Seeking Guidance from Parents of Large Families who Abstain from Sex

[Rau]

The way I see it, if a priest loses faith and provides communion, the people receiving communion are still receiving the Body of Christ. In a similar manner, if a priest provides the faithful guidance based on the situation at hand, I believe our most loving and merciful God will have pitty on all involved. Unless you can prove otherwise, no need to reply.

I don’t follow the suggested analogy. I thought you were going to say that if a wayward priest can successfully preside at the consecration, then the counsel of such a priest becomes valid even when it objectively wrong. I think we all agree that would be wrong.

What matters for the couple is what they “know” in their hearts.

I am not sure what you mean by “have pity on all”. If the priest misrepresents his advice as true to catholic faith, then he deserves punishment. If the couple knew no better and believed the priest advised faithfully, then it could be they do no wrong in following his advice (even if objectively wrong).

And your very last sentence seems out of place on a discussion board.

 

[truetofaith]

Priests have no such capacity or faculty. They have no power to “dispense” a person from the moral law. A priest pretending to do so would have done something quite wrong:

You say priests have no power to “dispense a person from the moral law.”

Married Catholics using birth control is against a church law not the moral law, so a priest may be able to dispense it without calling the Pope.

 

[pensmama87]

You say priests have no power to “dispense a person from the moral law.”

Married Catholics using birth control is against a church law not the moral law, so a priest may be able to dispense it without calling the Pope.

This is false.

Contraception is intrinsically wrong.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

You say priests have no power to “dispense a person from the moral law.”

Married Catholics using birth control is against a church law not the moral law, so a priest may be able to dispense it without calling the Pope.

I don’t know where you are getting your theology from but it’s alarmingly wrong. And insinuating that one can be excused from an intrinsic evil is not only false but it’s dangerous to your soul and those who might follow what you write.
A priest cannot “dispense” from abc any more than he can dispense you to marry a same sex partner. And thinking that shows a profound deficiency in the understanding of the issue and moral law itself.

Prohibition against artificial birth control is binding on any human. Catholic or not.
But going directly against church teaching and moral law because a priest said so is not a get out of jail free card, in fact it puts more people in danger of eternal jail.
Are you willing to take responsibility for someone using birth control? Will you take thier place at judgement?

 

[Rau]

You say priests have no power to “dispense a person from the moral law.”

Married Catholics using birth control is against a church law not the moral law, so a priest may be able to dispense it without calling the Pope.

No, that would be wrong. Church laws are things like attending mass on days of obligation. That’s “made up” if you will by the Church. Could be changed next week.

 

[oldgraymare2]

I know people who said the priest gave them a dispensation to use artificial birth control when they said in Confession they could no longer afford more kids or it was harmful to the wife’s health!

Yes, this can happen, especially when it concerns serious health issues.

I speak from my own experience, when I found my own health to be in a very serious predicament years ago. I went to talk to our pastor at the time.

Please excuse me for saying this and I don’t mean to offend anyone posting on this particular thread, but I don’t think that people should pass any judgment on anyone in these particular circumstances when they may not know what the couple/spouses may be experiencing, whether it is judgment towards the priest giving advice, or the couple seeking advice.

This is just how I feel, having gone through something like this personally.

 

[truetofaith]

I don’t know where you are getting your theology from but it’s alarmingly wrong. And insinuating that one can be excused from an intrinsic evil is not only false but it’s dangerous to your soul and those who might follow what you write.
A priest cannot “dispense” from abc any more than he can dispense you to marry a same sex partner. And thinking that shows a profound deficiency in the understanding of the issue and moral law itself.

Prohibition against artificial birth control is binding on any human. Catholic or not.
But going directly against church teaching and moral law because a priest said so is not a get out of jail free card, in fact it puts more people in danger of eternal jail.
Are you willing to take responsibility for someone using birth control? Will you take thier place at judgement?

I’ll look this up in the Catholic Encyclopedia…because I thought Birth Control was a Church rule and not an infallible decree from the Pope.

P.S. we’re discussing this Topic so no one should do what I say without consulting their priest.

 

[Rau]

I’ll look this up in the Catholic Encyclopedia…because I thought Birth Control was a Church rule and not an infallible decree from the Pope.

If memory serves, there are VERY few infallible papal decrees. Why are they different from “rules (by which I assume you mean “teachings”) of the Church”? Please explain the difference as you see it?

And also - could you explain your understanding of the authority of a priest to “dispense rules”. What are the sorts of things, taught by the Church, that you understand a priest may dispense for an individual?

