See?!?! It says so right in the Bible!

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Paris Blues:
Hi there,

Take a good look:

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20)

Not trying to sound condemning or anything but this is the truth…you cannot interpret on your own
unity.enya.com/images/smiles/smiles_sad.gif


But then again, one may interpret THAT wrong
unity.enya.com/images/smiles/smiles_rolleyes.gif
unity.enya.com/images/smiles/smiles_shock.gif

YIKES! I sound like a Protestant…that is, a former Protestant defending the Catholic Faith
unity.enya.com/images/smiles/smiles_grin.gif
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21: For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
KJB
 
Paris Blues:
Hi there,

Take a good look:

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20)

Not trying to sound condemning or anything but this is the truth…you cannot interpret on your own
unity.enya.com/images/smiles/smiles_sad.gif


But then again, one may interpret THAT wrong
unity.enya.com/images/smiles/smiles_rolleyes.gif
unity.enya.com/images/smiles/smiles_shock.gif

YIKES! I sound like a Protestant…that is, a former Protestant defending the Catholic Faith
unity.enya.com/images/smiles/smiles_grin.gif
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21: For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
KJB
 
Giver said:
(Acts 2:44-45)“The faithfull all lived togeather and owned everything in common; they sold their goods and possessions and shared out the proceeds among themselves according to what each one needed.”

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”




Now tell me your church stayed faithful to the teachings of the apostles.

Okay, I will tell you…“church stayed faithful to the teachings of the apostles.”

The problem is that you have wrongly interpreted scripture and you do not know/understand the teachings of the church.

I cannot agree with taking the example of Christians pooling their resources in Jerusalem, as outlined in the Book of Acts, to an extreme. The verse should not be construed to mean that this was mandatory, and the verse should not be construed to mean that it was a universal practice. The logic in doing such a thing is severely flawed.

I would agree with taking these passages all the way to your conclusion if the rest of the Book of Acts and the other NT letters supported the position. The problem is that there is no support for the conclusion. Moreover, the body of scriptural evidence points the other way.

Even the case of Ananias and Sapphira demonstrates this point. Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit in regards to the amount of money they would contribute to the common purse. In this case they attempted to make it appear that they were donating the “entire proceeds” from the sale of their land. This was the lie. Peter makes a statement that clearly goes against your view of everyone “having” to donate their resources in the case of Ananias and Sapphira. In Acts 5:4 Peter says to Ananias, "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

Clearly, Ananias and Sapphira could have kept the property or could have kept the proceeds from the sale. They were not obliged to donate it. Clearly, it is a holy and worthy thing to make such a contribution, but they didn’t have to do so. What got them into trouble was the perverse thing they did in their donation by lying to the Holy Spirit.

I also gave you this example:

Generosity and giving have always been encouraged but “not required” in the fashion that you interpret the passage.

We know this to be true because there are many passages elsewhere in the Book of Acts and the other epistles where it is clear that Christians outside of the immediate period following Pentecost were not selling everything that they had. Moreover, they were not being asked to do so. In Acts 10 we read about Cornelius the centurion. He is described in Acts 10:2 as a devout man that “gave alms liberally to the people, and prayed constantly to God.” There is also mention of his “household.” Peter visits Cornelius after receiving a vision and it becomes clear that an angel had been sent by God to Cornelius to summon Peter, that the Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius and his household, and that all of them were baptized. They were all Christian believers and filled with the Holy Spirit.

Cornelius serves as a wonderful example of how God was saving, not just the Jews, but the Gentiles as well.

So what is the up shot of this passage and how does it apply to the discussion? Cornelius never gave up his household and goods and was never asked to do so. I can give many other examples as to the truth in this matter and how your interpretation is too narrow and taken out of the proper context of the Book of Acts. If need be, I will supply the extra biblical data.
 
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Pax:
Okay, I will tell you…“church stayed faithful to the teachings of the apostles.”

The problem is that you have wrongly interpreted scripture and you do not know/understand the teachings of the church.

I cannot agree with taking the example of Christians pooling their resources in Jerusalem, as outlined in the Book of Acts, to an extreme. The verse should not be construed to mean that this was mandatory, and the verse should not be construed to mean that it was a universal practice. The logic in doing such a thing is severely flawed.

I would agree with taking these passages all the way to your conclusion if the rest of the Book of Acts and the other NT letters supported the position. The problem is that there is no support for the conclusion. Moreover, the body of scriptural evidence points the other way.

Even the case of Ananias and Sapphira demonstrates this point. Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit in regards to the amount of money they would contribute to the common purse. In this case they attempted to make it appear that they were donating the “entire proceeds” from the sale of their land. This was the lie. Peter makes a statement that clearly goes against your view of everyone “having” to donate their resources in the case of Ananias and Sapphira. In Acts 5:4 Peter says to Ananias, "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

Clearly, Ananias and Sapphira could have kept the property or could have kept the proceeds from the sale. They were not obliged to donate it. Clearly, it is a holy and worthy thing to make such a contribution, but they didn’t have to do so. What got them into trouble was the perverse thing they did in their donation by lying to the Holy Spirit.

