Seeking good defence of Church against SSPX accusations

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mitch2007

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In another thread (SSPX “converts” to Rome) I related my difficult situation what with my own estrangement from the SSPX and my wife’s continued attachment.

Now the SSPX priest is visiting and he knows my position and of his own accord gave me as a gift the Angelus Press (SSPX) book “A Catechism of the Crisis in the Church”. This he seems to using in his “conferences” to dissuade chapel members from attending regular TLMs. It is basically a lentghy question-and-answer screed against the evils of Vatican II, the Novus Ordo, the “conciliar” Popes - all is heresy and doom and gloom outside of us, the approved traditional orders are traitors etc, religious liberty is an error, etc and catalogues the ecumenical excceses of Pope Bld John Paul II and the present Pope. It is rife with SSPX rhetoric and totally one-sided. In the hands of a “simple”, pious traditionalist like my wife, it is dangerous as it is so one-sided and will scandalise and confuse and lead her away from the church by sowing more hatred and resentment against the church’s leaders and encouraging the bunker mentality. What makes it hard is that I am very hardpressed to defend some things post-Vatican II. I am not keen on the Novus Ordo and sympathise with its critics’ complaints; I also think ecumenical gestures have gone overboard, eg Assisi. But the book’s presentation is extreme and unbalanced.
Apart from disposing of the book before my wife reads it (she wants to) what do you suggest? are there good, intelligent, comprehensive and up to date defences of the Church and Popes against the rhetoric in this book? Up to date is important. And appeals to blind trust won’t cut it with my wife - she won’t see that as answering criticisms. Help!!??!!
 
mitch2007 said:
In another thread (SSPX “converts” to Rome) I related my difficult situation what with my own estrangement from the SSPX and my wife’s continued attachment.

Now the SSPX priest is visiting and he knows my position and of his own accord gave me as a gift the Angelus Press (SSPX) book “A Catechism of the Crisis in the Church”. This he seems to using in his “conferences” to dissuade chapel members from attending regular TLMs. It is basically a lentghy question-and-answer screed against the evils of Vatican II, the Novus Ordo, the “conciliar” Popes - all is heresy and doom and gloom outside of us, the approved traditional orders are traitors etc, religious liberty is an error, etc and catalogues the ecumenical excceses of Pope Bld John Paul II and the present Pope. It is rife with SSPX rhetoric and totally one-sided. In the hands of a “simple”, pious traditionalist like my wife, it is dangerous as it is so one-sided and will scandalise and confuse and lead her away from the church by sowing more hatred and resentment against the church’s leaders and encouraging the bunker mentality. What makes it hard is that I am very hardpressed to defend some things post-Vatican II. I am not keen on the Novus Ordo and sympathise with its critics’ complaints; I also think ecumenical gestures have gone overboard, eg Assisi. But the book’s presentation is extreme and unbalanced.
Apart from disposing of the book before my wife reads it (she wants to) what do you suggest? are there good, intelligent, comprehensive and up to date defences of the Church and Popes against the rhetoric in this book? Up to date is important. And appeals to blind trust won’t cut it with my wife - she won’t see that as answering criticisms. Help!!??!!
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🍿
 
What book?

oh nevermind, haven’t read it so no comment.

I can’t believe you called your wife simple though. That wouldn’t be going over well here.
 
Okay. let me practice being charitable.

Assuming this thread was not created with the intention of being a free for all for anti-SSPX posts, are there any specific points in the book you would like help with?

Did I do okay? 😃
 
TrueLight said:
Well, it’s on Amazon, but I’m not going to post the link.

Maybe the OP will come back and give more details.
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Oh, alright. I thought perhaps the wording of the title was slightly off, or something like that.
 
Well, as the OP, I suppose I should give more info as asked:

The author of the book is Fr Matthias Gaudron and the book - with the title as given - was published by Angelus Press in 2010. I know the extracts were published in The Angelus magazine (SSPX magazine), and possibly are being published. I know this as my mother-in-law subscribes to the magazine and until recently used to lend it to me.

My intention is NOT to initiate an anti-SSPX rant. As I mentioned in another thread, I do still attend the SSPX. I have a great love for the Traditional Latin Mass, or Extraordinary Form, and prefer it to tje Ordinary Form all other things being equal, though I accept the OF as a valid and legitimate rite.

My problem with the book - well over 200 pages of it - is that is very “one sided”. It is highly critical of the OF as a Protestant rite designed to undermine people’s faith; it attacks the Popes viciouslly and catalogues all manner of ecumenical abuses and errors in Vatican II. The “approved” traditional orders are made out to be traitors and quislings.

Basically I am looking for apologetic material defending the Church and the Popes and the Novus Ordo against accusations of error, indifferentism, etc, made by the SSPX in general as exemplified by this book.
 