 

[ToeInTheWater]

The way I see it, if a priest loses faith and provides communion, the people receiving communion are still receiving the Body of Christ. In a similar manner, if a priest provides the faithful guidance based on the situation at hand, I believe our most loving and merciful God will have pitty on all involved. Unless you can prove otherwise, no need to reply.

If someone sincerely accepts whatever the priest tells them even if the priest is wrong, then they certainly may lack sufficient knowledge to be responsible for mortal sin.

However, someone deliberately shopping for a priest to give them permission to use ABC would not have that excuse. And that’s the “solution” proposed by truetofaith, that Hoosier Daddy stated his disagreement with.

 

[truetofaith]

I looked up Birth Control in my Catholic Encyclopedia & yes it says it is intrinsically evil & cannot be used.
Natural Family Planning or Rhythm Method can be used if there is danger to the wife’s health, or a baby may be stillborn or if grave economic conditions would result. I should not be continued once these conditions no longer exist.

Now, the OP is using NFP without success, so what can be done? Abstinence

 

[Rau]

…Now, the OP is using NFP without success, so what can be done? Abstinence

If the perceived negative consequences of a pregnancy are sufficiently great, it would seem that that is where one ends up.

I presume medical science has no practical means to measure and contrast the actual state of a woman’s cycle versus that implied by the readily observable “symptoms”. Certainly that might assist in determining why, in the OP’s case, the symptoms appear to be an inaccurate gauge of the state of the cycle.

 

[pensmama87]

If the perceived negative consequences of a pregnancy are sufficiently great, it would seem that that is where one ends up.

I presume medical science has no practical means to measure and contrast the actual state of a woman’s cycle versus that implied by the readily observable “symptoms”. Certainly that might assist in determining why, in the OP’s case, the symptoms appear to be an inaccurate gauge of the state of the cycle.

There may be means, but not necessarily practical or inexpensive ones. The Marquette method tests hormone levels, but requires a monitor and testing strips. There are also other devices available but they can be very expensive. Ovulation can also be observed by ultrasound.

There are lots of situations that can obscure relatively clear fertility signals. Some of them have simple fixes and some don’t. But yes, generally, the more serious the need to avoid, the more abstinence there is - because if you’re not certain you’re infertile, you assume fertility.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I looked up Birth Control in my Catholic Encyclopedia & yes it says it is intrinsically evil & cannot be used.
Natural Family Planning or Rhythm Method can be used if there is danger to the wife’s health, or a baby may be stillborn or if grave economic conditions would result. I should not be continued once these conditions no longer exist.

Now, the OP is using NFP without success, so what can be done? Abstinence

While I am proud of you that you looked up the accurate info. I am still shocked that you thought the way you did about the subject.

As for what can be done, that’s kind of what this thread is about. Welcome!

 

[gracepoole]

There may be means, but not necessarily practical or inexpensive ones. The Marquette method tests hormone levels, but requires a monitor and testing strips. There are also other devices available but they can be very expensive. Ovulation can also be observed by ultrasound.

Has the OP identified the NFP method they’ve been using?

To the OP, I have no solidly Catholic ideas. I can say that my husband and I abstained for over two years at one point and I would never do it again. I certainly wouldn’t advise you to use ABC, as you and your wife are committed to completely following Church teachings. But I can say that I don’t believe the kind of lengthy abstinence that you’re describing is normally positive for a marriage. In fact, I think it’s extremely detrimental. There are exceptions, of course, including situations in which one partner is physically incapable of participating in the marital act. But even when both partners commit to abstinence, in my experience something significant is negatively altered between them. I’m sorry as I know you’re looking for help in being abstinent. Yet my honest response about and experience with abstinence for multiple years just isn’t positive.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Has the OP identified the NFP method they’ve been using?

To the OP, I have no solidly Catholic ideas. I can say that my husband and I abstained for over two years at one point and I would never do it again. I certainly wouldn’t advise you to use ABC, as you and your wife are committed to completely following Church teachings. But I can say that I don’t believe the kind of lengthy abstinence that you’re describing is normally positive for a marriage. In fact, I think it’s extremely detrimental. There are exceptions, of course, including situations in which one partner is physically incapable of participating in the marital act. But even when both partners commit to abstinence, in my experience something significant is negatively altered between them. I’m sorry as I know you’re looking for help in being abstinent. Yet my honest response about and experience with abstinence for multiple years just isn’t positive.