I also gave you this example:

Generosity and giving have always been encouraged but “not required” in the fashion that you interpret the passage.

We know this to be true because there are many passages elsewhere in the Book of Acts and the other epistles where it is clear that Christians outside of the immediate period following Pentecost were not selling everything that they had. Moreover, they were not being asked to do so. In Acts 10 we read about Cornelius the centurion. He is described in Acts 10:2 as a devout man that “gave alms liberally to the people, and prayed constantly to God.” There is also mention of his “household.” Peter visits Cornelius after receiving a vision and it becomes clear that an angel had been sent by God to Cornelius to summon Peter, that the Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius and his household, and that all of them were baptized. They were all Christian believers and filled with the Holy Spirit.

Cornelius serves as a wonderful example of how God was saving, not just the Jews, but the Gentiles as well.

So what is the up shot of this passage and how does it apply to the discussion? Cornelius never gave up his household and goods and was never asked to do so. I can give many other examples as to the truth in this matter and how your interpretation is too narrow and taken out of the proper context of the Book of Acts. If need be, I will supply the extra biblical data.
(Acts 2:44-45) “The faithful all lived together and owned everything in common; they sold their goods and possessions and shared out the proceeds among themselves according to what each one needed.”

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”

(Luke 12:33) “Sell your possessions and give alms. Get yourselves purses that do not wear out, treasure that will not fail you, in Heaven where no thief can reach it and no moth destroy it. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”

(Matthew 5:43) “You have learnt how it was said: You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say this to you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you; in this way you will be sons of your Father in Heaven.”

(Luke 6:34-35) “And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what thanks can you expect? Even sinners lend to sinners to get back the same amount. Instead, love your enemies and do good, and lend without any hope of return.
 
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1Christ1Church:
guess the real question is for you to answer is this. Did the fellowship who received the Holy Spirit and upon hearing the teachings of the good news of Jesus Christ gather together to worship in mostly quiet reverence followed by monotone repetitious babble? In the name of Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit, God Bless you all.
Uhh…dey did dis-

“Sanctus Sanctus Sanctus”

Kyrie Eleison, Kyrie Eleison, Kyrie Eleison
Christe Eleison, Christe Eleison, Christe Eleison
Kyrie Eleison, Kyrie Eleison, Kyrie Eleison

Domine non sum dignus… repeated three times.

Ken
 
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1Christ1Church:
Matthew 26:30 says after Jesus and the Apostles broke bread they sang a hymn. So the Fellowship of the Believers devoted themselves to the Apostles’ teaching and to the fellowship themselves. So obviously from the teaching there was singing. They praised God, and again, obviously it was communial worship, free from mans doctrine and tradition on how to worship…
How do you know this? You quote one verse of Scripture and claim that was the limitations of their worship only because you believe in Sola Scriptura - the “tradition of men” Christ warns us about. Do you not think that the Apostles themselves laid down laws and guidelines on what to do at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass? Did you not know that the Christians in the Catecombs did not use tables but altars that were made of the tombs of the martyers? Do you not know that what is done at Mass is the same done at Calvary? Jesus Christ is offered to the Holy Trinity for the reparation of sin?
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1Christ1Church:
No more need for altars or tabernacles, no place for sorrow in Christ’s Church. I could only imagine the joy in our blessed Mother Mary’s heart by witnessing and participating in worshipping God.
That is absurd. If there is no Tabernacle then how do you suggest to reserve Holy Communion (the consecrecrated Hosts are the actual Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ) to be brought to the sick after Holy Mass? If there is no altar than how do you suggest to show the meaning of what is actually happening at Holy Mass?

How things were done in the beginning has nothing to do with how things are done now. As time went along the Church began to grow in understanding things and she developed the Liturgy in such a way as we see it in the traditional Mass as it was before Vatican II and also in the Eastern Rites.

Why is it that you people complaining of such never showed up until the middle ages?

Ken
 
And see how one post asking a simple question brings about a laundry list from the heretics who cannot justify or explain it.

If they were right then there would not be over 30,000 groups of them teaching different doctrines.

Ken
 
Giver said:
(Acts 2:44-45) “The faithful all lived together and owned everything in common; they sold their goods and possessions and shared out the proceeds among themselves according to what each one needed.”

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”

(Luke 12:33) “Sell your possessions and give alms. Get yourselves purses that do not wear out, treasure that will not fail you, in Heaven where no thief can reach it and no moth destroy it. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”

(Matthew 5:43) “You have learnt how it was said: You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say this to you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you; in this way you will be sons of your Father in Heaven.”

