Seeing my narcissistic/sociopathic mother again after almost two years...nervous and anxious...please advise?

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Meanwhile, pick up some practical solutions from the book, “Toxic Parents.”
 
underacloud said:
If it were me, I’d go, but with a plan:

a) First negative comment, your husband gives her a warning that you will leave if she continues.

b) Second negative comment, your husband tells her that you are all leaving, and then you all leave.

Would your husband be up to doing this? I suggest your husband because it takes the pressure off you.

I see two advantages to this approach. One being the possibility of a peaceful meeting. The scond being that if things do not go well, you leave on your terms, which I suggest may be quite empowering.
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She has tried this. Her mother is not just negative or rude. That can be addressed in the way you propose. Her mother is emotionally manipulative and very emotionally damaging for her to be around. Besides, why hold her trip with her family to the museum hostage?

Based on the unrepentant attitude her mother has shown, her mother’s willingness to dodge the daughter’s intention by subterfuge, and above all the OP’s visceral reaction against another meeting, I would suggest that the family plan to serenely leave any venue at which her mother appears, without exchanging so much as acknowledgement that she is there…sort of like you would if you unfortunately found that a venue was packed with bees and you had a bee sting allergy. Maybe it is disappointing, but it is just the wise thing to do. Even though she is young and strong and would probably survive it in this day and age with modern interventions, there is nothing that makes it worth taking the chance of going through that ordeal again!!
 
Above all, remember that your mother has squandered all expectation that you will ever agree to be around her again. She has *worked *at the place she has in your life, and whether or not she is “culpable,” it was her doing and not yours. She is a real threat to you, even if she is “innocent,” just as if she were a shark or a wolf or a bee with a sting that you are allergic to. Where she is, you can have no serenity, but only anxiety and an automatic flow of cortisol: Fight or Flight. When this changes, if this ever changes, you will know because everyone you know that knows her will say: She is a Totally Different Person. We Hardly Recognize Her. Even then, you would not owe her a meeting on this side of heaven.

She is the threat, OP, not you. The threat is not all in your head. It is real because her understanding of how to manipulate you and her willingness to do it are real. The damage she has done to you is real. The healing you have accomplished to repair that damage is real, and the work put into you by yourself and others to get you there is real. Do not apologize for refusing to treat it like an opinion or a “perception.”

Talk with your counsellor before you leave, and make sure you have messages rehearsed to coach yourself with, regardless of what she tries, and you have your husband ready to step into the breach and keep you insulated from her.

She has done enough damage. Do not apologize for keeping her from doing any more.
 
My mother is like this too.

Can I ask, why does she get to you? She can only get under your skin if you allow it. You can care about her from an objective standpoint of wishing the good for any stranger. But I would suggest that you try to start viewing her as a mentally ill person that you do not know, and detach from feeling affection for her. Because the truth is that people like thishave no real self; their whole operation is based on manipulating and reacting to others. I don’t mean this sarcastically or meanly, but she is a truly pathetic figure.

She will keep doing it as long as it elicits a response from you. Stop giving her that power! I can promise from experience that if you put on a detached, passive face around her, and repeatedly show her she can no longer get under your skin, she will move on. And you won’t have to be estranged from family you want to be in contact with.
 
Caroline723 said:
…Stop giving her that power! I can promise from experience that if you put on a detached, passive face around her, and repeatedly show her she can no longer get under your skin, she will move on. And you won’t have to be estranged from family you want to be in contact with.
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That is possible, but I don’t think you can* promise* that. Were I the OP, and had done the amount of work she has done to recover from her mother’s machinations, I would not be the first to jump back into the shark tank with a “tried and true” brand of shark repellant. I do not fault you for suggesting it, mind you! What you are suggesting has been known to work. I just wouldn’t fault the OP for not wanting to risk limbs that she already came far too close to losing while trying other “methods” of swimming with this creature.

As for the rest of the family, the day will come when contact with the person who was among the first to haul herself out of the toxic pond will make contact with her into an oasis, because it only ever happens far away from the reach of all the lies that have held so many captive.
 
