Seeking a balanced description of Mormoninsm

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Something like what is described in Rev. 15?

Paul
The “sea of glass” in Revelation 15 has nothing to do with peep stones. It is obviously (if read in context) part of the overall imagery in chaper 15 of the peace and the power surrounding the throne of God. The sea being described as “like glass” is, as any boater will tell you, an icon of absolute calm and peace.

God love you,
Paul
 
If you want true Catholic teaching, I’d reccommend reading Scott Hahn, or Ted Sri, or listening to John Martignoni, any of the church fathers or perhaps taking it a step further by reading what the popes have to say on the subject(s). 😦
I must correct myself, I mentioned Ted Sri, but he goes by Edward. Also, a while ago I said I wasn’t going to continue this thread, but I simply couldn’t help but get enthralled by the discussions. Still was offended earlier, but decided to just brush it off instead and hopefully bring a sense of peace to the conversation instead of running away from a fight like I normally do. (Hate confrontation!) Wasn’t meaning to stay, but I’m still here. Oh well…🤷
 
I will give you one bit of advice. If I wanted to know what Catholics believe, I would ask Catholics, not Catholic apostates. Similarly, if you want to know what Mormons believe, you ask Mormons, not Mormon apostates. They will only lead you astray. They will not teach you the truth about Mormonism.

zerinus
I agree it is a good starting point to first find out the beliefs of a religion from the horse’s mouth. But it’s naive to think this would be a thorough enough method to get the complete picture. All sources must be considered, especially in the case of Mormonism where beliefs change in relatively short periods of time. Many current Mormons are very unaware of past teachings of their church and just how much they have changed over time. So relying strictly on information from current members will give a very incomplete picture. And it’s also naive to automatically dismiss anything said by former Mormons just because they don’t happen to believe in the church anymore. That’s like putting your head in the sand. Obviously every church has members that convert to other religions, which makes them, as Zerinus so callously puts it, an “apostate” from their former religion. I doubt if Zerinus would dismiss everything Catholic converts to the Mormon faith say about Catholicism.
 
I agree it is a good starting point to first find out the beliefs of a religion from the horse’s mouth. But it’s naive to think this would be a thorough enough method to get the complete picture. All sources must be considered, especially in the case of Mormonism where beliefs change in relatively short periods of time. Many current Mormons are very unaware of past teachings of their church and just how much they have changed over time. So relying strictly on information from current members will give a very incomplete picture. And it’s also naive to automatically dismiss anything said by former Mormons just because they don’t happen to believe in the church anymore. That’s like putting your head in the sand. Obviously every church has members that convert to other religions, which makes them, as Zerinus so callously puts it, an “apostate” from their former religion. I doubt if Zerinus would dismiss everything Catholic converts to the Mormon faith say about Catholicism.
👍
 
No, the very idea is antithetical to the Mormon experience, which at its heart is very individualistic.

Why is this antithetical? Are there rules stating that there are no rules? I’m confused…:confused:
 
Tsuzuki;3166202:
No, the very idea is antithetical to the Mormon experience, which at its heart is very individualistic.

Why is this antithetical? Are there rules stating that there are no rules? I’m confused…:confused:
Sorry, I guess I should have asked why the Mormon experience as you put it is so individualistic.
 
A good question is, does the LDS church have a source that is comparable to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, that sums up all of its beliefs in a clear and concise manner? If not, why not? If anyone, Catholic or non-Catholic, wants to know what the Catholic Church teaches on a particular topic, they just need to find a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is available at the local library, the bookstore, and even on the internet. Is there any source similar to this in the LDS church?
Yes, it is called the standard works. Take a look at this post, where I have already discussed it at some length.

zerinus
 
I agree it is a good starting point to first find out the beliefs of a religion from the horse’s mouth. But it’s naive to think this would be a thorough enough method to get the complete picture. All sources must be considered, especially in the case of Mormonism where beliefs change in relatively short periods of time. Many current Mormons are very unaware of past teachings of their church and just how much they have changed over time. So relying strictly on information from current members will give a very incomplete picture. And it’s also naive to automatically dismiss anything said by former Mormons just because they don’t happen to believe in the church anymore. That’s like putting your head in the sand. Obviously every church has members that convert to other religions, which makes them, as Zerinus so callously puts it, an “apostate” from their former religion. I doubt if Zerinus would dismiss everything Catholic converts to the Mormon faith say about Catholicism.
I have never met a former Catholic turned Mormon who has spoken evil of the Catholic Church. They don’t consider it to be the one true church any more; but I have never met one who still does not hold it in high regard, treats it with respect, and speaks of it with affection. Many of them have appeared on this board, but I have never met one who has spoken evil of the Catholic Church. That is the difference.

zerinus
 
Sorry, I guess I should have asked why the Mormon experience as you put it is so individualistic.
It is not. See above.

