it.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

Question:

Have you actually attended a Seder?

Why? Are you going to try to discredit me based upon my reply?

 

[Splinker]

It is traditional to open the door for Eliajha, yes. And it is a tradition, not a scriptual tradition, that this is anticipation of the messianic age.

 

[Sarah_Angel]

In the thread you linked to, you mentioned that you had only been to Christian seders. The custom of having a cup of wine for Elijah and /or opening the door for him is the norm at Jewish seders. I do not think that I have ever seen a Haggadah which omitted it.

That makes sense.

I think that people are trying to discredit the entire notion of a Seder, not just the Jewish one. I can understand why people would believe that it would be wrong to celebrate a Jewish Seder, especially in a Catholic Church, but why should a Christian Seder “break the first commandment?”

Why? Are you going to try to discredit me based upon my reply?

Well, kind of.

It just seems like you only formed an opinion on the Seder because some priest said that it was wrong, even though the priest in the link that you posted seems to have the idea that Christian Seders deny the Messiah’s coming. That is far from the truth. The Christian Seder, over and over again, reiterates Christ’s coming to redeem the world while connecting it with the covenants made in the Old Testament.

As I said in the other thread, while it is true that we have the Eucharist and we don’t need the Christian Seder, it’s still eye-opening to see how God’s covenants have affected us as a people, of Israel and - since Christ’s resurrection - the world.

Does that make sense?

 

[floresco]

That makes sense.

I think that people are trying to discredit the entire notion of a Seder, not just the Jewish one. I can understand why people would believe that it would be wrong to celebrate a Jewish Seder, especially in a Catholic Church, but why should a Christian Seder “break the first commandment?”

If one leaves the Seder alone it is Jewish worship and contains ideas that directly contradict Christianity. I can understand claiming that this breaks the first commandment.

A Christian Seder takes the Jewish Seder and adjusts it so that it will have Christian rather than Jewish significance. The problem with this is that Jesus already did this. He changed the significance of the bread and the wine and the paschal lamb and that is how the Eucharist was instituted. Having a Christian Seder kind of implies that one thinks that one can do a better job of it than Jesus did.

 

[floresco]

It is traditional to open the door for Eliajha, yes. And it is a tradition, not a scriptual tradition, that this is anticipation of the messianic age.

And this sets the context of the Seder. The people celebrate how God has delivered them in the past and anticipate how he will deliver them in the future with the coming of the Messiah. While not spoken of much explicitly, the idea underlies the entire story of Passover. Moses is a type of the coming Messiah.

Jews await a Messiah that Christians believe has already come. That is the core of the difference between Jews and Christians. And this point of crucial difference is what underlies the Seder.

 

[EasterJoy]

And this sets the context of the Seder. The people celebrate how God has delivered them in the past and anticipate how he will deliver them in the future with the coming of the Messiah. While not spoken of much explicitly, the idea underlies the entire story of Passover. Moses is a type of the coming Messiah.

Jews await a Messiah that Christians believe has already come. That is the core of the difference between Jews and Christians. And this point of crucial difference is what underlies the Seder.

Well, some Jews do, some don’t, and what “messiah” means is very open to debate. That is the thing that cannot be forgotten: to be a Jew is a state of being, not a set of beliefs. I’ve heard a young man in his Bar Mitzvah speech say he was Jewish and that he didn’t believe in God at all! Nobody seemed to blink. He was still Jewish.