EasterJoy said:
That is possible, but I don’t think you can* promise* that. Were I the OP, and had done the amount of work she has done to recover from her mother’s machinations, I would not be the first to jump back into the shark tank with a “tried and true” brand of shark repellant. I do not fault you for suggesting it, mind you! What you are suggesting has been known to work. I just wouldn’t fault the OP for not wanting to risk limbs that she already came far too close to losing while trying other “methods” of swimming with this creature.

As for the rest of the family, the day will come when contact with the person who was among the first to haul herself out of the toxic pond will make contact with her into an oasis, because it only ever happens far away from the reach of all the lies that have held so many captive.
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Yes, I was allowing for a little dramatic affect in promising; no I can’t promise anything on behalf of another person. But I am completely confident in this method, and it’s worked without fail every single time I’ve used it in response to the behavior the OP described.

I don’t see where the work the OP has done has born real fruit, based on her violent response to a passive aggressive comment. Therapy can only make one aware of the triggers; it doesn’t make us immune to them. And I don’t believe that she will achieve real peace with this person unless A) she permanently cuts contact, no exceptions; or B) she detached interiorly from reacting to the bait. Unfortunately, the only way to achieve B is exposure to the trigger. Maybe it would be better to start after her pregnancy is over. In my opinion, I don’t think she should allow this person to ruin her holiday.
 
ThyKingdomCome said:
Ordinarily, I would say that while you could back out, this could also be an opportunity for you to practice keeping yourself detached during a visit. And I would suggest to come up with several rote replies that can be applied to a variety of different things she might try to do. “Yes that’s right Mom” is a good one. Another good one that could be used when you don’t know what to say is, “Excuse me, I have to go to the bathroom/get a drink/take a child to the bathroom.”
But given what you wrote here, I would advise you not to visit with her at all. Clearly she has too strong of a hold on your emotions, to the point that it is dangerous for you and the baby. And I imagine that an actual visit will be more difficult than a short phone call. The way I see it, you could do one of two things:

1-let her know ahead of time that you have realized that you are not ready to meet with her and straight up cancel.

2-Have your husband plan on going with the kids, without you. They will not likely be hurt by a short, one time visit, and you will be able to shield yourself from what might very well hurt you and the baby. Just have your dh tell her that you aren’t feeling well and aren’t able to come. He can tell her ahead of time, or not.

You could also try to make arrangements to visit with your niece without contact with Mom, but I wouldn’t sacrifice the health/safety of the baby for the sake of seeing the niece.
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This.

In addition,try to foster a relationship with your mum but maybe wait until after you’ve had your baby as nows not the time for stress.
Always keep in mind that your mum isn’t wilfully “bad” but rather that she says things because their is disorder involved with her limbic system.
She might not be able to help the things she says or have the ability to choose her emotions so it’s important for you to not take things personally and also have a sense of humour around her.
 
Seriously, I would not go to meet her.

Please listen to Easter Joy.

Hugs and prayers :grouphug:
 
Given your reaction to a phone call I don’t think it’s wise or safe for you to meet her in person.

Either have your husband call her or your call her with a index card in front of you that has pre-written out statements that you won’t be meeting her.

It might be helpful for you to detach by focusing on what was already written in front of you. Have your husband there for moral support.

If it’s emotionally, mentally and physically unhealthy for you to be on the phone with her…don’t meet up with her.

Call and cancel. Don’t call her again. Don’t accept a phone call from her again.
 
Side thought.

Why not just send her a written letter simply stating you will not be going to the museum. Or an e-mail.

Even if she tries to go through other channels to claim she didn’t receive the message you’ll at least know you made an effort and that you did send her something.
 
Caroline723 said:
I don’t see where the work the OP has done has born real fruit, based on her violent response to a passive aggressive comment.
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Caroline,

This is an unfair assessment, and you have no way of knowing how hard I have worked and how far I have come in just shy of two years. Easter Joy, who was very helpful to me in beginning to understand what was happening in my relationship with my mother two years ago when I reached the point where I had had enough, has the better read on the situation.

And remember that my “violent” response was getting physically ill. I was not violent toward anybody, and that my reaction was due to my feeling of fear about seeing my mother again, not just some “passive aggressive comment”.

