Seeing everyone as equals

[CRATUS]

I am not talking about money or beauty-wise. Sometimes it is difficult for me to see the value in people who are not as strong as others. Some people are outspoken, tough, logical, opinionated, very independent, smart, grounded and down-to-earth. They get it. They seem invincible. They are intelligent enough to commit sins that will haunt them later. Or maybe some people regret things less. Some people are so slow - they wallow, they cannot forget things, they have low self-esteem, they are stuck in a cycle or a bad habit. As much I am all for free-will. it seems certain things come easier for certain people. Some people are natural go-getters. They are mature. Some people seem to take forever to finally get it. The clock is ticking. Life does not last forever, nor does youth.

 

[Billy112]

Jesus proclaimed that we all had the same worth to Him on the Cross. At no point did he bend down and say “except for…”. I can see you’re having a difficult time so simply try and imitate Him in this. You could talk to a priest, too; helping people is part of their job. You’re in my prayers.

As always, I would recommend the Chaplet of Divine Mercy, in which we offer the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world, and the Rosary.

 

[Billy112]

He*

Excuse me, I need to get better at this.

 

[GLam8833]

Thanx CRATUS for the insight, indeed we need
to look at people from GOD’S point of view, He
chose the lowly, the slow, the despised the weak
TO SHAME THE strong, those who are success-
ful those who have everything,see 1 Cor. 1
Jesus was on the side of the underdog. My biologi-
cal father always sided w/ the underdog, btw.

 

[TARRAT]

GLAM has it pretty well covered. We are all equal in the eyes of the Lord. Nothing can change that. When comparing individuals on a physical, spiritual, emotional, and intellectual level there can be huge differences. However being stronger or smarter or closer to the Creator or even being emotionally stable doesn’t mean we are not equal in the eyes of the Lord, or for that matter here in the US, equal in the eyes of the government.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

This is something I’ve been seeing more and more.

We punish or glorify other people in the name of God, and treat them with different respect.

But does God? It seems we’ve projected all of our anger into the God of the Old Testament, which is incomprehensible to humans. Really, how can we look to God as a “moral leader” when it takes a human being (Abraham) to talk him out of wiping out cities, and who makes bets with the devil at the expense of His best followers property, reputation and family?

That’s why Jesus came, so that we could see what a “human” version of God looks like. We want to be like a fire and brimstone God of the O.T. – omnipotent, powerful, narcissistic, demanding and judgmental. But this image of God is not for human understanding, which is why Jesus came to show us that being as His Father is, actually translates on a human level to mercy, compassion, and turning the other cheek.

God the Father certainly showed quite the opposite of “turning the other cheek” when Job dared challenge Him.

God the Son would have healed Job of the illness His Father let the devil bestow upon Job, if He saw the kind of faith Job had and how much Job begged for mercy. Or was the fact Job was righteous, something Job wasn’t allowed to know?

Sometimes I think that Jesus came to save us from our image of what we thought His Father was doing – or at least to teach us to be perfectly in the kingdom even while this is all going on.

John 14:8-10
Philip said to him, “Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.

We judge people who do Wrong Things and say “stay away from sinners” and at the same time “be like Jesus.” That’s kind of silly, really.

Rom 12:16
Have the same regard for one another; do not be haughty but associate with the lowly; do not be wise in your own estimation.

1 Cor 12:22-25
Indeed, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are all the more necessary, and those parts of the body that we consider less honorable we surround with greater honor, and our less presentable parts are treated with greater propriety, whereas our more presentable parts do not need this. But God has so constructed the body as to give greater honor to a part that is without it, so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another

Seems to me God created Satan and Jesus both, (or the Word which was Jesus … or however that works) so if we are to “love our enemy” then what does that say about how Jesus feels about Satan? Why would He tell us to love our enemies on the basis that loving only those who love us is not a spiritual challenge, if He did not Himself love His own greatest “enemy”? I’ve never heard that point of view expressed before, except in my own thoughts.

Matt 5:44-45
But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.

 

[truetofaith]

This is something I’ve been seeing more and more.

We punish or glorify other people in the name of God, and treat them with different respect.