Thanks for the clarification.
mitch2007 said:
My problem with the book - well over 200 pages of it - is that is very “one sided”.
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Why wouldn’t it be one-sided? It is written by an SSPX priest and is probably an apologetics book for the SSPX.

Can you maybe quote one point made in the book so that folks can tackle that one point, and then another and so on and so forth?
 
Gosh, where to start…the book as 230 pages! Basically it runs the gamut of issues in contention between the SSPX and the Holy See…Vatican II, ecumenism, religious liberty, collegiality, the liturgical changes, the Novus Ordo, the conciliar Popes and especially John Paul II’s ecumenical gestures, the betrayal by the Ecclesia Dei communities, the 1988 episcopal consecrations by Archbishop Lefebvre…and obviously it sets out the SSPX position, so I must admit it is inevitably one-sided. However, it seems an intemparate and hostile attack on all Catholics outside the SSPX. My intention wasn’t to discuss specific allegations of the SSPX - all of which would need their own thread. I am looking for a good general resource which could assist in defending the Church against the likes of the SSPX and their rhetoric as exemplified in this book.

But since you ask for examples…from page 31:

"Are there any similar examples (of papal conduct which in the past would have carried the note of heresy or apostasy…similar to praying with Protestant leaders)?

There is worse: participation in idolatrous rites. In August of 1985 John Paul II participated in an animist rite in the sacred forest of Togo. On Februuabry 2, 1986, at Bombay, he received on his forehead the Tilac, which symbolises the Hindu deity Shiva’s third eye. On February 5, at Madrasn he received the Vibhuti (sacred ashes)n a sign of adorers of Shiva and Vishnu."

From pages 229 and 230, questions (I won’t give answers in this post, questions alone suggest the answer!)…

“Which are the communities that obtained permission to use the traditional liturgy in exchange for their silence about the errors of Vatican II?”

“Can the episcoal consecrations of 1988 then be conidered to be a great victory of Catholic Tradition?”

Anyone??
 
mitch2007 said:
In another thread (SSPX “converts” to Rome) I related my difficult situation what with my own estrangement from the SSPX and my wife’s continued attachment.

Now the SSPX priest is visiting and he knows my position and of his own accord gave me as a gift the Angelus Press (SSPX) book “A Catechism of the Crisis in the Church”. This he seems to using in his “conferences” to dissuade chapel members from attending regular TLMs. It is basically a lentghy question-and-answer screed against the evils of Vatican II, the Novus Ordo, the “conciliar” Popes - all is heresy and doom and gloom outside of us, the approved traditional orders are traitors etc, religious liberty is an error, etc and catalogues the ecumenical excceses of Pope Bld John Paul II and the present Pope. It is rife with SSPX rhetoric and totally one-sided. In the hands of a “simple”, pious traditionalist like my wife, it is dangerous as it is so one-sided and will scandalise and confuse and lead her away from the church by sowing more hatred and resentment against the church’s leaders and encouraging the bunker mentality. What makes it hard is that I am very hardpressed to defend some things post-Vatican II. I am not keen on the Novus Ordo and sympathise with its critics’ complaints; I also think ecumenical gestures have gone overboard, eg Assisi. But the book’s presentation is extreme and unbalanced.
Apart from disposing of the book before my wife reads it (she wants to) what do you suggest? are there good, intelligent, comprehensive and up to date defences of the Church and Popes against the rhetoric in this book? Up to date is important. And appeals to blind trust won’t cut it with my wife - she won’t see that as answering criticisms. Help!!??!!
Click to expand...
Though I have not read the book myself, you might consider purchasing a book called, “More Catholic Than the Pope,” by Patrick Madrid and Pete Vere.
Vere has a doctorate in canon law, and is a former adherent of the SSPX. I’ve read Vere’s analysis of the SSPX situation elsewhere, and have found it to be reasonable.

Here’s an article which reviews the book, which may help you in your situation with your wife.

ad2000.com.au/articles/2005/aug2005p18_2038.html

This book is available from Amazon for about $10.00.
 
Disclaimer to my last post:

The quote furnished which cast extremely negative aspersions on Blessed John Paul II in no way was intended by me as an attack on the late of Holy Father. I have not been a regular contributor to CAF but I do understand the criticisms of him are not allowed, still less attacks. I want to make it clear beyond any ambiguity that I do not share the views of the Pope implied by the quote. The quote was given merely to illustrate the general tone of the book.

Thank you.
 
Denise1957 said:
Though I have not read the book myself, you might consider purchasing a book called, “More Catholic Than the Pope,” by Patrick Madrid and Pete Vere.
Vere has a doctorate in canon law, and is a former adherent of the SSPX. I’ve read Vere’s analysis of the SSPX situation elsewhere, and have found it to be reasonable.