Honestly, I think that your ideas on how to handle this would be all wrong for me. I appreciate your desire to help, but I cannot just pretend that someone who has used, abused, manipulated, and gas-lighted me all my life, has no power over me whatsoever. I have heard that idea over and over again, but the reality is that it does not take into account the fact that this is my mother we are talking about, not some person I encountered later in life. This woman groomed me from birth to be her punching bag, and that is what I thought was normal, until I was old enough to leave home for college and I started realizing how much more like an actual human being I felt without her constant machinations. And then it still took years for me to figure out what was wrong and what my options were. It would have been far easier if she just punched and kicked me. 😦

Two years ago, I finally realized that she is actually a serious narcissist, or more likely, a sociopath. She has since been diagnosed with a series of initialed disorders, and has been in therapy, and she and my sister have reconciled. This is why I have reconsidered contact and communication. Well that, and the fact that I still struggle with guilt over cutting my mother out of my life, no matter what she has done.

Anyway, I think any analysis that blames me for allowing her to have power over me is cruel. You have stated that she only has the power that I have given her. So therefore, in your assessment, any emotional distress that I experience is my own fault. But would you make the same bold assertion to a person who has a black eye from getting punched by their abusive bully? I think you likely would not. And I contend that whether the injury is visible or invisible, it is the bully who is responsible for the person’s pain, and not the injured party.

Just out of curiosity, have you had any experience with people who have Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Antisocial Personality Disorder (sociopathy), Borderline Personality Disorder, or Bipolar Disorder?
 
Just to clarify for anyone responding with advice, my mother is not simply a negative person. She has actively sought ways to destroy people, and then acted on her plans. She has done so to my inlaws, who are detached enough to be able to observe her machinations almost with amusement, and only mild outrage at certain egregious actions. She totally destroyed my little sister by telling her from the age of about 6 or 7 that she thought my sister was possessed by the devil (I just found this out last year when my sister tearfully asked me, her Catholic big sister, if it was possible that mom was right all these years). So, this is not just some mental illness. This is a person who has done some really destructive things, on purpose, with pleasure. After my sister moved back to our hometown, and had her second baby last year, and yet still reconciled with my mother despite all her “past” evil intentions, for the sake of my sister and niece, I have tried to reestablish some sort of communication, but it was ill-advised, I am quickly seeing. I now realize that my sister is currently being gas-lighted (and groomed as my mother’s newest preferred target since I am not around) and that it more likely that the “therapy” my mother is engaged in is just more narcissistic indulgence. Otherwise, why would she make comments about how easily she sees my vulnerabilities and my attempts to protect myself and my kids? I feel like her comment was my warning shot across the bow. It is so hard to explain. This is not just negativity. This is…something else. It is a situation where I can sense (after several years of trying to understand what was happening) that my mother wants to destroy me, and will use anything and everything at her disposal to do so. I don’t know why I ever thought that she could change.

I really don’t think I can do the museum visit. :nope:
 
My mother passed away in 2013. And when she became extremely ill, we were able to patch things up.

Before that, she was a horrible alcoholic. Her behavior was really unspeakable. And no one in the family would stick up for me when she made horribly vile comments to me. When I went to see her, I just got sick from the thought of it.

I ultimately discussed the matter with my priest, and he said distancing myself from my mother was OK.

I am glad that my mother and I had an opportunity to patch things up before she passed away. She was no longer able to drink. I spent lots of time with her. And her behavior was much better even though she was terminally ill.

Once she was off the booze, she was a different person. I’m sorry she wasted so many years of her life getting drunk. I encouraged her to get help. But no one in the family backed me up.

I realized how much I could love her when she wasn’t a drunk.

I hope she’s resting in peace. She could be an absolutely amazing woman.

Talk to your priest and see whether he has any advice for you.

+++++++++

St. Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the Devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray,
and do thou,
O Prince of the heavenly hosts,
by the power of God,
thrust into hell Satan,
and all the evil spirits,
who prowl about the world
seeking the ruin of souls. Amen…

+++++++++

:signofcross:
 
Caroline723 said:
Yes, I was allowing for a little dramatic affect in promising; no I can’t promise anything on behalf of another person. But I am completely confident in this method, and it’s worked without fail every single time I’ve used it in response to the behavior the OP described.