But does God? It seems we’ve projected all of our anger into the God of the Old Testament, which is incomprehensible to humans. Really, how can we look to God as a “moral leader” when it takes a human being (Abraham) to talk him out of wiping out cities, and who makes bets with the devil at the expense of His best followers property, reputation and family?

That’s why Jesus came, so that we could see what a “human” version of God looks like. We want to be like a fire and brimstone God of the O.T. – omnipotent, powerful, narcissistic, demanding and judgmental. But this image of God is not for human understanding, which is why Jesus came to show us that being as His Father is, actually translates on a human level to mercy, compassion, and turning the other cheek.

God the Father certainly showed quite the opposite of “turning the other cheek” when Job dared challenge Him.

God the Son would have healed Job of the illness His Father let the devil bestow upon Job, if He saw the kind of faith Job had and how much Job begged for mercy. Or was the fact Job was righteous, something Job wasn’t allowed to know?

Sometimes I think that Jesus came to save us from our image of what we thought His Father was doing – or at least to teach us to be perfectly in the kingdom even while this is all going on.

John 14:8-10
Philip said to him, “Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.

We judge people who do Wrong Things and say “stay away from sinners” and at the same time “be like Jesus.” That’s kind of silly, really.

Rom 12:16
Have the same regard for one another; do not be haughty but associate with the lowly; do not be wise in your own estimation.

1 Cor 12:22-25
Indeed, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are all the more necessary, and those parts of the body that we consider less honorable we surround with greater honor, and our less presentable parts are treated with greater propriety, whereas our more presentable parts do not need this. But God has so constructed the body as to give greater honor to a part that is without it, so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another

Seems to me God created Satan and Jesus both, (or the Word which was Jesus … or however that works) so if we are to “love our enemy” then what does that say about how Jesus feels about Satan? Why would He tell us to love our enemies on the basis that loving only those who love us is not a spiritual challenge, if He did not Himself love His own greatest “enemy”? I’ve never heard that point of view expressed before, except in my own thoughts.

Matt 5:44-45
But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.

Concerning Job…the God of the Old Test. was Father, Son & Holy Spirit, so Jesus was part of the equation. In the New Test., He showed more of His (God’s) merciful nature!

 

[truetofaith]

This is something I’ve been seeing more and more.

We punish or glorify other people in the name of God, and treat them with different respect.

But does God? It seems we’ve projected all of our anger into the God of the Old Testament, which is incomprehensible to humans. Really, how can we look to God as a “moral leader” when it takes a human being (Abraham) to talk him out of wiping out cities, and who makes bets with the devil at the expense of His best followers property, reputation and family?

That’s why Jesus came, so that we could see what a “human” version of God looks like. We want to be like a fire and brimstone God of the O.T. – omnipotent, powerful, narcissistic, demanding and judgmental. But this image of God is not for human understanding, which is why Jesus came to show us that being as His Father is, actually translates on a human level to mercy, compassion, and turning the other cheek.

God the Father certainly showed quite the opposite of “turning the other cheek” when Job dared challenge Him.

God the Son would have healed Job of the illness His Father let the devil bestow upon Job, if He saw the kind of faith Job had and how much Job begged for mercy. Or was the fact Job was righteous, something Job wasn’t allowed to know?

Sometimes I think that Jesus came to save us from our image of what we thought His Father was doing – or at least to teach us to be perfectly in the kingdom even while this is all going on.

John 14:8-10
Philip said to him, “Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.

We judge people who do Wrong Things and say “stay away from sinners” and at the same time “be like Jesus.” That’s kind of silly, really.

Rom 12:16
Have the same regard for one another; do not be haughty but associate with the lowly; do not be wise in your own estimation.

1 Cor 12:22-25
Indeed, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are all the more necessary, and those parts of the body that we consider less honorable we surround with greater honor, and our less presentable parts are treated with greater propriety, whereas our more presentable parts do not need this. But God has so constructed the body as to give greater honor to a part that is without it, so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another

Seems to me God created Satan and Jesus both, (or the Word which was Jesus … or however that works) so if we are to “love our enemy” then what does that say about how Jesus feels about Satan? Why would He tell us to love our enemies on the basis that loving only those who love us is not a spiritual challenge, if He did not Himself love His own greatest “enemy”? I’ve never heard that point of view expressed before, except in my own thoughts.

