Seems that Jesus commited heresy!?

[Zundrah]

The Scriptures have more than one meaning, Z boy.

"Z boy"!? I am a woman Eucharisted!!! Didn’t you know that!?

 

[Cachonga]

I think it would help if you remembered that Jesus was addressing the Saduccees (and they denied the resurrection of the dead). Jesus was correcting their misunderstanding of Scripture by pointing out what God had said. There is no contradiction.

Eucharisted:

History is your friend. In Jesus’ time, mostly everyone was pro-family, and most especially Israel. This is why many people took offense at His teachings about hating your family, about purity, about gentiles, etc. In Jesus’ time, Israel regarded geology as one of the most important parts of Judaism, as the key to holding itself in tact; this is why Matthew gives Jesus’ geology at the beginning of his gospel. ‘God of Abraham, Isacc, and Jacob’ was how Jews spoke of God in Jesus’ time; Jesus was a Jew, after all. He never broke any laws, just traditions of men.

Not to nit-pick, but I believe you meant to say “genaology”, not “geology” (then again, Jesus is the Rock).

 

[BPW75]

Zundrah, Jesus was not trying to interpret the meaning of the passage. The point that Jesus was making is that God did NOT say, “I WAS the God of Abraham…” but rather, “I AM the God of Abraham…” At this point they were already dead from a physical perspective, but the use of the term “I AM” indicates spiritual life after death.

Make sense?

 

[mardukm]

Dear Cachonga,

I think it would help if you remembered that Jesus was addressing the Saduccees (and they denied the resurrection of the dead). Jesus was correcting their misunderstanding of Scripture by pointing out what God had said. There is no contradiction.

Not to nit-pick, but I believe you meant to say “genaology”, not “geology” (then again, Jesus is the Rock).

Not to nit-pick, but I believe you meant to write “genealogy” not “genaology.”

Blessings

 

[BPW75]

And BTW, I’m not sure what good it does someone who is confused about a passage to say, “Well remember, Jesus is God. He would know, wouldn’t he? Therefore, you should just accept it.”

 

[Zundrah]

Zundrah, Jesus was not trying to interpret the meaning of the passage. The point that Jesus was making is that God did NOT say, “I WAS the God of Abraham…” but rather, “I AM the God of Abraham…” At this point they were already dead from a physical perspective, but the use of the term “I AM” indicates spiritual life after death.

Make sense?

…sort of.

 

[Zundrah]

And BTW, I’m not sure what good it does someone who is confused about a passage to say, “Well remember, Jesus is God. He would know, wouldn’t he? Therefore, you should just accept it.”

It’s not that simple.

 

[BPW75]

It’s not that simple.

I wasn’t directing that to you. I was directing those that were telling you that Jesus knows since he is God.

 

[BPW75]

…sort of.

Well think it through. He can’t be misinterpreting a passage that he isn’t attempting to interpret. He is demonstrating that by the language God used (“I am” vs “I was”) that those that have died physically are still alive spiritually.

God: I AM the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Moses: But God, they’re all dead. How can you STILL be their God?

God: Don’t you get it Moses? They’re still alive (spiritually)!

 

[Zundrah]

I wasn’t directing that to you. I was directing those that were telling you that Jesus knows since he is God.

Ah, I see.

Well think it through. He can’t be misinterpreting a passage that he isn’t attempting to interpret. He is demonstrating that by the language God used (“I am” vs “I was”) that those that have died physically are still alive spiritually.

God: I AM the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Moses: But God, they’re all dead. How can you STILL be their God?

God: Don’t you get it Moses? They’re still alive (spiritually)!

You little heretic, they never had that conversation!

 

[William_Pitts]

Matthew 22: 25;

31But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32’I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’[a]? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

But in Exudos chapter 3;

5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6 Then he said, **“I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” **At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

God was just telling Moses who he was, and that his ancesters use to worship him. But Jesus is using the scripture as a way to prove that we are alive with God even after death? Catholics also use this as a way to prove that the saints are not dead and that we CAN pray to them!?

…confused…? I am.

This is a perfect example of the confusion that can happen when the context of a passage of scripture is not considered. Jesus was answering a trick question by the Sadducees, who did not believe in an afterlife. They also only considered the 5 books of Moses as being inspired.

Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Not only did they not believe that physical death did not mean the end of a persons life but they reached this conclusion by not knowing the scriptures they claimed to understand. Yes the passage does support the idea that the departed are still alive.

