Seeking the True Church

[Stephen168]

3 The true church must have a foundation of apostles and prophets (Eph 2:19-20)

Mormons claim their Apostles hold the key of Priesthood Authority which the Catholic Church lost; demonstrated by the fact there are no more Apostles in Orthodox Christianity. The problem with this claim is Mormon history itself.

In 1830, Joseph Smith started the Latter-Day-Saint Movement by making himself First Elder and Oliver Cowdery ‘Second Elder.’ They both claimed to be given the ‘Keys.’ Smith established the First Presidency, Jesse Gause and Sidney Rigdon, to run the Church in 1832. The First Presidency held the keys to the kingdom of heaven (D&C 81:2) This High Council was the chief judicial and legislative body of the church supervised by the First Presidency. The Presiding High Council was established in 1834 by the First Presidency. In 1835, Smith told Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, and David Whitmer, to select the Twelve Apostles to head the missionary work of the Church. The first apostles were: Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Lyman E. Johnson, David W. Patten, Orson Hyde, William E. M’Lellin, Luke S. Johnson, William Smith, John F. Boynton, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, Thomas B. Marsh.

By the end of 1835, the Church was run by the Elders in the First Presidency who was over the Elders in the Presiding High Council who was over the Quorum of Twelve Apostles. ‘The Keys’ were held by the First Presidency who were not ‘Apostles.’
In 1837, the failure of the Kirtland Safety Society, a bank founded by church leaders, led to widespread dissent.
In 1838, Thomas Marsh, Luke Johnson, Lyman Johnson, William M’Lellin, and John Boynton were excommunicated. And John Patten was killed. They were replaced by John Page, and John Taylor leaving the church with eight apostles.
In 1839 Wilford Woodruff, and George Smith were added to the Quorum of Twelve Apostles to make the total number ten.
In 1840, Willard Richards made the number of apostles eleven.
In 1841, Lyman Wight was added to restored the number of apostles to twelve.
In 1842 Orson Pratt was excommunicated and replaced by Amasa Lyman.

At the time of Joseph Smith’s death the First Presidency included: Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, and Sidney Rigdon. The head of the Presiding High Council was William Marks. The head of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles was Brigham Young. After the Smith’s were killed, only Sidney Rigdon remained in the First Presidency.

As the member of the First Presidency (holder of the keys) Rigdon claimed to be guardian of the church and Apostle John Page and Elder William Marks supported him in that claim.
Brigham Young as the head Apostle claimed Joseph Smith was an Apostle and held the keys. Because Young was the head Apostle he claimed to replace Smith as the holder of the keys. This was the first time any Mormon thought of an Apostle as being a key holder.
The Church membership voted for Young, as leader of the third level church council, to lead the church; and raise the Quorum of Twelve Apostles over the Presiding High Council while taking over the First Presidency.

To summarize: Five years after the start of the Mormon Church, Smith invented the position of Apostle. The Quorum of Twelve Apostles ran the missionary effort of the church, not the whole church. The Apostles did not hold ‘the keys’ during Smith’s lifetime. The association of ‘keys’ with ‘apostles’ was an invention by Brigham Young to get control of the Church.

 

[RebeccaJ]

What scripture exists that the church organized by Jesus Christ was to be named the Catholic church???

Four marks of the true church:

The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13)
The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8)
The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10)
The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20)
**
Regarding the catholicity of the Catholic church:**

Jesus’ Church is called catholic (“universal” in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of “all nations” (Matt. 28:19–20).

For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28).

Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to “make disciples of all nations” (Matt. 28:19).

The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, “the Catholic Church,” at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.

Isa 24:5 another scripture Amos 8:11-12 These scriptures from ancient prophets are lying is that what you are saying about the apostasy they foretold would occur and of course did so??

…or these scriptures don’t have anything to do with Mormonism or of a Great Apostasy.

