seeing it from both sides

[Kater30]

I am writing this thread because even though I have heard from some writers on these boards to just ignore those people who post things that accuse non-catholics of being non-Christians and even of not loving the Lord to the fullest, I find it difficult to ignore. In fact, it hurts my feelings. I listen to Catholics ask questions over whether or not protestants are Christians and whether they really recieve the fullness of Christ and His power. I was raised a protestant and I’ve never doubted the power of Christ and his role in my life. When I take communion (what you call the eucharist), it means something to me more than pretty much anything else in my life. I can go on and on about my own life but I’m sure there are still some of you who will just discount what I have to say and blame it on being brought up protestant. So, I’m taking a different approach. I learned a long time ago that in order to have a good argument and be able to effectively defend your position, you must know BOTH sides of an argument. My position is that ALL Christians, Catholics and protestants included, should go out and preach the word of Christ to a dying world. We need to put aside our differences and focus on the One who made us all…God. Our missions is to go to all the ends of the earth baptizing in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28-the great commission). So, even as a Lutheran, I am going to use the Catholic Catechism to defend my position:

There are “”s because there are footnotes it’s quoting from…

~

In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church – for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.” The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body – here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism – do not occur without human sin:

“Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.”

“However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers…. All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

“Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

Catechism of the Catholic Church, p. 216, ISBN 0898704820

So, what does everyone think of that?

In Christ,
Katie

 

[Zooey]

Well, first of all, I’m a Methodist, so I am kinda like you…
I absolutely agree that all Christians need to share our faith. It makes me angry when people use this board to attack Catholic Christians; that is not only anti-Catholic, it is extremely rude. They need to find something better to do!!
On the other hand, some of these folks seem to come here just to get attention. They are not interested in sharing, nor are they really looking for converts.(If they were, they would, as you suggest, be going out to people that have no faith in Christ at all.) Instead, they seem to want to attack for the sake of attacking. You can usually spot them pretty fast after watching the posts for a while. I have learned to mostly just ignore them.( If they are particularly hateful, you can report them to a mod, & get them suspended.)
I guess what I am saying is that a lot depends, IMHO, on the individual you are dealing with.It also depends on just what they say! If they are attacking something precious to me, I lose my temper & post! I do realize that I may be giving them a “cheap thrill” by responding…

 

[gardenswithkids]

Those are beautiful quotes from the Catechism. Our unity in Christ is stronger than any of our divisions.

The Bible talks about “steel sharpening steel”, (and since I’m Catholic, I can’t remember which letter that is ) We can use these exchanges to sharpen our understanding of God and grow closer to Him. I appreciate the non-Catholic Christians (and even the non-Christians) who come to these boards to respectfully ask questions and engage in debate. I find myself reflecting on the words posted here throughout the day and praying for those I’ve encountered.

I expect that we will experience Christian unity in heaven when we no longer “see though a glass darkly but see Him face to face.”

Until then, there are differences in how our denominations and how each of us personally view God. Some of those views can’t co-exist with other views. We need not be afraid of seeking and sharing the truth for fear of offending those who don’t agree with us, but we do need to be respectful.

 

[Kater30]

gardenswithkids:

Those are beautiful quotes from the Catechism. Our unity in Christ is stronger than any of our divisions.

The Bible talks about “steel sharpening steel”, (and since I’m Catholic, I can’t remember which letter that is ) We can use these exchanges to sharpen our understanding of God and grow closer to Him. I appreciate the non-Catholic Christians (and even the non-Christians) who come to these boards to respectfully ask questions and engage in debate. I find myself reflecting on the words posted here throughout the day and praying for those I’ve encountered.

I expect that we will experience Christian unity in heaven when we no longer “see though a glass darkly but see Him face to face.”

Until then, there are differences in how our denominations and how each of us personally view God. Some of those views can’t co-exist with other views. We need not be afraid of seeking and sharing the truth for fear of offending those who don’t agree with us, but we do need to be respectful.

Oh I totally agree!! I know that Catholics get their share of prejudice and I am totally against that as well. I know a lot of Catholics that are just as on fire for God as other protestants that I know.

 

[Franze]

Well Katie, it´s important the eucharisty, it´s important being christian in all things including the prohibition to be divorced, bring Christ to the sexual relations because anti-conception isn´t biblical, we have to remember Onan or the marvellous thing that is children for the Bible, it´s important for Jesus, the church, not the churches, well, all these things are important, I am agree with ecumenism, but I am against if I have to low the level.

 

[vieille_terre]

Kater30:

I am going to use the Catholic Catechism to defend my position:

Right on, sister. And any Catholic who disagrees with your quotes should probably check the handbook for themselves.

 

[LisaB]

I think it’s important to distinguish between protestant religions and protestants themselves. Protestants, like all other people, deserve the same respect and love as everyone else. There is no qualitative difference between people – Catholics are not better or worse than Protestants.