I don’t see where the work the OP has done has born real fruit, based on her violent response to a passive aggressive comment. Therapy can only make one aware of the triggers; it doesn’t make us immune to them. And I don’t believe that she will achieve real peace with this person unless A) she permanently cuts contact, no exceptions; or B) she detached interiorly from reacting to the bait. Unfortunately, the only way to achieve B is exposure to the trigger. Maybe it would be better to start after her pregnancy is over. In my opinion, I don’t think she should allow this person to ruin her holiday.
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Do you know what gaslighting is? It goes well beyond a garden variety passive-aggressive manipulation. It is far beyond a guilt trip, for example. It is when a person uses manipulative means to undermine another person’s sense of reality. Usually, this means twisting the truth or pretending to defend outright false information as if it were the undeniable truth, with the intention of making victim doubt her own memory, perception, and sanity. Sometimes, the abuser even stages situations to con the victim into believing that her own perceptions of reality are not trustworthy.

I cannot tell you how much damage a person like that can do. If you have someone like that in your life, someone who has gaslighted you over and over, someone who knows your human weak spots so well so as to be able to do it to you even after you were on to the tactic, you should stay as far from that person as possible. That is an ambush predator. Under no circumstances should a person willing to unrepentantly treat you in such a manner be trusted. Period.

To forgive such a person is to let go of ill will against them. It doesn’t mean trusting them. If you forgive a thief, it doesn’t mean you hire the guy as a bank teller. If he is an unrepentant thief, and a violent one at that, you keep him where he cannot repeat the harm. It keeps you from being harmed, but it also keeps him from a near occasion of serious sin, and further damage to his own soul. Those sinned against most habitually and sinned against most easily: it is those persons who provide the greatest temptation, even to the one who has truly repented and desires to amend his or her life. That victim and that abuser ought to stay apart, by mutual consent.
 
njlisa said:
…Once she was off the booze, she was a different person…
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Addiction can make* anyone* into a liar, a thief, and an abuser of trust. It is the great hijacker of character, and no one should count themselves immune to its power. When the addicted and/or alcoholic person becomes clean and sober and begins to address those things for which the addiction was “medication,” however, that person can indeed become a different person. This is particularly true when the addict or alcoholic had a sterling character before falling into addiction.

A person who has had no conscience or sense of shame over harming others to reach his or her own ends in his or her entire life, however, has a very difficult road to a good character. They only have their intellect and will power to carry them, and no help from their emotions. Even though these are among the most dangerous people there are, I would not leap to the conclusion that some of them do not do more good with less good help than many of us do. They feel no consolation in altruism, but have to take the word of others that “it feels good to do good.” The point is not to demonize them, then. The point is not to be left naively vulnerable to their real character flaws, which are no less real even if the person of bad character is not entirely culpable for how harmful he or she is to others.
 
mommamaree said:
I really don’t think I can do the museum visit. :nope:
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The Charge of the Light Brigade and Pickett’s Charge were not an issue of “could,” were they? The brave “can do anything.” If fidelity to God required it, you could walk through the valley of darkness. There is nothing that will harm you in the ultimate sense.

In retrospect, however, there is no reason to brave such a situation unless real good may be expected to come from it. As it is, there is no redeeming outcome on the horizon that recommends this meeting. There is going to be no one there to hold your mother to account if she uses this meeting in a bad way. There is no reason to believe that she knows what a good end would really be, let alone that she is pursuing that good end–which is to say, a positive outcome according to anyone’s point of view except her own. Is that correct?

My sense is that she is clearly looking out for herself, and for herself only. No good is going to come from attempting some measure of reconciliation under that circumstance. Until she recognizes the good of some other person–any other person!–as more important than her immediate self-centered desires, then you would be wise to continue to let her experience the consequence of her pattern of behavior. If that does not wake her up, nothing will. If she does not change her habitual objectives, she’ll only do harm to those who get within her gun sights.