(Luke 6:34-35) “And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what thanks can you expect? Even sinners lend to sinners to get back the same amount. Instead, love your enemies and do good, and lend without any hope of return.

This is mere repetition on your part and not a response to what was given to you. You claim that everyone gave up everything they had and pooled it together. I showed you in post # 63 that this only applied to the church in Jerusalem for short period of time after Pentecost. Since you are not yet convinced, I will supply you with some of the additional biblical data that I mentioned was available.

In the Book of Acts we are told about Lydia. In Acts16:14-15, it says:

“One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul. And when she was baptized, with her household, she besought us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.”

Later in the book of Acts we are told that Paul and Silas are thrown into prison. Once they are released from prison they again visited Lydia at “her” house.[Acts 16:40]. Apparently, Lydia never sold her house or her cloth business.

Also in Acts 20:20 it says “…teaching you in public and in your homes.” This is a direct quote from Paul to members of the Christian church that apparently still owned their own homes and apparently never sold them.

I could go on with more examples, but you should be able to get the point.

Do you accept this or not? If not, then what is required to convince you of the truth?
 
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1Christ1Church:
Matthew 26:30 says after Jesus and the Apostles broke bread they sang a hymn. So the Fellowship of the Believers devoted themselves to the Apostles’ teaching and to the fellowship themselves. So obviously from the teaching there was singing. They praised God, and again, obviously it was communial worship, free from mans doctrine and tradition on how to worship. No more need for altars or tabernacles, no place for sorrow in Christ’s Church. I could only imagine the joy in our blessed Mother Mary’s heart by witnessing and participating in worshipping God.



In the name of Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit, God Bless you all.
This is a glaring error on its very face. You need to study the celebration of the Passover to know that what Jesus and the apostles did was not free from doctrine and tradition. You call it man’s doctrine and tradition but this is not so. The Old Covenant and the Passover were given by God. The New Covenant and the celebration of the Eucharist is also God given. Jesus instituted the Eucharist at the Last Supper Passover meal.
 
Paris Blues:
Hi there,

Take a good look:

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20)

Not trying to sound condemning or anything but this is the truth…you cannot interpret on your own
unity.enya.com/images/smiles/smiles_sad.gif


But then again, one may interpret THAT wrong
unity.enya.com/images/smiles/smiles_rolleyes.gif
unity.enya.com/images/smiles/smiles_shock.gif

YIKES! I sound like a Protestant…that is, a former Protestant defending the Catholic Faith
unity.enya.com/images/smiles/smiles_grin.gif

That verse in context:​

2Pe 1:13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to arouse you by way of reminder,

2Pe 1:14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me.

2Pe 1:15 And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

2Pe 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

2Pe 1:17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,”

2Pe 1:18 we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.

2Pe 1:19 And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

2Pe 1:20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,

2Pe 1:21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

2Pe 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

2Pe 2:2 And many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled.

2Pe 2:3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words; from of old their condemnation has not been idle, and their destruction has not been asleep.

=======

The passage as a whole is about prophecy and matters related thereto. Not about the interpretation of the Bible. Still less can it be used as a warning against the reading of the Bible. ##
 
Gottle of Geer said:
## That verse in context:

2Pe 1:13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to arouse you by way of reminder,

2Pe 1:14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me.

2Pe 1:15 And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

2Pe 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

2Pe 1:17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,”

2Pe 1:18 we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.

2Pe 1:19 And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

2Pe 1:20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,

2Pe 1:21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

2Pe 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

2Pe 2:2 And many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled.

2Pe 2:3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words; from of old their condemnation has not been idle, and their destruction has not been asleep.

=======

The passage as a whole is about prophecy and matters related thereto. Not about the interpretation of the Bible. Still less can it be used as a warning against the reading of the Bible. ##

I think it can be used as a warning about the interpretation of the Scriptures. In fact, I think it is more useful than most folks realize, due to how deep it really goes.

What the passage is getting at is that the prophecies recorded in Scripture were given by God for the purpose of conveying a specific truth. Thus, Peter writes that no prophecy is of any private interpretation because the only thing the prophecy means is that specific truth that God was intending to convey. Any other interpretation is simply wrong, because there is only one. So this passage establishes the singular meaning of the prophecies in Scripture.

Now it goes deeper than that. Peter states that no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation. In other words, there is a general public interpretation that is required. Now at the time that the prophets spoke, this one singular interpretation was conveyed by their words, and if anyone had any questions, they could simply ask the prophet and get the true answer. However, all the prophets are dead now. Peter is talking about the prophecies as they then (and now) existed in Scripture.