Matt 5:44-45
But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.

Concerning satan…God loves Lucifer (satan) also, & would forgive him of his sin…but satan chose his own fate & will not repent!

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Concerning Job…the God of the Old Test. was Father, Son & Holy Spirit, so Jesus was part of the equation. In the New Test., He showed more of His (God’s) merciful nature!

Then it must be about our images of God (mental idols) rather than the nature of God? Or different points of view (over the ages) on the same Truth?

Concerning satan…God loves Lucifer (satan) also, & would forgive him of his sin…but satan chose his own fate & will not repent!

Thank you. If God loves Lucifer although He went south, than we should be able to love even the most destructive and annoying of humans.

 

[truetofaith]

Then it must be about our images of God (mental idols) rather than the nature of God? Or different points of view (over the ages) on the same Truth?

Thank you. If God loves Lucifer although He went south, than we should be able to love even the most destructive and annoying of humans.

God is unchangeable…so it’s our image of God, that’s flawed!

Yes we should love “destructive and annoying of humans”…but we don’t have to ‘dance’ with them. Just like God doesn’t cooperate with the devil.

 

[on_the_hill]

I am not talking about money or beauty-wise. Sometimes it is difficult for me to see the value in people who are not as strong as others. Some people are outspoken, tough, logical, opinionated, very independent, smart, grounded and down-to-earth. They get it. They seem invincible. They are intelligent enough to commit sins that will haunt them later. Or maybe some people regret things less. Some people are so slow - they wallow, they cannot forget things, they have low self-esteem, they are stuck in a cycle or a bad habit. As much I am all for free-will. it seems certain things come easier for certain people. Some people are natural go-getters. They are mature. Some people seem to take forever to finally get it. The clock is ticking. Life does not last forever, nor does youth.

“Life is tough. It’s tougher if you’re stupid.” (supposedly John Wayne said this)

“Strong people are harder to kill, and are all-around more useful.” (weightlifting coach Mark Rippetoe)

 

[Della]

Actually, we aren’t supposed to see everyone as equals–that’s God’s point of view. St. Paul tells us what our attitude ought to be:

Phil.2
[1] So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any incentive of love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy,
[2] complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.
[3] Do nothing from selfishness or conceit, but in humility count others better than yourselves.
[4] Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.
[5] Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
[6] who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
[7] but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
[8] And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.

Jesus told his disciples not to merely love others as we love ourselves but something deeper and higher:

Jn.13[34] A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

 

[GLam8833]

Actually, we aren’t supposed to see everyone as equals–that’s God’s point of view. St. Paul tells us what our attitude ought to be:

Phil.2
[1] So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any incentive of love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy,
[2] complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.
[3] Do nothing from selfishness or conceit, but in humility count others better than yourselves.
[4] Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.
[5] Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
[6] who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
[7] but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
[8] And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.

Jesus told his disciples not to merely love others as we love ourselves but something deeper and higher:

Jn.13[34] A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

Thank for the quote from Phil. 2, Della:thumbsup:

 

[CRATUS]

Then it must be about our images of God (mental idols) rather than the nature of God? Or different points of view (over the ages) on the same Truth?

Thank you. If God loves Lucifer although He went south, than we should be able to love even the most destructive and annoying of humans.

Only with God’s grace can we do so. Honestly, I would not compare what humans can do to what God can do. It is unfair. Humans are on Earth and can only do so much with our own free-will. This is the attitude I cannot stand in Christianity, is that all Christians are magically supposed be perfect and exactly like Christ - there is no room for error ever. If God could do XYZ, then humans should to. I think Christians should strive to be perfect, but ultimately we can’t. IT IS PRIDE TO BELIEVE WE COULD REPLICATE GOD.