 

[CourtingTex]

Four marks of the true church:

The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13)
The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8)
The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10)
The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20)
**
Regarding the catholicity of the Catholic church:**

Jesus’ Church is called catholic (“universal” in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of “all nations” (Matt. 28:19–20).

For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28).

Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to “make disciples of all nations” (Matt. 28:19).

The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, “the Catholic Church,” at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.

…or these scriptures don’t have anything to do with Mormonism or of a Great Apostasy.

The King James version of the Bible does not state Catholic at all. Further, every parish I had membership in was named after, according you folks, a saint for St Peter, yet the was organized, and its head was Jesus Christ so despite part of what was said, it is his church. Not Saint so and so ---- the church of Jesus Christ.

The 17 characteristics that noted in earlier post ---- when has the Catholic church done anything for those who are dead, who were baptized in Christ;s church, to have the opportunity for salvation like those those choose such in the living?? My church has 157 temples worldwide, including to be dedicated in Rome performing ordinances for the living and the dead? Is Catholicism doing anything for the dead?

Again this among other reasons is why I left the Catholic church.

 

[pablope]

The Ki

Is Catholicism doing anything for the dead?

Again this among other reasons is why I left the Catholic church.

November 1…All Saints Day…

November 2…All Souls Day…it predates the LDS by 2000 years.

.thoughtco.com/what-is-all-souls-day-542460

newadvent.org/cathen/01315b.htm

The commemoration of all the faithful departed is celebrated by the Church on 2 November, or, if this be a Sunday or a solemnity, on 3 November. The Office of the Dead must be recited by the clergy and all the Masses are to be of Requiem, except one of the current feast, where this is of obligation.

The theological basis for the feast is the doctrine that the souls which, on departing from the body, are not perfectly cleansed from venial sins, or have not fully atoned for past transgressions, are debarred from the Beatific Vision, and that the faithful on earth can help them by prayers, almsdeeds and especially by the sacrifice of the Mass. (See PURGATORY.)

In the early days of Christianity the names of the departed brethren were entered in the diptychs. Later, in the sixth century, it was customary in Benedictine monasteries to hold a commemoration of the deceased members at Whitsuntide. In Spain there was such a day on Saturday before Sexagesima or before Pentecost, at the time of St. Isidore (d. 636). In Germany there existed (according to the testimony of Widukind, Abbot of Corvey, c. 980) a time-honoured ceremony of praying to the dead on 1 October. This was accepted and sanctified by the Church. St. Odilo of Cluny (d. 1048) ordered the commemoration of all the faithful departed to be held annually in the monasteries of his congregation. Thence it spread among the other congregations of the Benedictines and among the Carthusians.

 

[pablope]

The King James version of the Bible does not state Catholic at all.

Do you even realize, that the original King James Version, was based on the Latin Vulgate of St. Jerome, completed around AD 390 or so? You are using a Bible we have used since AD400…

 

[CourtingTex]

November 1…All Saints Day…

November 2…All Souls Day…it predates the LDS by 2000 years.

.thoughtco.com/what-is-all-souls-day-542460

newadvent.org/cathen/01315b.htm

The commemoration of all the faithful departed is celebrated by the Church on 2 November, or, if this be a Sunday or a solemnity, on 3 November. The Office of the Dead must be recited by the clergy and all the Masses are to be of Requiem, except one of the current feast, where this is of obligation.

The theological basis for the feast is the doctrine that the souls which, on departing from the body, are not perfectly cleansed from venial sins, or have not fully atoned for past transgressions, are debarred from the Beatific Vision, and that the faithful on earth can help them by prayers, almsdeeds and especially by the sacrifice of the Mass. (See PURGATORY.)