So in other words, for all these prophecies which ended up written down, there was only one true meaning and that meaning was not availible in private interpretation but could be known through this public interpretation. Who made this interpretation? The Church did. I can write about it more deeply, but I think that’s enough for people to understand the point. So in short, this passage can show at least that there exists a Church authority which is charged with providing the proper interpretation of the prophecies of Scripture. As we know, authority is everything, and showing that a real authority exists is 90% of the battle.
 
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Pax:
This is mere repetition on your part and not a response to what was given to you. You claim that everyone gave up everything they had and pooled it together. I showed you in post # 63 that this only applied to the church in Jerusalem for short period of time after Pentecost. Since you are not yet convinced, I will supply you with some of the additional biblical data that I mentioned was available.

In the Book of Acts we are told about Lydia. In Acts16:14-15, it says:

“One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul. And when she was baptized, with her household, she besought us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.”

Later in the book of Acts we are told that Paul and Silas are thrown into prison. Once they are released from prison they again visited Lydia at “her” house.[Acts 16:40]. Apparently, Lydia never sold her house or her cloth business.

Also in Acts 20:20 it says “…teaching you in public and in your homes.” This is a direct quote from Paul to members of the Christian church that apparently still owned their own homes and apparently never sold them.

I could go on with more examples, but you should be able to get the point.

Do you accept this or not? If not, then what is required to convince you of the truth?
Pax, The truth is you don’t know what those people did with their homes, and possessions. I don’t believe giving up their homes etc. would be one of Paul’s first teachings about believing in our Lord. Also you don’t know if those people started sharing homes etc. with one another.

Also some of what Jesus told us to do was for our own good to help keep us safe. Calling another man father, (Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”

Jesus told us to try our hardest to get through the narrow door. It seems to me Christians are trying to get through the door the easiest way possible. They seem to be trying to find anyway they can to get around what Jesus told them to do.

By the way Pax, you accuse me of not answering post, well, you owe me some.
 
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Giver:
Now tell me your church stayed faithful to the teachings of the apostles.
The Church stayed faithful to the teachings of the Apostles.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
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Giver:
Pax, The truth is you don’t know what those people did with their homes, and possessions.
Okay, let’s assume for a moment that you are right and that I don’t know exactly what all of these people did with their homes and possessions. Scripture isn’t giving us a commandment in this matter and that is precisely why their ultimate actions are not 100% clear. The argument you are using applies to you just as much as it applies to me. You obviously don’t know either. Therefore, by your own logic, you cannot come to the conclusion that you have drawn. More importantly, however, is the fact that the scripture I did provide makes it clear that pooling their resources was not mandatory and was not a teaching. The analysis I gave of Peter’s statements to Ananias refutes your position. If you can show me how Peter’s statements mean something different than what I said they did, then please do so.
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Giver:
I don’t believe giving up their homes etc. would be one of Paul’s first teachings about believing in our Lord. Also you don’t know if those people started sharing homes etc. with one another.
Scripture gives no evidence whatsoever that Paul ever taught that Christians were to give up their homes. As far as Christians sharing their goods and homes is concerned, scripture is actually pretty clear. I can give several passages of scripture to show that these kindnesses were common. I can also give numerous examples of Catholic generosity today. You may not be aware of it, but Catholic Charities dwarf all other charities worldwide and 25% of all AIDS victims receive some form of care and support from Catholic Charities. No other person, persons, or organizations even come close.
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Giver:
Also some of what Jesus told us to do was for our own good to help keep us safe. Calling another man father,
This statement of “call no man father” has been explained to you several times and in several ways on other threads. You are wrong about how you view this and it really is time to give this one up. I cannot believe that you still cling to your position on this.

Giver said:
(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions.”

Jesus told us to try our hardest to get through the narrow door. It seems to me Christians are trying to get through the door the easiest way possible. They seem to be trying to find anyway they can to get around what Jesus told them to do.

By the way Pax, you accuse me of not answering post, well, you owe me some.

Let’s look at Luke 14:33.

Here are some additional translations to the one you provided:

–RSV
So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.

– Living Bible
Luke 14:33 So no one can become my disciple unless he first sits down and counts his blessings–and then renounces them all for me.

– Weymouth’s New Testament
Luke 14:33 Just as no one of you who does not detach himself from all that belongs to him can be a disciple of mine.

The point of this verse is to tell us that we must put God ahead of everything. We must detach ourselves from the things of this world. If we love the things of this world they become an obstacle and can even become an “idol.” God will provide all that we need and the things we do have are from God. Clinging to these things is what will prevent us from being disciples. It is not an absolute statement that Christians can’t own anything.

I hope this helps.
 
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Giver:
By the way Pax, you accuse me of not answering post, well, you owe me some.
Be specific and I’ll try to answer you. I only ask that you confine your request to one item at a time so that I can give a proper and full response.
 
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