Seeking Guidance from Parents of Large Families who Abstain from Sex

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NICKUSAF

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Greetings in Christ!

I am looking for a discussion from parents of large families (yes, I know that is subjective) who have chosen to permanently abstain from sex.

Background: NFP does not work for my wife and I. We have been blessed with kids #4, #5, and now #6 while using NFP. In fact, for #5 and #6 we were being “coached” by the head of the global NFP organization of the method we chose…we got to this level of coach because we believed our local coach must have taught us wrong or left something out which resulted in blessing #4. Our current coach/teacher (the HEAD of the teaching arm of the organization) told us they cannot see how it is possible for us to be pregnant again… the data in our chart simply does not support it. They asked if we might have mis-charted, had genital contact, etc… Funny thing is, we were borderline abstinent after #5 because we were deathly afraid of #6. Well, here we are; NFP is no longer an option. So, it seems the only Church sanctioned option left to us is to totally abstain.

With that in mind, we are angry, scared, frustrated, and angry (did I already say that?) We are praying, and praying, and researching, and reading, and praying some more. What we have come up with through our prayer and research are several truths as revealed to our hearts:

Truth #1) We cannot have any more children after this. Although, we are still young mid-late 30’s, we are at our physical and mental end. Our current five kids are already having to deal with divided attention, less focus on homework, less one-on-one time with mommy and daddy, and #6 will only increase the strain. Financially, we will figure it out, we always have…physically, hormonally, and mentally, we are exhausted and stressed.

Truth #2) NFP is NOT an option any more. We cannot “try” a different method. Child #7 is not in Gods plan for us, we truly believe He has led our hearts to understand our limits and be content with being done with six kids, and content in the fact we are doing our part to bring life into the world, and He wants us to focus on raising productive and faithful Catholics. To meet that, we need to stop having more kids. Experimenting with another NFP method is not an option.

Truth #3) Abstaining for the next 25 to 30 years is a very long time. St. Paul was very clear in his fist letter to the Corinthians (verse 7); the unitive aspect of sex in a marriage is important. Sin can easily wedge itself into a marriage where physical intimacy has been removed…maybe not at first, but, over time it is a valid concern… as written by St. Paul: "Do not refuse one another except perhaps by agreement for a season, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, lest Satan tempt you through lack of self-control." 25-30 years is a heck of a lot longer than a season…

What I am interested in is a discussion with other people in a similar situation. How have you overcome the challenges of permanent abstinence in your marriage? Do you feel you are still raising children in a loving household complete with the proper example of intimacy expected from parents? Do you think your children are affected, or have their opinions on what a marriage truly is supposed to be like been affected by having parents who are no longer physically intimate? How has this affected your relationship with your spouse? After 20+ years of abstaining, were you/do you think you can/do engage in intimate relationships again, or has your entire relationship changed so much that even when capable after menopause, physical intimacy is just no longer an option? Do you think permanent abstinence is healthy?

Thanks in advance for an open an honest discussion!!
 
NICKUSAF said:
Greetings in Christ!

I am looking for a discussion from parents of large families (yes, I know that is subjective) who have chosen to permanently abstain from sex.

Background: NFP does not work for my wife and I. We have been blessed with kids #4, #5, and now #6 while using NFP. In fact, for #5 and #6 we were being “coached” by the head of the global NFP organization of the method we chose…we got to this level of coach because we believed our local coach must have taught us wrong or left something out which resulted in blessing #4. Our current coach/teacher (the HEAD of the teaching arm of the organization) told us they cannot see how it is possible for us to be pregnant again… the data in our chart simply does not support it. They asked if we might have mis-charted, had genital contact, etc… Funny thing is, we were borderline abstinent after #5 because we were deathly afraid of #6. Well, here we are; NFP is no longer an option. So, it seems the only Church sanctioned option left to us is to totally abstain.

With that in mind, we are angry, scared, frustrated, and angry (did I already say that?) We are praying, and praying, and researching, and reading, and praying some more. What we have come up with through our prayer and research are several truths as revealed to our hearts:

Truth #1) We cannot have any more children after this. Although, we are still young mid-late 30’s, we are at our physical and mental end. Our current five kids are already having to deal with divided attention, less focus on homework, less one-on-one time with mommy and daddy, and #6 will only increase the strain. Financially, we will figure it out, we always have…physically, hormonally, and mentally, we are exhausted and stressed.

Truth #2) NFP is NOT an option any more. We cannot “try” a different method. Child #7 is not in Gods plan for us, we truly believe He has led our hearts to understand our limits and be content with being done with six kids, and content in the fact we are doing our part to bring life into the world, and He wants us to focus on raising productive and faithful Catholics. To meet that, we need to stop having more kids. Experimenting with another NFP method is not an option.