Most of this chapter is dealing with questions from the Pharisees, Sadducees, and scribes who were all trying to make trouble for Jesus.

William

 

[Zundrah]

This is a perfect example of the confusion that can happen when the context of a passage of scripture is not considered. Jesus was answering a trick question by the Sadducees, who did not believe in an afterlife. They also only considered the 5 books of Moses as being inspired.

Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Not only did they not believe that physical death did not mean the end of a persons life but they reached this conclusion by not knowing the scriptures they claimed to understand. Yes the passage does support the idea that the departed are still alive.

Most of this chapter is dealing with questions from the Pharisees, Sadducees, and scribes who were all trying to make trouble for Jesus.

William

Now listen, if you read the scripture in Exodus alone, you would not conclude that God was talking about life after death;

Exudos chapter 3;

5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

 

[Benadam]

Now listen, if you read the scripture in Exodus alone, you would not conclude that God was talking about life after death;

 

[William_Pitts]

Now listen, if you read the scripture in Exodus alone, you would not conclude that God was talking about life after death;

You are correct. The emphasis is not on life after death. The emphasis is on the covenant that was made between Abraham, and confirmed with Issac and also Jacob. This a fulfillment of the promise made earlier:

Gen 50:24 And Joseph said to his brothers, “I am about to die; but God will visit you, and bring you up out of this land to the land which he swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.”
Gen 50:25 Then Joseph took an oath of the sons of Israel, saying, “God will visit you, and you shall carry up my bones from here.”

The Father’s covenant with his family is constant.

Read a little further:

Exo 3:13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?”
Exo 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Exo 3:15 God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you’: this is my name for ever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.
Exo 3:16 Go and gather the elders of Israel together, and say to them, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, has appeared to me, saying, “I have observed you and what has been done to you in Egypt;
Exo 3:17 and I promise that I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt, to the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites, a land flowing with milk and honey.”’

Notice in the passage in Matthew :

Mat 22:23 The same day Sadducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection; and they asked him a question…

The Sadducees, who did not believe in resurrection asked a question about the resurrection???

Jesus used a scripture they would have been familiar with but gave it a twist that confounded them…to explain that “He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”

There is also the possibility that Jesus explained the scripture to the Apostles after his resurrection and the teaching comes from Sacred Tradition. There is nothing in the passage that demands a particular interpretation. To me it’s straight forward. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still alive.

William

 

[Filius_Prodigus]

History is your friend. In Jesus’ time, mostly everyone was pro-family, and most especially Israel. This is why many people took offense at His teachings about hating your family, about purity, about gentiles, etc. In Jesus’ time, Israel regarded geology as one of the most important parts of Judaism, as the key to holding itself in tact; this is why Matthew gives Jesus’ geology at the beginning of his gospel. ‘God of Abraham, Isacc, and Jacob’ was how Jews spoke of God in Jesus’ time; Jesus was a Jew, after all. He never broke any laws, just traditions of men.

(1) Gentle reminder: It’s “genealogy”, not “geology”.

(2) The Romans were not pro-life at all.

Roman abortion practices revealed a disrespect for life as well. Physicians prescribed various medications to induce abortion. Rather than using abortants, many Romans exposed their children. That is, they took infants into the country leaving them to die by exposure, to be found by others or by wild animals. Quite often Romans found exposed infants and raised them as slaves or servants.

… from: christianchronicler.com/history1/first_century_pressure.html

History contains no mention of criminal abortions antecedent to the period of decadent morality in classic Greece. The crime seems not to have prevailed in the time of Moses, either among the Jews or among the surrounding nations; else that great legislator would certainly have spoken in condemnation of it. No mention of it occurs in the long enumeration of sins laid to the charge of the Canaanites. The first reference to it is found in the books attributed to Hippocrates, who required physicians to bind themselves by oath not to give to women drinks fatal to the child in the womb. At that period voluptuousness had corrupted the morals of the Greeks, and Aspasia was teaching ways of procuring abortion. In later times the Romans became still more depraved, and bolder in such practices

… from: newadvent.org/cathen/01046b.htm

And yes, Israel was quite pro-life, as can be seen in: bmei.org/jbem/volume1/num2/white_abortion_and_the_ancient_practice_of_child_sacrifice.pdf