At the same time, even though Jesus loved everyone and died for everyone, he didn’t say that we are free to create our own truth and that all teachings are created equal. He urged everyone to come to know the one objective truth that he taught. And that truth is still taught in the Catholic Church. Other churches teach some of this truth, but to the extent that they have abondoned some of the teachings of Christ’s Church, they don’t have the fullness of the truth. As Catholics, we have an obligation to proclaim Christ’s truth in all its entirety, which is why some Catholics put the same effort to evangelizing Protestants as non-Christians.

 

[TheGarg]

Kater30:

Oh I totally agree!! I know that Catholics get their share of prejudice and I am totally against that as well. I know a lot of Catholics that are just as on fire for God as other protestants that I know.

I love all my Christian brothers and sisters, and I am sorry if someone is rude. Let me offer you all another side of the Coin.

When a protestant says “I have exprerianced the Fullness of Chirst”, you could really give no bigger insult, or speak a greater Blashpemey to the Catholic Church. You have just, not out of spite, but out of ignorance, denounced all the Sacraments, save for baptism, and made them seem unimportant.

These Sacraments, and especially the Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Christ, have been reduced to something with no meaning or importance in one careless statement. Protestants do not believe in the Eucharist, as taught by the Christ’s Church, so no one other than member of His Church can know it’s fullness. This not being mean, this is just the way it is.

I can’t know what it is like to live in China, unless I live there. I certainly won’t be offended if a Chinaman says to me "you have not experiance the fullness of China, even though i go to chinese resturaunts.

The Sacraments have been taught by the Church since Christ instituted It long ago. They simply don’t disappear just because 1500+ years after Christ, some guy, or group of guys say they don’t exist.

The moral of this story is in my effort not to offend you, please take care in your efforts not to offend Catholics.

 

[TheGarg]

vieille terre:

Right on, sister. And any Catholic who disagrees with your quotes should probably check the handbook for themselves.

If you are going to use the CCC, then use all of it. This is a commen problem with protestants…they similarly use pieces of Scripture, usually out of context for their own benefit, to “defend THEIR postion”, instead of using it to “defend CHRIST’s position”.

 

[Kater30]

TheGarg:

If you are going to use the CCC, then use all of it. This is a commen problem with protestants…they similarly use pieces of Scripture, usually out of context for their own benefit, to “defend THEIR postion”, instead of using it to “defend CHRIST’s position”.

Fine. Then tell me where it goes to say something different? That’s the whole point of apologetics. Enlighten me.

 

[Joy1982]

TheGarg:

If you are going to use the CCC, then use all of it. This is a commen problem with protestants…they similarly use pieces of Scripture, usually out of context for their own benefit, to “defend THEIR postion”, instead of using it to “defend CHRIST’s position”.

Then please display exactly how that quote was used out of context. It seems pretty cut and dry to me.

It seems to me that the official stance of the Catholic Church is that Protestants are to be accepted as brothers and sisters in Christ. Tell me where I’m wrong.

Wasn’t it “Christ’s position” that others will know we are Christians if we love one another? How does openly insulting Protestants fit in with Christ’s position?

 

[Joy1982]

TheGarg:

When a protestant says “I have exprerianced the Fullness of Chirst”, you could really give no bigger insult, or speak a greater Blashpemey to the Catholic Church. You have just, not out of spite, but out of ignorance, denounced all the Sacraments, save for baptism, and made them seem unimportant.

You admit Protestants tend to say things like this out of ignorance. So why does it offend you?

TheGarg:

This not being mean, this is just the way it is.

Sometimes “tact” is more effective.

You say, “They simply don’t disappear just because 1500+ years after Christ, some guy, or group of guys say they don’t exist.”

“Some guy?”

You go on, “The moral of this story is in my effort not to offend you, please take care in your efforts not to offend Catholics.”

What effort not to offend are you referring to?

 

[Mickey]

**“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

 

[wcknight]

TheGarg:

I love all my Christian brothers and sisters, and I am sorry if someone is rude. Let me offer you all another side of the Coin.

When a protestant says “I have exprerianced the Fullness of Chirst”, you could really give no bigger insult, or speak a greater Blashpemey to the Catholic Church. You have just, not out of spite, but out of ignorance, denounced all the Sacraments, save for baptism, and made them seem unimportant.

These Sacraments, and especially the Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Christ, have been reduced to something with no meaning or importance in one careless statement. Protestants do not believe in the Eucharist, as taught by the Christ’s Church, so no one other than member of His Church can know it’s fullness. This not being mean, this is just the way it is.

I can’t know what it is like to live in China, unless I live there. I certainly won’t be offended if a Chinaman says to me "you have not experiance the fullness of China, even though i go to chinese resturaunts.