Truth #3) Abstaining for the next 25 to 30 years is a very long time. St. Paul was very clear in his fist letter to the Corinthians (verse 7); the unitive aspect of sex in a marriage is important. Sin can easily wedge itself into a marriage where physical intimacy has been removed…maybe not at first, but, over time it is a valid concern… as written by St. Paul: "Do not refuse one another except perhaps by agreement for a season, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, lest Satan tempt you through lack of self-control." 25-30 years is a heck of a lot longer than a season…

What I am interested in is a discussion with other people in a similar situation. How have you overcome the challenges of permanent abstinence in your marriage? Do you feel you are still raising children in a loving household complete with the proper example of intimacy expected from parents? Do you think your children are affected, or have their opinions on what a marriage truly is supposed to be like been affected by having parents who are no longer physically intimate? How has this affected your relationship with your spouse? After 20+ years of abstaining, were you/do you think you can/do engage in intimate relationships again, or has your entire relationship changed so much that even when capable after menopause, physical intimacy is just no longer an option? Do you think permanent abstinence is healthy?

Thanks in advance for an open an honest discussion!!
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If you are mid-late 30s, why would 25-30 years of abstinence be necessary?
 
We are basing our assumption on the age my wife’s female family members have typically entered/completed menopause.
 
The gamut from mid-to late 50’s up to early 60’s (complete not start). But, does this affect my question? Is 10-15 years somehow different?
 
NICKUSAF said:
The gamut from mid-to late 50’s up to early 60’s (complete not start). But, does this affect my question? Is 10-15 years somehow different?
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That’s not my understanding of how fertility and menopause works. But regaurdless,
What about relations during menstration?
 
Not sure what method OP uses, but I know that for us, (Creighton method users), the menstrual period is considered fertile time. Also, the OP seems to have used “safe” days before and ended up pregnant.
 
truetofaith said:
Abstinence always works.
Click to expand...
Works for what? Just to prevent life? What about the other aspects of existing life? Enriching love, family affection, avoidance of sin, setting a healthy example of happy, united, loving parents for children to follow… we cannot ignore St. Paul letter to the Corinthians. He was very clear about married life and coming together to avoid the temptations Satan puts in front of us. Should be discount his wise words?

Now, my entire post is ABOUT abstinence… my question (I am the OP) is not about NFP. It is about abstinence. Please focus on my question.
 
I’ll admit I’m currious why the cycles cannot be predicted. Even if you could come up with 3 safe days somehow.
 
NICKUSAF said:
Greetings in Christ!

I am looking for a discussion from parents of large families (yes, I know that is subjective) who have chosen to permanently abstain from sex.

Background: NFP does not work for my wife and I. We have been blessed with kids #4, #5, and now #6 while using NFP. In fact, for #5 and #6 we were being “coached” by the head of the global NFP organization of the method we chose…we got to this level of coach because we believed our local coach must have taught us wrong or left something out which resulted in blessing #4. Our current coach/teacher (the HEAD of the teaching arm of the organization) told us they cannot see how it is possible for us to be pregnant again… the data in our chart simply does not support it. They asked if we might have mis-charted, had genital contact, etc… Funny thing is, we were borderline abstinent after #5 because we were deathly afraid of #6. Well, here we are; NFP is no longer an option. So, it seems the only Church sanctioned option left to us is to totally abstain.

With that in mind, we are angry, scared, frustrated, and angry (did I already say that?) We are praying, and praying, and researching, and reading, and praying some more. What we have come up with through our prayer and research are several truths as revealed to our hearts:

Truth #1) We cannot have any more children after this. Although, we are still young mid-late 30’s, we are at our physical and mental end. Our current five kids are already having to deal with divided attention, less focus on homework, less one-on-one time with mommy and daddy, and #6 will only increase the strain. Financially, we will figure it out, we always have…physically, hormonally, and mentally, we are exhausted and stressed.

Truth #2) NFP is NOT an option any more. We cannot “try” a different method. Child #7 is not in Gods plan for us, we truly believe He has led our hearts to understand our limits and be content with being done with six kids, and content in the fact we are doing our part to bring life into the world, and He wants us to focus on raising productive and faithful Catholics. To meet that, we need to stop having more kids. Experimenting with another NFP method is not an option.