 

[CRATUS]

“Life is tough. It’s tougher if you’re stupid.” (supposedly John Wayne said this)

“Strong people are harder to kill, and are all-around more useful.” (weightlifting coach Mark Rippetoe)

And your point is…?

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Only with God’s grace can we do so. Honestly, I would not compare what humans can do to what God can do. It is unfair. Humans are on Earth and can only do so much with our own free-will. This is the attitude I cannot stand in Christianity, is that all Christians are magically supposed be perfect and exactly like Christ - there is no room for error ever. If God could do XYZ, then humans should to. I think Christians should strive to be perfect, but ultimately we can’t. IT IS PRIDE TO BELIEVE WE COULD REPLICATE GOD.

The Incarnation of the Word in Jesus, was absolutely, 100% about showing us the connection between humans and God. You are choosing to keep God separate from yourself, it sounds like. Why did Jesus say that the Holy Spirit would come up as living water from within us? We consume His Body, Drink His blood, and all of this so we can become better humans, made in the image of God.

If you cannot stand Christians saying we should be perfect, then what do you think about a certain Jew who called us to do just that?

Matt 5:47-48
And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same? So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.

It sounds to me like you are maybe afraid to commit to even pretending there may be some world (“the kingdom”) in which what Jesus says actually has any value. One that’s not off in some whimsical fantasy of ideals embodied in some heavenly harpist. And every time someone challenged Jesus to qualify an “absurd” statement, He dug in and made it stricter – like about eating His flesh, or losing one’s life. Or he challenged them to answer a question about their own faith, that they couldn’t answer like the authority by which John baptized them.

This is what I find curious. Jesus says, “do not judge” and yet I can’t go ten posts in a thread without somebody saying why we MUST judge and using dance words around it to exempt themselves. I can hardly find anybody to even explore that “rabbit hole” with me. About the closest I can find is someone who wants to really get good forgiving, but can’t fathom not judging in the first place and therefore no need of forgiveness. This is just one example. Jesus gave us paradoxes to confuse the wise so they couldn’t rebuild the Tower of Babel.

Jesus says, “be perfect” and here what you CANNOT STAND is anybody who happens to echo the words of Jesus. Maybe kneeling before Adoration, you will find the answer? I don’t know but if you can’t stand other sinful humans quoting Jesus for you, then maybe at least you could imagine a place where the first is last and the greatest is the one who serves – for real, not just lip service. One place to start is in your own family, and is the reason Jesus washed Peter’s feet. It’s about humbling yourself, not comparing yourself to “perfection” according to the Law of Sin and Death or some other non-living standard that was replaced by the standard of the crucified Christ and guides us from within by inexpressible groanings of our spirit.

Or try turning it around. I may judge myself poorly for something that nobody else considers a problem. Maybe I want to become better at something, and if so I either go for it or accept where I am. But sometimes if I can see through the eyes of someone else who is not judging me, like Jesus or Mary or a Really Close Friend, maybe I can see I’m not really the worthless monster, or the dirt heap that I might feel like sometimes. We cannot boast of ourselves but of God, but we are all of value as parts of the Body, whatever role we play.

You may say that you have fallen short, but if you aren’t ready to believe that can even be a goal, then you may enjoy reading Rom 7 and 8 about sin and walking in the spirit.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

IT IS PRIDE TO BELIEVE WE COULD REPLICATE GOD.

True. Sufficient to “listen to Him” as Our Father called us to do from the cloud, regarding His Son in Whom He is “well pleased” … :bible1:

 

[on_the_hill]

And your point is…?

I guess that not everyone is equal.

 

[GLam8833]

Only with God’s grace can we do so. Honestly, I would not compare what humans can do to what God can do. It is unfair. Humans are on Earth and can only do so much with our own free-will. This is the attitude I cannot stand in Christianity, is that all Christians are magically supposed be perfect and exactly like Christ - there is no room for error ever. If God could do XYZ, then humans should to. I think Christians should strive to be perfect, but ultimately we can’t. IT IS PRIDE TO BELIEVE WE COULD REPLICATE GOD.