In the early days of Christianity the names of the departed brethren were entered in the diptychs. Later, in the sixth century, it was customary in Benedictine monasteries to hold a commemoration of the deceased members at Whitsuntide. In Spain there was such a day on Saturday before Sexagesima or before Pentecost, at the time of St. Isidore (d. 636). In Germany there existed (according to the testimony of Widukind, Abbot of Corvey, c. 980) a time-honoured ceremony of praying to the dead on 1 October. This was accepted and sanctified by the Church. St. Odilo of Cluny (d. 1048) ordered the commemoration of all the faithful departed to be held annually in the monasteries of his congregation. Thence it spread among the other congregations of the Benedictines and among the Carthusians.

So this day is involves research one’s ancestors? I do not think so at all.

 

[CourtingTex]

May I ask you why you participate on a Catholic forum? I seriously would like to know, seeing as how you are a Mormon.

One reason is to read the nonsense about what I believe.

It is unfortunate all the hogwash stated about my church’s doctrine.

Additional, I am not here to defend the church ---- the Lord’s Special Witnesses (The Brethren, the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles) have the chief role of testifying of Jesus Christ as the son of God and providing a defense of the truth recognizing the number of non friendly Mormon sources in the world today.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The King James version of the Bible does not state Catholic at all. Further, every parish I had membership in was named after, according you folks, a saint for St Peter, yet the was organized, and its head was Jesus Christ so despite part of what was said, it is his church. Not Saint so and so ---- the church of Jesus Christ.

Catholic means ‘universal’…as already explained in the previous post, it is called the universal church because it is for all people (not just Jews, to be precise).

Naming parishes after Saints is a tradition. Really, think about it, LDS name their congregations and church buildings, such as wards and stakes. Naming a parish is similar. We name parishes after Saints, doing so among other things honors the faithful who are now dead and in practice, calls on the particular Saint to intercede on behalf of the Parish.

Otherwise, you’re stuck on a petty point. Jesus is the center, source and summit of our faith. ‘Catholic’ is a title of the Church, it isn’t a designation of ownership.

The 17 characteristics that noted in earlier post ----

…and the Catholic Church meets all the criteria…

when has the Catholic church done anything for those who are dead, who were baptized in Christ;s church, to have the opportunity for salvation like those those choose such in the living??

We are judged according to THIS life, judging someone for an action or decision in the NEXT life, really, is pointless don’t you think? After we’re dead who wouldn’t say ‘yes’ to something proposed as the absolute truth?

The “opportunity” for salvation is a LDS term, and concept. That being, that only baptized Mormons are saved. This is not a Catholic teaching or idea. We will all be judged for how we followed God according to our understanding. Baptism is for our benefit in this life, it not for God’s benefit.

My church has 157 temples worldwide, including to be dedicated in Rome performing ordinances for the living and the dead? Is Catholicism doing anything for the dead?

We pray for the souls of the departed. Their life is over, they have finished the race. God is their judge at that point. We pray for God’s mercy and we pray for the souls in purgatory, that their journey towards heaven will be swift.

In addition, Masses are said for the dead, at thousands of parishes, worldwide.

Again this among other reasons is why I left the Catholic church.

Yes, I know, I remember hearing stories of converts who were convinced by the points you made. From the POV of a Catholic, there is a reinterpretation of Scripture and non-Christian scripture and teachings added, that must be bought into in order to view the LDS as convincing. The teachings of the Catholic faith must be fought against.

This is in large part why I continue to participate on these forums. To provide a counter voice to the false teachings, by Mormons who come here.

 

[adf417]

I will ask you once again, if somebody leaves your church (LDS) to found another church, does that mean that your church is less of a church or no church at all? Does it mean that the LDS church apostatized?

JMM I really hope this question, among others, gets answered soon. It would shed light on many things coming to light in this thread.

Peace!!!

 

[Horton]

Originally Posted by CourtingTex View Post
The King James version of the Bible does not state Catholic at all.

Do you even realize, that the original King James Version, was based on the Latin Vulgate of St. Jerome, completed around AD 390 or so? You are using a Bible we have used since AD400…

Joseph Smith takes a bible already watered down by Protestants, then misquotes and misinterprets most of it, then claiming it is the true word of God. The LDS today seem to think the Holy Bible came from England in 1611, written in English. Then using that version to claim they are the true faith.