Truth #3) Abstaining for the next 25 to 30 years is a very long time. St. Paul was very clear in his fist letter to the Corinthians (verse 7); the unitive aspect of sex in a marriage is important. Sin can easily wedge itself into a marriage where physical intimacy has been removed…maybe not at first, but, over time it is a valid concern… as written by St. Paul: "Do not refuse one another except perhaps by agreement for a season, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, lest Satan tempt you through lack of self-control." 25-30 years is a heck of a lot longer than a season…

What I am interested in is a discussion with other people in a similar situation. How have you overcome the challenges of permanent abstinence in your marriage? Do you feel you are still raising children in a loving household complete with the proper example of intimacy expected from parents? Do you think your children are affected, or have their opinions on what a marriage truly is supposed to be like been affected by having parents who are no longer physically intimate? How has this affected your relationship with your spouse? After 20+ years of abstaining, were you/do you think you can/do engage in intimate relationships again, or has your entire relationship changed so much that even when capable after menopause, physical intimacy is just no longer an option? Do you think permanent abstinence is healthy?

Thanks in advance for an open an honest discussion!!
Click to expand...
I will say op, I get the frustration. When we used nfp it was tough on our marriage, our spirits, our family.
We felt at the end of our rope many times. Our answer was to abandon nfp.
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
That’s not my understanding of how fertility and menopause works. But regaurdless,
What about relations during menstration?
Click to expand...
Whats not to understand? The average age in America for menopause is between 48 and 55. Menopause is defined as 12 months without a period. My wife family tends to be on the high-side. My wife is heading into her mid-30’s. I am in my late thirties. So, she could follow the American average, and be through menopause in 15 years, or follow her family and go as late as 30 years. I assume she will be somewhere in the middle… in either case, even 15 years is a long time to remove physical intimacy from a marriage.
 
When I had 4 kids, I was asking a man who had 10 how he did it, and that I don’t know if I can do more. He put his hand on my shoulder, looked me in the eye and said ‘Mike, you’re going to have 10 kids’.

As time has gone by, I’ve appreciated that moment more and more. Be not afraid.

We work well, have 7, had 8 pregnancies. I have a sister who can’t have kids, so that helps us appreciate.

My mom teaches NFP, the billings method.

Has been teaching it for 30+ years.

With the first couple kids, you are learning how well you work.

We knew after a few kids that with our history, action would equal life on x day per her cycle.

We laugh because people see a lot of kids and think there is a lot of action going on. Oh we’ve had the comments, heard it all. Me more than her I’m sure.

Where, as you know, when you work well, amount of action is the opposite of what it looks.

The concern about splitting time is a myth, people like to hang with their own, including kids.

Kids look to play with other kids before they look for alone time with mom or dad. It doesn’t take long either.

I hope you are appreciative. Sounds like you are building a nice family.

You and we are about the same age.

I don’t think it’s logical to abstain for thirty years or throw out other methods because what you are using is not working.

We don’t tell God his plans, He gives us the strength to fulfill them.

Take care,

Mike
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
I’ll admit I’m currious why the cycles cannot be predicted. Even if you could come up with 3 safe days somehow.
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I wish I knew. My wife wishes she knew. Our coach wishes she knew too.

Bottom line, we were using safe days. Heck, we were only intimate 1, maybe 2 days in a good month… we were scared to death of getting pregnant again. Here we are… gifted by God for the sixth time trying to use NFP to control our own lives.

I get it, we all need to be like Mary and just say His will be done.

The Church also realizes families need a method to help regulate within the bounds of responsible parenthood. I think one thing most Catholics tend to overlook when throwing around NFP as an acceptable form of birth control is that even Humanae Vitae states, NFP is only to be used when a couple “for serious reasons and with due respect to moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time.” Of course, this is a subjective phrase leaving it up to individuals to decide what is serious and what is not.

So, here we are. NFP doesn’t work and St Paul says abstinence should only be for a season to help prevent sin, and focus prayer. Whats that leave? It is easy to say abstinence is the answer (thats what we came up with) but, as with everything revealed through scripture, there are multiple layers… am I missing something in Corinthians?

I look at my kids and appreciate each one for the gift they are. I can’t imagine having stopped at four, and not be able to enjoy my little one, or the next. BUT, it isn’t about being able to handle more or afford more. Each pregnancy has gotten progressively harder for my wife, both mentally and physically. I cannot put her through any more. It isn’t fair, and it isn’t safe. Are these feelings, developed after lots and lots of prayer to be considered “serious” enough?

Again, I am hoping someone who has been a spouse in a happy, healthy abstinence from sex marriage AND is the parent of multiple kids can chime in and tell me what it was like. What challenges they had. What can they suggest. How they failed…did it last. Marriage is hard as it is, the unitive aspect of intimacy is a foundational part of our make-up… a true gift from our creator.
 