The Sacraments have been taught by the Church since Christ instituted It long ago. They simply don’t disappear just because 1500+ years after Christ, some guy, or group of guys say they don’t exist.

The moral of this story is in my effort not to offend you, please take care in your efforts not to offend Catholics.

I resemble those remarks. Sorry to take exception, but being a “Chinaman” myself, we prefer to be called Asian or Chinese, if you don’t mind.

The Chinaman term is rarely used anymore (and good riddance), and is considered by many to be quite derogatory. I’m sure no offense was meant and none is taken.

Thanks,
wc

 

[TheGarg]

Kater30:

Fine. Then tell me where it goes to say something different? That’s the whole point of apologetics. Enlighten me.

What i mean is you shuoldn’t use the CCC to make one arguement, but then deny other teachings of the CCC when they go against other personal beliefs you may have.

Its like saying
“The Catholic Church is right only if they agree with me”…it is hypocritical and prideful.

Sorry about the mis-communication.

 

[TheGarg]

wcknight:

I resemble those remarks. Sorry to take exception, but being a “Chinaman” myself, we prefer to be called Asian or Chinese, if you don’t mind.

The Chinaman term is rarely used anymore (and good riddance), and is considered by many to be quite derogatory. I’m sure no offense was meant and none is taken.

Thanks,
wc

My humblest apologies, sir. :bowdown:

sincerely, i did not mean to offend you.

Peace of the Lord be with you!

 

[TheGarg]

Joy1982:

You admit Protestants tend to say things like this out of ignorance. So why does it offend you?

It offends me because it offends Christ. It is blasphemy. I usually don’t show that I am offended, but then when I try to educate them[the ignorant], sometimes they get all defensive, and keep doing it anyway because they don’t want to believe it. Then they are no longer ignorant.

Sometimes “tact” is more effective.

Try it sometime.

You say, “They simply don’t disappear just because 1500+ years after Christ, some guy, or group of guys say they don’t exist.”

“Some guy?”

Martin Luther and the other deformers.

You go on, “The moral of this story is in my effort not to offend you, please take care in your efforts not to offend Catholics.”

What effort not to offend are you referring to?

I am just bringing a situation that I run into to light. It needs to be addressed.

If the discussing of the offending situation offends you, then I am still not sorry. Whether or not it offends people, it still needs to be discussed.

Personally I do my best to not offend Protestants, without Compromising the Truth. People don’t like to find out that they are wrong. Its hard to do it tactfully sometimes, especially with those that want to argue, for prideful reasons.

 

[coralewisjr]

Katie,
Thank you for reminding me that I need to see and treat everyone as if they are Christ.

Sometimes I get so caught up on the issues that divide Catholics and Protestants (and frustrated by anti-Catholic remarks from Protestants whose questions I’m trying to answer) that I don’t think about Protestants as charitably as I should. I long for everybody to come to the Catholic Church. We have the Eucharist (the Real Presence, transubstantiation), we have the Sacrament of Confession (I can’t imagine confessing straight to God), we have the Theology of the Body, we’re the only church that officially says that contraception is wrong, we have all kinds of religious orders, we know that sola fide, sola fide & once saved, always saved are wrong. Please pardon me if I ever offend you. I just hope that you can experience Christian life the way I have all my life someday. God bless you!

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne

 

[Mickey]

coralewisjr:

We have the Eucharist (the Real Presence, transubstantiation), we have the Sacrament of Confession (I can’t imagine confessing straight to God), we have the Theology of the Body, we’re the only church that officially says that contraception is wrong, we have all kinds of religious orders, we know that sola fide, sola fide & once saved, always saved are wrong. Please pardon me if I ever offend you. I just hope that you can experience Christian life the way I have all my life someday. God bless you!

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne

As a side note: “Theology of the Body” is absolutely amazing. I recommend that everyone become familiar with this teaching. There is an eleven Cd set available. For more information, check out this site:
theologyofthebody.net/

 

[Kater30]

I don’t think I’m going to respond in this post anymore, even though I started it. I have come to the realization that absolutely no one on this earth can measure my love for Jesus and the fullness that I experience in my Christian walk. No one but God can do something like that. I just went through a major surgery to prolong my life (gastric bypass) and I prayed very very often before going through with it. I promised myself that if I got through this I would serve Him to the best of my ability and go where He wants me to go. The best thing I can offer to the Lord is my life and I know I have done that. If He calls me to the Catholic Church, I will go. If he calls me to serve in a protestant congregation, I will go. If he calls me to build a hut in the jungle and spread His word to non-Christians, I will go.

I am a sinner, and I know that whole heartedly. I also know that Christ died a horrible death in my place for my sins. That is the bottom line. So, go ahead and tell me that I am prideful and tell me that I am wrong. I don’t care. Jesus had to put up with the same abuse.