As for your relatives still within her grasp, would it not have done you good in their place to see someone standing up to your mother and mindfully removing themselves light years from her machinations, all without ill will towards her? “Yes! She can do it, and* I can do it, too. I can tell her that I am going to trust myself instead of her. I can *refuse to subject myself to her lies. I do have the authority to let myself out of this prison. I *can *do it!” Your example may be what helps them the most, even more than your direct presence.
 
At this moment, my thoughts about how to proceed are these:

Inform her prior to the visit that under no circumstances will we allow any physical contact to be initiated by her. If my kids, with their innocent loving hearts, want to give her a hug, I will allow that. But with her history of using a “hug” to threaten someone, and the fact that she dotes on male children and verbally attacks female children, I am not going to allow her to initiate anything.

I will also give her fair warning that if she makes any critical comments about myself, my husband, my children, my sister or niece or nephew, my step-dad (her ex-husband), or anyone else whom I know or care about, that the visit is over and we will leave. Similarly, if she tries to talk about personal matters or her therapy or our family history, we will leave.

Furthermore, I will inform her that she may not mention, critique or second-guess any of our boundaries, or we will leave.

I know that I cannot build a fence around her. My boundaries work only for myself and those under my own authority. But I am not going to make the effort to appear at the museum for a visit, unless I have given prior notice of my boundaries to her. At the very least, when we do have to leave early, I will not be kicking myself for not having given fair warning in advance, and I will be mentally prepared to follow through on exactly what I stated up front that I would do.

I already know that I have let her too far back into my life. My husband and I believe that both of us are still trying to wrap our brains around the idea that she is a dangerous person, despite all the years of evidence. His opinion is that now and then, until we prove it to ourselves, that we will reach out to touch the flame again and see if we get burnt. And that the only reason we are such slow learners in this matter is because this involves my mother, and not some other less-central figure in our lives. We had no compunction about cutting out some frenemies recently who behave in much the same manner.

So in preparation for our trip back home, we are going to create a list of boundaries for ourselves, and mentally prepare ourselves for having to defend those boundaries. Also, we will communicate our expectations to my mother. If she reacts badly, then we will simply cancel our visit. It would not be the first time we have gone back home and not seen her or some other family member who could not be trusted to not be abusive or manipulative.
 
EasterJoy said:
As for your relatives still within her grasp, would it not have done you good in their place to see someone standing up to your mother and mindfully removing themselves light years from her machinations, all without ill will towards her? “Yes! She can do it, and* I can do it, too. I can tell her that I am going to trust myself instead of her. I can *refuse to subject myself to her lies. I do have the authority to let myself out of this prison. I *can *do it!” Your example may be what helps them the most, even more than your direct presence.
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To whom are you referring here? My children, or my inlaws? I cannot quite grasp the perspective you are using here.

She is no longer allowed to speak to my inlaws. I have told her to stop contacting them, and I have requested that they not speak to her. I have explained that she will attempt to destroy them to get to me, and that she will attempt to poison my relationship with them. Armed with that information, they immediately refused any further contact with her, which they had only tolerated for my sake before.

My children have not seen nor spoken to her in two years. Prior to that, she was never allowed to be alone with them, ever, since they were born. My oldest, who is 9, has some idea that my mother is not a safe person and that, though I love her, that I do not allow her to have much access to us. My other children are much too young to have any perspective on this.

Edited to add: or were you referring to my sister and niece and nephew, perhaps?
 
I don’t quite understand why you’d want to let her interact with you at all. She’s blood relation… so what? She’s also a serial abuser of her own children and is either so deluded that she does not believe you or anyone else when they inform her of the harm she’s done, or she doesn’t care.

I don’t see any reason to allow her in your life. At all. Ever. You’d all very likely be better off without her. Don’t sacrifice your sanity, your husband and your children in an effort to reach out to your niece.

Contact her directly if you can and try to establish some kind of rapport without your mother as middleman. If you can’t, well maybe you can try when she’s an adult.

Again, just because someone is family doesn’t mean you are obligated to stay connected with that person. Pray for her certainly. Love her as best you can as a Christian. But why expose yourself to that poison? Ever?!
 
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