That is what I meant when I told you you should not take notice of Mormon apostates. You can see it in action here.

zerinus
 
It is not. See above.

That is what I meant when I told you you should not take notice of Mormon apostates. You can see it in action here.

zerinus
I still can’t agree that I should ignore “Mormon apostates”. Everyone has an opinion and I’d like to hear it.
 
It is not. See my reply to Lucy above.

zerinus
Ok, I looked at the site you gave and have loads more questions. I feel the problem with looking at the Bible alone is that it is subject to interpretation to many people. Two people looking at the same passage will derive two different (if not more) meanings from it. So how do you know which interpretation is correct? This, I believe, is the reason there are soo many other religions in the world- because everyone is left to interpret divine scripture for themselves and then argue over who’s right and who’s wrong.

As for the Catechism changing constantly, I disagree. Slight changes may occur to the times we live in, but the Church has stood it’s ground in teaching of faith and morals provided by the pope and divinely inspired. I sense a misinterpretation here so I’ll clarify by saying that this is not to say we discard the Bible at all! Everything we do is Bible oriented really, but the Bible alone while perfect is read by imperfect minds. So Jesus instituted the Catholic Church through the laying on of hands and Bishop of Rome to help us mere folk figure it all out. Of course we change, but only on the things the Catholic church has not deemed absolute. The Catholic Church is based upon Scripture and Tradition! Tradition which goes back to the days Jesus walked this Earth!

We also believe our pope is infallible on the subject of Faith and Morals which is a miracle/gift given to us. So it is not some random group of guys in robes deciding what they think is best for us, but the Holy Spirit working through our leader.

Hope that makes sense. If I misspoke (all you other Catholics out there) please let me know. But I’m pretty sure (99.9999%) I’m correct here.
 
I still can’t agree that I should ignore “Mormon apostates”. Everyone has an opinion and I’d like to hear it.
I suppose that approach is OK as a matter of principle. I don’t think I can find fault with that. But you also need to know where they are coming from, and how much weight you need to give to what they say.

Let me ask you a question. I take it that you are faithful Catholic, and you would be pleased to see me convert to Catholicism! Would you recommend me to obtain my information about the Catholic Church from Catholic apostates who berate it, call it all kinds of names, think that it is the church of the devil, and the Pope is an anti-Christ?

If I told you that “everybody has an opinion, and therefore deserves to be listened to,” what would your reply be?

zerinus
 
Sorry, just realized there was more to your post than I thought. I’ll have to take this step by step…

You said: “Secondly, a catechism, no matter how well prepared, can never provide an answer to every conceivable or unexpected doctrinal, theological, procedural or moral question that can arise in the Church. The word of God, however, always seems to have an ability to give us answers to every unexpected theological or moral question, or an unexpected situation we may find ourselves in life.”

This would be true if random people put it together, but it is a combination of teachings, most of which has been given to us from our pope (see previous reply) and Tradition.

And we do not see the Catechism as replacing the Bible in any way! Please don’t accuse us of that, it’s just wrong!!!

Also, what do you mean by standard works? I didn’t see any explanation of what that means to you…

You also state: "The role of the Catechism of the Catholic Church initially was simply to provide basic instructional material for use by new members, or those being instructed to become members of the church—hence the meaning of the words “catechize,” “catechist,” and “catechumen”. "

This is true and it still is. Anyone who uses the Catechism solely is not using it the way it was/is intended. The purpose has not changed as you have suggested. That said, the Catechism is based on inerrant truths of the church. The majority of it is actually if not all, not sure on the percentage here, but you get my point. So in a way, yes, it is a “standard document to officially and authoritatively define the doctrine of the Catholic Church.” It is certainly not the only source we use either, again tradition, scripture and the church Jesus set on this earth.

You also said :

“As the Catholic Church has over many centuries drifted away from its original shores, and wandered off into uncertain waters, the Catechism has acquired a significance that it originally did not have”

What uncertain waters are you talking about.??? I see none.
 
Hi,

By the “standard works” we mean the scriptural canon of the Church, which consists of the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. I had explained that in my blog post, if you read it carefully enough. I will here try to cover briefly as many of the points you have raised in your last two posts as possible.