Here’s an article which reviews the book, which may help you in your situation with your wife.

ad2000.com.au/articles/2005/aug2005p18_2038.html

This book is available from Amazon for about $10.00.
Click to expand...
Thanks Denise. In fact, I already have that book and was thinking about using it. I feel ashamed to say this, but I bought it online without my wife knowing. She is very sensitive of late to any criticism of the SSPX…though she is happy to attend non-SSPX TLMs (or at least is prepared to attend), he family are very “anti” and totally and exclusively SSPX. Of late she has seen any criticism of the SSPX as an attack on her family. Plus, she is now just very confused so she clings to what she knows. What a coward I am…I must haul out that book.

The one criticism I have the book as a resource is that it is fairly “shallow” and doesn’t engage on a deep, detailed, intellectual level with SSPX ideology, or brushes over points that need detailed treatment, IMO. There seemed to me a lot of simple appeals to obedience which ought to be enough, but don’t really tackle, using theology, etc, criticisms by the SSPX of postconciliar practice and policy. This SSPX book covers a lot of ground and needs answering on its own terms (as that would put paid to similar screeds).

Just my opinion! Thanks again and God bless!
 
Denise1957 said:
Though I have not read the book myself, you might consider purchasing a book called, “More Catholic Than the Pope,” by Patrick Madrid and Pete Vere.
Vere has a doctorate in canon law, and is a former adherent of the SSPX. I’ve read Vere’s analysis of the SSPX situation elsewhere, and have found it to be reasonable.

Here’s an article which reviews the book, which may help you in your situation with your wife.

ad2000.com.au/articles/2005/aug2005p18_2038.html

This book is available from Amazon for about $10.00.
Click to expand...
This seems like a really good book. I had been thinking about purchasing it. It’s good to have a balanced view of things.

Edited: Thanks for the review:
mitch2007 said:
Thanks Denise. In fact, I already have that book and was thinking about using it. I feel ashamed to say this, but I bought it online without my wife knowing. She is very sensitive of late to any criticism of the SSPX…though she is happy to attend non-SSPX TLMs (or at least is prepared to attend), he family are very “anti” and totally and exclusively SSPX. Of late she has seen any criticism of the SSPX as an attack on her family. Plus, she is now just very confused so she clings to what she knows. What a coward I am…I must haul out that book.

The one criticism I have the book as a resource is that it is fairly “shallow” and doesn’t engage on a deep, detailed, intellectual level with SSPX ideology, or brushes over points that need detailed treatment, IMO. There seemed to me a lot of simple appeals to obedience which ought to be enough, but don’t really tackle, using theology, etc, criticisms by the SSPX of postconciliar practice and policy. This SSPX book covers a lot of ground and needs answering on its own terms (as that would put paid to similar screeds).
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Hi Mitch,

It sounds to me like you agree with the “accusations” when you give your opinions above about the things that make the Society conclude that there is a crisis in the Church. If you do not subjectively believe there is a crisis, then you CAN’T go to a Society priest for the Sacraments because you have to doubt that he lacks jurisdiction. I tell you this as one with very strong ties to the Society. That is all you need personally.

As a husband and perhaps father, it is you who are responsible for the souls of your family. As a loving husband, you need to be tender and considerate of your wife’s convictions as she does of yours. It seems like it would be terrible for you to disagree on where to take your family to Mass. My wife tends also to be more “hardline”, if you will, than I am. I am nowhere it, but if I came to the point where I doubted that there was a crisis in the Church, I think I could share my concerns and convince her to at least come with me to the indult or other avaliable TLM on Sundays as a family.

I always have sympathy for those who struggle with the question of the crisis in the Church. You will have people here who pooh pooh the idea as though it is absurd. You only have to obey legitimate living authority according to them. People who believe there is a serious crisis will show videos of truly hideous examples of liturguies that are licit which are allowed by the Church. You only have to obey legitimate historical authority according to them. Neither extreme seems to me to appreciate the agonizing situation in which some Catholics, loving eternal Rome, and believing in contemporary Rome as true successor, find themsleves.

Archbishop Lefebvre agonized over each step that he eventually took which led to sanctions. He subjectively believed that he could not obey contemporary Rome without disobeying eternal Rome. May God have mercy if he was in error, but I truly believe he would have rejoiced to have finally understood he was wrong. He wasn’t infallible and never claimed to be. If Abp. Lefebvre could have struggled with his decisions, it seems to me like you could reason with your wife regarding how you are struggling.

Lovingly tell your good wife how torn you are. Trust her who God gave you as a helpmeet. We are all on journeys. The time may come when I find myself unable to believe that the crisis rises to a point where suspended priests any longer have jurisdiction. I am Catholic first. Maybe the time will come when I am in a diocesan parish and you are back with the SSPX. Who knows? Hopefully, your wife is Catholic first and will be understanding of your personal crisis. Emphasize that you sympathize with her concerns and how you both share most of the same convictions. I do not know if all of them would (I hope so), but I think many or most SSPX priests would tell your wife to go with you to an indult or other Traditional Mass that permits you to worship with a clear conscience.