 

[CourtingTex]

Catholic means ‘universal’…as already explained in the previous post, it is called the universal church because it is for all people (not just Jews, to be precise).

Naming parishes after Saints is a tradition. Really, think about it, LDS name their congregations and church buildings, such as wards and stakes. Naming a parish is similar. We name parishes after Saints, doing so among other things honors the faithful who are now dead and in practice, calls on the particular Saint to intercede on behalf of the Parish.

Otherwise, you’re stuck on a petty point. Jesus is the center, source and summit of our faith. ‘Catholic’ is a title of the Church, it isn’t a designation of ownership.

…and the Catholic Church meets all the criteria…

We are judged according to THIS life, judging someone for an action or decision in the NEXT life, really, is pointless don’t you think? After we’re dead who wouldn’t say ‘yes’ to something proposed as the absolute truth?

The “opportunity” for salvation is a LDS term, and concept. That being, that only baptized Mormons are saved. This is not a Catholic teaching or idea. We will all be judged for our understanding of God, and how we followed God according to our understanding. Baptism is for our benefit in this life, it not for God’s benefit.

We pray for the souls of the departed. Their life is over, they have finished the race. God is their judge at that point. We pray for God’s mercy and we pray for the souls in purgatory, that their journey towards heaven will be swift.

In addition, Masses are said for the dead, at thousands of parishes, worldwide.

Yes, I know, I remember hearing stories of converts who were convinced by the points you made. From the POV of a Catholic, there is a reinterpretation of Scripture and non-Christian scripture and teachings added, that must be bought into in order to view the LDS as convincing. The teachings of the Catholic faith must be fought against.

This is in large part why I continue to participate on these forums. To provide a counter voice to the false teachings, by Mormons who come here.

Some of the answers I will question

Missionary work done by who? Prior to looking to Catholicism, no one, I repeat, no one invited me or shared Catholicism with me so I question that notation of it being a missionary.

The questioning of the Bible version validates for me one really ---- did God the Father and his son Jesus Christ approve the Catholic bible any in the Christian world should have only and no other translation? Again my conviction of the Bible to be correct as it is translated correctly ---- I will look up to see the number of translations.

When did the Catholic leadership with a Pope, a number of Cardinals and Bishops become the number 12 ---- referring to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles?? When Christ organized his church, he called (they did not call themselves or something in terms of feelings) 12 apostles?

I can continue with additional questions ----- any answers from the Catholics will not convince me to leave my church and come back to Catholicism.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The King James version of the Bible does not state Catholic at all.

I’m absolutely sure that Matt. 28:19–20 is in the KJV. The “Great Commission” to baptize all nations, is Jesus prophesying. The Catholic Church exists to bring ALL people to Christ, in fulfillment of Christ’s prophecy. The Church’s universal mission is expressed in its name, because it was Jesus who said that His message, the Good News, is for all people. So the Church took on the title for itself of “Catholic”, which has its meaning rooted in scripture and describes in one word, its mission.

 

[CourtingTex]

I’m absolutely sure that Matt. 28:19–20 is in the KJV. The “Great Commission” to baptize all nations, is Jesus prophesying. The Catholic Church exists to bring ALL people to Christ, in fulfillment of Christ’s prophecy. The Church’s universal mission is expressed in its name, because it was Jesus who said that His message, the Good News, is for all people. So the Church took on the title for itself of “Catholic”, which has its meaning rooted in scripture and describes in one word, its mission.

I agree with that partly.

Catholicism does not for me, prove that it is has the 17 characteristics of the true church ,despite some folks trying to convince me otherwise.

Nice try again.

 

[JMM1957]

One reason is to read the nonsense about what I believe.

It is unfortunate all the hogwash stated about my church’s doctrine.