NICKUSAF said:
I wish I knew. My wife wishes she knew. Our coach wishes she knew too.

Bottom line, we were using safe days. Heck, we were only intimate 1, maybe 2 days in a good month… we were scared to death of getting pregnant again. Here we are… gifted by God for the sixth time trying to use NFP to control our own lives.

I get it, we all need to be like Mary and just say His will be done.

The Church also realizes families need a method to help regulate within the bounds of responsible parenthood. I think one thing most Catholics tend to overlook when throwing around NFP as an acceptable form of birth control is that even Humanae Vitae states, NFP is only to be used when a couple “for serious reasons and with due respect to moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time.” Of course, this is a subjective phrase leaving it up to individuals to decide what is serious and what is not.

So, here we are. NFP doesn’t work and St Paul says abstinence should only be for a season to help prevent sin, and focus prayer. Whats that leave? It is easy to say abstinence is the answer (thats what we came up with) but, as with everything revealed through scripture, there are multiple layers… am I missing something in Corinthians?

I look at my kids and appreciate each one for the gift they are. I can’t imagine having stopped at four, and not be able to enjoy my little one, or the next. BUT, it isn’t about being able to handle more or afford more. Each pregnancy has gotten progressively harder for my wife, both mentally and physically. I cannot put her through any more. It isn’t fair, and it isn’t safe. Are these feelings, developed after lots and lots of prayer to be considered “serious” enough?

Again, I am hoping someone who has been a spouse in a happy, healthy abstinence from sex marriage AND is the parent of multiple kids can chime in and tell me what it was like. What challenges they had. What can they suggest. How they failed…did it last. Marriage is hard as it is, the unitive aspect of intimacy is a foundational part of our make-up… a true gift from our creator.
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So we have number. six on the way. It’s high risk. My wife had a PE after the last one and a seperate blood disorder has taxed her body as far as it can go. There is no answer that works for every couple.
For us nfp is not an option, neither is abstinence, and ABC is out as well. So our lives are a day to day decision. Prayer and trust have helped. Along with not swallowing whatever nfp experts try to sell us. Some might even try to put the blame on you. And some doctors try to push equally silly solutions. Our lives are crazy, but at least our marriage is good.
I don’t have an answer to your dilemma except to say that decisions made in frustration are rarely the correct ones. I’ll say a prayer for you.
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
So we have number. six on the way. It’s high risk. My wife had a PE after the last one and a seperate blood disorder has taxed her body as far as it can go. There is no answer that works for every couple.
For us nfp is not an option, neither is abstinence, and ABC is out as well. So our lives are a day to day decision. Prayer and trust have helped. Along with not swallowing whatever nfp experts try to sell us. Some might even try to put the blame on you. And some doctors try to push equally silly solutions. Our lives are crazy, but at least our marriage is good.
I don’t have an answer to your dilemma except to say that decisions made in frustration are rarely the correct ones. I’ll say a prayer for you.
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Thank you for your honesty and prayers. Good luck to you and your wife, and I will say a prayer for you and your family as well.
 
people confuse the teaching about being open to life all the time.

It is not a sin to mutually decide to not have sex - ever.

The key is that when action takes place, the two should always be open to life.

Open to life does not mean always trying to make life.

It simply boils down to no contraception or onanism.

I suppose we should be sure to dismiss the silly term ‘contraceptive mentality’ before it rears it’s illogical face.
 
I don’t have an answer for you, I will say this, prayer is your best bet.

Say the rosary, ask God for help, and also I strongly suggest you say a Novena to St. Joseph for help.

St. Joseph, who was given a situation that probably was not what he expected, but put all his faith in God. St. Joseph who raised Jesus, who was responsible for Jesus, who had the task of teaching Jesus, who had to be able to correct Jesus. What an awesome, amazing and completely humbling experience.

If there is anyone who can help you it is St. Joseph and the Blessed Mother Mary. Pray to them, ask their intercession, and seriously say the Novena to St. Joseph!!!
 
ffg said:
people confuse the teaching about being open to life all the time.

It is not a sin to mutually decide to not have sex - ever.

The key is that when action takes place, the two should always be open to life.

Open to life does not mean always trying to make life.

It simply boils down to no contraception or onanism.

I suppose we should be sure to dismissl the silly term ‘contraceptive mentality’ before it rears it’s illogicalentalir captive face.]m

I think you can relax. I doubt contraceptive mentality needs to be discussed here. Unless you are trying to bring it up.
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