While I think I can read between the lines enough to know what solution you think ABC could play, you refrained from advocating it and the rest of your post is excellent.
I do think abstinence is ok. Maybe even benificial. But if it isn’t, then perhaps something’s not right. Either the employment of abstaience or the selfishness of carnal needs endangering someone else.

 

[john1513]

Back on topic.

Married, early thirties, 3 children, don’t feel like God is calling us to more children at this time, we have abstained from the conjugal act for over a year, however, during this time I have been recovering from pornography addiction. The abstinence has forced both of us to grow and heal in ways we didn’t know possible.

I generally don’t recommend making sweeping decisions about your married sex life 10-20 years in advance. As you know, things change. And God’s plan is much bigger than our plans. Trust in his Church. It sounds painful, but His burden is easy and His yoke is light.

Abstinence has let me see I needed to get serious in several financial areas of our life, which were a cause of stress, which was a cause of disorder in our home, which was a cause of not being ready for the possibility of children.

You are not guaranteed 20 years, 5 years, or even tomorrow. God could take your wife from you today. Enjoy her and your children every minute you have, in ways that are appropriate and beneficial to your state in life. She could suffer an accident tomorrow and not be physically able to have sex for the rest of her life. You wouldn’t leave her. You would stand by your vow, for better or worse. This may seem like worse right now, but better always comes, now or in eternity.

My wife and I are not emotionally able to have sex right now for a variety of reasons and I’m thankful for that. It gives us an opportunity to repair what was broken and strengthen what was weak. Maybe there are areas in your marriage, your life, your wife’s life, that God wants to heal. Trust in Him. I don’t know if my wife and I will ever have sex again but I’m still thankful for what I have been given and I realize that planning out my sex life for the next 20 years is a pointless thought. God is bigger than that. Life is bigger than that. Sex and the possibility of children go together. Don’t try to change that. Try to change yourself in ways that give God glory.

 

[bitterhope]

Back on topic.

Married, early thirties, 3 children, don’t feel like God is calling us to more children at this time, we have abstained from the conjugal act for over a year, however, during this time I have been recovering from pornography addiction. The abstinence has forced both of us to grow and heal in ways we didn’t know possible.

I generally don’t recommend making sweeping decisions about your married sex life 10-20 years in advance. As you know, things change. And God’s plan is much bigger than our plans. Trust in his Church. It sounds painful, but His burden is easy and His yoke is light.

Abstinence has let me see I needed to get serious in several financial areas of our life, which were a cause of stress, which was a cause of disorder in our home, which was a cause of not being ready for the possibility of children.

You are not guaranteed 20 years, 5 years, or even tomorrow. God could take your wife from you today. Enjoy her and your children every minute you have, in ways that are appropriate and beneficial to your state in life. She could suffer an accident tomorrow and not be physically able to have sex for the rest of her life. You wouldn’t leave her. You would stand by your vow, for better or worse. This may seem like worse right now, but better always comes, now or in eternity.

My wife and I are not emotionally able to have sex right now for a variety of reasons and I’m thankful for that. It gives us an opportunity to repair what was broken and strengthen what was weak. Maybe there are areas in your marriage, your life, your wife’s life, that God wants to heal. Trust in Him. I don’t know if my wife and I will ever have sex again but I’m still thankful for what I have been given and I realize that planning out my sex life for the next 20 years is a pointless thought. God is bigger than that. Life is bigger than that. Sex and the possibility of children go together. Don’t try to change that. Try to change yourself in ways that give God glory.

There is so much truth in your post. Praying for your family to continue to grow in holiness together and to stay true to the path God is laying down in front of you. May God bless you all immensely.

 

[RomanoAmerio]

I believe Saint Joseph and Saint Maria Goretti’s intercessions are extremely helpful to those who struggle with chastity, even in the marital context.

Sometimes simple devotions are far greater channels of grace than casuistic theological discussions.

 

[daniden]

My husband and I have used NFP for over 25 years. We have 6 children–all but 1 was “planned”…at least, by us (although it wasn’t a total shock as we weren’t as careful as we should’ve been). I don’t have any advice as far remaining abstinent, but I do wonder if you might have sperm that live a long time and/or your wife has very fertile mucous. Both could contribute to your wife becoming pregnant during more infertile times. It’s not unheard of (but probably a little more rare) for sperm to live up to 5-7 days. All it takes is one motile sperm in the female reproductive tract to fertilize the egg once ovulation happens. The other possibility is maybe your wife is ovulating twice in a cycle. I wish I had some advice. All I can offer is my prayers for you and your wife. That’s a tough situation.