Additional, I am not here to defend the church ---- the Lord’s Special Witnesses (The Brethren, the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles) have the chief role of testifying of Jesus Christ as the son of God and providing a defense of the truth recognizing the number of non friendly Mormon sources in the world today.

You must have a lot of spare time on your hands during the day, that you come on this forum to read all the “nonsense” about your church’s doctrine, as you say, and fail to really be constructive in the discussion, on this thread or the others you take part in. When Catholics question you about the inaccuracies in LDS teachings and doctrine, most of the time you just strike back with “you don’t have to believe it if you don’t want to”, or “the Holy Spirit told me its all true”, and other similar responses. I won’t use the word “hogwash” to describe many of the LDS beliefs, but I will say they are false teachings when you try to prove them using the Word of God, the Bible.

 

[JMM1957]

JMM I really hope this question, among others, gets answered soon. It would shed light on many things coming to light in this thread.

Peace!!!

I don’t dare hold my breath.

 

[JMM1957]

Some of the answers I will question

Missionary work done by who? Prior to looking to Catholicism, no one, I repeat, no one invited me or shared Catholicism with me so I question that notation of it being a missionary.

The questioning of the Bible version validates for me one really ---- did God the Father and his son Jesus Christ approve the Catholic bible any in the Christian world should have only and no other translation? Again my conviction of the Bible to be correct as it is translated correctly ---- I will look up to see the number of translations.

When did the Catholic leadership with a Pope, a number of Cardinals and Bishops become the number 12 ---- referring to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles?? When Christ organized his church, he called (they did not call themselves or something in terms of feelings) 12 apostles?

I can continue with additional questions ----- any answers from the Catholics will not convince me to leave my church and come back to Catholicism.

Again I ask why you even bother.

 

[CourtingTex]

You must have a lot of spare time on your hands during the day, that you come on this forum to read all the “nonsense” about your church’s doctrine, as you say, and fail to really be constructive in the discussion, on this thread or the others you take part in. When Catholics question you about the inaccuracies in LDS teachings and doctrine, most of the time you just strike back with “you don’t have to believe it if you don’t want to”, or “the Holy Spirit told me its all true”, and other similar responses. I won’t use the word “hogwash” to describe many of the LDS beliefs, but I will say they are false teachings when you try to prove them using the Word of God, the Bible.

Correction ----

Your beliefs in inaccuracies as you have made them to be does not change the truth of the restored church and the restored gospel. I lose no sleep over the fiction created about my church.

For me, I builds my conviction of those who hate or whatever their motive regarding the restored gospel.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I agree with that partly.

Catholicism does not for me, prove that it is has the 17 characteristics of the true church ,despite some folks trying to convince me otherwise.

Nice try again.

Yes, I know. You’ve adopted interpreting scripture through the Mormons lens.

 

[JMM1957]

CourtingTex,

Personally, I think I’m about to disengage myself from this thread, or any other one addressing LDS teachings, if you are the only LDS member participating. I really do enjoy discussing other faith traditions here on CAF, but I like them to be constructive for both sides, using arguments with some substance either for or against a teaching. I’m really not seeing it here on this thread for the most part with you, at times you seem to want to seriously debate things, but most times you just want us to take it or leave it when it comes to LDS doctrine and teachings, hardly a very good argument. You said it’s not your job to defend your teachings, that is the job of the management, so to speak, and I’m beginning to believe that. However, there used to be a LDS member on the forum, jane doe I think, but she was banned from posting a while back, don’t know what that was about, anyway, she did a very good job of explaining LDS doctrine, even though I still disagreed with it.

 

[CourtingTex]

Yes, I know. You’ve adopted interpreting scripture through the Mormons lens.

How about by reading, study, and prayer with the Holy Ghost confirming? If that in the “Mormons lens” as you call it, I am grateful that the truth has set me free from Catholicism almost 30 years ago now.