First, let me make it clear that the LDS Church is not “individualistic”. It is anything but! Anybody who thinks that it is has not understood it. It is indeed true that Church members are encouraged to “think for themselves;” but the LDS church has a very well-defined and strict organizational or ecclesiastical structure that is perfectly capable of defining its basic doctrines, so that its members need not be in doubt about that. In this respect it resembles a lot the Catholic Church. It has a prophet-leader at its head whose function in many ways resembles that of the Pope. It has a priesthood line of authority through which cannel instruction from the leadership is passed on to the members. Twice a year a general conference of the Church is held in which the general members of the Church are instructed by their leaders. You state:
I feel the problem with looking at the Bible alone is that it is subject to interpretation to many people. Two people looking at the same passage will derive two different (if not more) meanings from it. So how do you know which interpretation is correct? This, I believe, is the reason there are soo many other religions in the world- because everyone is left to interpret divine scripture for themselves and then argue over who’s right and who’s wrong.
Our experience is that this simply does not happen. The only way that I can explain it is to ask you to give me an example. Do you know of any instance when members of the LDS Church have wondered off and organized a new church because they were not clear what the Church’s position on a certain doctrinal matter was? I don’t know of even one. There have been people who have left the Church and organized their own religion; but they have never done so because they were not clear about what the Church’s position was. The have always known exactly what the Church’s position was, and just disagreed with it. You also state:
This would be true if random people put it together, but it is a combination of teachings, most of which has been given to us from our pope (see previous reply) and Tradition.

And we do not see the Catechism as replacing the Bible in any way! Please don’t accuse us of that, it’s just wrong!!!
I did not say that the Catechism completely replaces the Bible. But I have seen in many instances on this board when Catholics use the Catechism as the primary reference point for defining the theology of their religion. In the LDS Church that primacy is given to the scriptural canon of the Church. It is not true that that approach leads to a multiplicity of interpretations. You must give me some examples. I don’t think that you can find any. LDS generally agree on the fundamental principles of their religion. We believe that all Church members receive the gift of the Holy Ghost when they are baptized and confirmed members of the Church, and hands are laid upon them for the gift of the Holy Ghost. We believe that when they retain the companion of the Holy Spirit, they are able to agree among themselves, and with the leadership of the Church what the basic doctrines of the Church should be. Experience has shown that in practice that is in fact the case. Jesus commanded His disciples to “be one” (John 17:11, 21, 22). I think that you will find greater unanimity of belief among the members of the LDS Church regarding its basic doctrines than among many other churches.

What would you do if the Bible and the Catechism disagreed? Perhaps you will say, they don’t! Well, we have reasons to disagree.

zerinus
 
I’ve noticed an interesting contrast when reading posts by many ex-Catholics as compared with post from ex-Mormons. When an ex-Catholic returns to this site it’s usually in a spirit of sharing and testifying. The posts by ex-Mormons on the other hand are full of hatred and condemnation. This is also true of many of the posts by Catholics responding to ex-Catholics.
I have to completely disagree with you. You must be selectively reading posts because this is simply not the case. And I’m not sure which ex-Catholics you’re talking about because there doesn’t seem to be many ex-Catholic Mormons posting here. If there are, they don’t seem to be identifying themselves as such.
 
I have never met a former Catholic turned Mormon who has spoken evil of the Catholic Church. They don’t consider it to be the one true church any more; but I have never met one who still does not hold it in high regard, treats it with respect, and speaks of it with affection. Many of them have appeared on this board, but I have never met one who has spoken evil of the Catholic Church. That is the difference.

zerinus
We’ll I guess you’re not an ex-Catholic then.
 
I did not say that the Catechism completely replaces the Bible. But I have seen in many instances on this board when Catholics use the Catechism as the primary reference point for defining the theology of their religion.

We use the Catechism on this site to explain what the Church teaches for the same reason that we use the dictionary to give the definition of words. It’s simple, concise, and leaves little room for interpretation.
 
I have to completely disagree with you. You must be selectively reading posts because this is simply not the case. And I’m not sure which ex-Catholics you’re talking about because there doesn’t seem to be many ex-Catholic Mormons posting here. If there are, they don’t seem to be identifying themselves as such.
I agree with him 100%. There is a former Catholic turned Mormon who occasionally posts here (although I haven’t seen a post from him for a while lately) called rmcmullan. You can go to advanced search and search for his posts. I did a search, and here is a list of his latest posts. Read it and tell me where he speaks badly of the Catholic Church

Before that there used to be another former Catholic turned Mormon who used to post here who called himself TOmNossor. Some of his posts are still available in the archives. I did a search, and this is what I found. I would like you to read them and tell me where he speaks evil of the Catholic Church. There must have been others, but I can’t think of them right now.

If you mean business, why don’t you show us a few examples to prove your point? Give us just one example to convince us that what you are saying is true.

zerinus
 
There have been people who have left the Church and organized their own religion; but they have never done so because they were not clear about what the Church’s position was. The have always known exactly what the Church’s position was, and just disagreed with it.
Yet someone who was a mormon, knows exactly what the LDS Church teaches, and leaves, is an ignorant apostate that shouldn’t be relied on for mormon information?

The only difference is that the “apostates” here, who you claim are totally ignorant of all things mormon, is that we chose Catholicism, rather than making up a religion that is based (however loosely) on mainstream mormonism.
 
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