I disapprove of your title a little. As a faithful parishioner at a Society parish, I love Holy Mother Church. I can only defend her. It would have to be an enemy, not “the Church” that could have caused any continuing crisis such as I could believe in. I have filial affection for our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI. Our parish priest has made overtures to our local bishop because the bishop is our pastor too. Even if we are compelled by conviction to continue in opposition to his policies, or the pope’s public statements, we recognize their authority and appeal to them as their children. Any accusations against the Church of which I would approve never threaten her continuing visible integrity as the One, True, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of the faithful until Christ comes again.

PP
 
mitch2007 said:
Thanks Denise. In fact, I already have that book and was thinking about using it. I feel ashamed to say this, but I bought it online without my wife knowing. She is very sensitive of late to any criticism of the SSPX…though she is happy to attend non-SSPX TLMs (or at least is prepared to attend), he family are very “anti” and totally and exclusively SSPX. Of late she has seen any criticism of the SSPX as an attack on her family. Plus, she is now just very confused so she clings to what she knows. What a coward I am…I must haul out that book.

The one criticism I have the book as a resource is that it is fairly “shallow” and doesn’t engage on a deep, detailed, intellectual level with SSPX ideology, or brushes over points that need detailed treatment, IMO. There seemed to me a lot of simple appeals to obedience which ought to be enough, but don’t really tackle, using theology, etc, criticisms by the SSPX of postconciliar practice and policy. This SSPX book covers a lot of ground and needs answering on its own terms (as that would put paid to similar screeds).

Just my opinion! Thanks again and God bless!
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It sounds like the book doesn’t really offer a good rebuttal of the claims of the SSPX book.
I sympathize with your situation. Not sure what helpful advice I can offer, except to say that what finally convinced me to leave the SSPX was the realization that the SSPX isn’t anywhere near as perfect as I had thought it was, and also that the Church isn’t anywhere near as bad as I had been led to believe. It took awhile to realize this, though. It helped that I began to attend OF Masses, to see for myself that they are not sacriligious, as I had been told that they were.

Try to be patient with your wife, and charitable, too, when you approach her on this issue. Prayer and sacrifice, too! 🙂
 
Planty Pall,

Thank you so much for your kind and helpful post; I appreciate it.

I am sorry you disapprove of the title of my thread - perhaps it is unfair.

I, too, attend the SSPX. To be honest, I admit to being very torn. I do fully respect your positin and am sympathetic to the SSPX. However, my story and journey in which I have become estranged from the SSPX is a long one which I posted in another thread (titled Any SSPX “converts” to Rome).

My wife does in fact attend “indult” Masses - as in TLM’s offered by non-SSPX priests in good standing with the diocese - when these are available. They are VERY low key. Semi-private really, and time to co-incide with Mass-less Sundays at our SSPX chapel. But the SSPX priests are anti people going, saying we must rather say rosary at the chapel than go to a TLM said by a priest who also says the Novus Ordo. Some listen to the SSPX on this, others (like us) don’t.

The book in discussion I received today and prompted me to post here. It seems very anti all other Catholics and paints a very, very bad picture of recent Popes - basically giving the impression that the SSPX is all that’s left of the church. It seems to convey the most hardline and sectarian wing of the SSPX. I know not all SSPX followers adhere to this line.

As for whether I am justified in my present position to attend the SSPX - to be honest, I do not know. These questions are increasingly dividing my wife and I. Hopefully with God’s help, we will find a solution.

Thanks again for your kind post and your sensible words…God bless.
 
Denise1957 said:
It sounds like the book doesn’t really offer a good rebuttal of the claims of the SSPX book.
I sympathize with your situation. Not sure what helpful advice I can offer, except to say that what finally convinced me to leave the SSPX was the realization that the SSPX isn’t anywhere near as perfect as I had thought it was, and also that the Church isn’t anywhere near as bad as I had been led to believe. It took awhile to realize this, though. It helped that I began to attend OF Masses, to see for myself that they are not sacriligious, as I had been told that they were.

Try to be patient with your wife, and charitable, too, when you approach her on this issue. Prayer and sacrifice, too! 🙂
Click to expand...
Thanks, Denise…you are quite right. In attending OF Masses (as I began to do in 2007 and still do when no TLM, either SSPX or official is available) also began to open my eyes. That and the adamant opposition by SSPX priests to our attending non-SSPX TLM’s when they weren’t in town. Among other things. The hurdle is my wife, who can’t bear to attend the OF and who remains attached to the SSPX. Yes, as you say, prayer and sacrifice is needed!
 
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