But that’s why Christians go thru suffering so much
so that what we were created for: BEING REPLICATED
in God’s(Christ’s) image might take place!!! Romans
8:29

 

[CRATUS]

The Incarnation of the Word in Jesus, was absolutely, 100% about showing us the connection between humans and God. You are choosing to keep God separate from yourself, it sounds like. Why did Jesus say that the Holy Spirit would come up as living water from within us? We consume His Body, Drink His blood, and all of this so we can become better humans, made in the image of God.

If you cannot stand Christians saying we should be perfect, then what do you think about a certain Jew who called us to do just that?

Matt 5:47-48
And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same? So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.

It sounds to me like you are maybe afraid to commit to even pretending there may be some world (“the kingdom”) in which what Jesus says actually has any value. One that’s not off in some whimsical fantasy of ideals embodied in some heavenly harpist. And every time someone challenged Jesus to qualify an “absurd” statement, He dug in and made it stricter – like about eating His flesh, or losing one’s life. Or he challenged them to answer a question about their own faith, that they couldn’t answer like the authority by which John baptized them.

This is what I find curious. Jesus says, “do not judge” and yet I can’t go ten posts in a thread without somebody saying why we MUST judge and using dance words around it to exempt themselves. I can hardly find anybody to even explore that “rabbit hole” with me. About the closest I can find is someone who wants to really get good forgiving, but can’t fathom not judging in the first place and therefore no need of forgiveness. This is just one example. Jesus gave us paradoxes to confuse the wise so they couldn’t rebuild the Tower of Babel.

Jesus says, “be perfect” and here what you CANNOT STAND is anybody who happens to echo the words of Jesus. Maybe kneeling before Adoration, you will find the answer? I don’t know but if you can’t stand other sinful humans quoting Jesus for you, then maybe at least you could imagine a place where the first is last and the greatest is the one who serves – for real, not just lip service. One place to start is in your own family, and is the reason Jesus washed Peter’s feet. It’s about humbling yourself, not comparing yourself to “perfection” according to the Law of Sin and Death or some other non-living standard that was replaced by the standard of the crucified Christ and guides us from within by inexpressible groanings of our spirit.

Or try turning it around. I may judge myself poorly for something that nobody else considers a problem. Maybe I want to become better at something, and if so I either go for it or accept where I am. But sometimes if I can see through the eyes of someone else who is not judging me, like Jesus or Mary or a Really Close Friend, maybe I can see I’m not really the worthless monster, or the dirt heap that I might feel like sometimes. We cannot boast of ourselves but of God, but we are all of value as parts of the Body, whatever role we play.

You may say that you have fallen short, but if you aren’t ready to believe that can even be a goal, then you may enjoy reading Rom 7 and 8 about sin and walking in the spirit.

I understand exactly what you mean and I do not disagree at all. Your posts can be a little intense, chill out. Sometimes it comes across as if anyone who does not understand the scripture the same way you do is automatically wrong. I still do not agree with you necessarily on the seven deadly sins thing. I think pride, envy, anger and greed at the top. Isn’t the love of money the root of all evil? I do not think all sexual sins are minor issues. They are personal matters that should be dealt with privately. Then again, all our sins are between us and God. As for judging, Christians should be discerning. I am not going to pretend if I see someone cheating on their husband, that it is right. Does it make them a bad person or me a bad person? I do not know. The world has to have some sense of order right and wrong. Are Christians called to be perfect like Christ? Yes. Do I even know what that means? Not exactly. The Christian life is a journey, not a transformation. Not me. If it were to easy to stop sinning, then no need for Jesus. I personally do not understand. There is never an excuse for sinning, yet we Christians (are still humans) will sin. That is why I see it differently than you. I would not expect any Christians to always be models of virtue. That is a promise I cannot keep on the daily. If people were perfect, no need for repentance or forgiveness. It does not make sense to me, if I hold Christians to a higher standard, I become disappointed, I am lectured that I should not expect so much from other people after all they are just humans. This includes myself, I ultimately I am only humans as well. I will do what can with what I am given. I do not care to understand lofty ideas. I am honestly tired and a beginner of the faith, sometimes responses like yours sound like attacks and can be VERY DISCOURAGING.