Self-defense

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Psychotheosophy

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How do we reconcile,
Self-defense with
Obedience to Superiors?
 
I don’t see the conflict, can you give an example of a situation where this conflict would arise? The 4th commandment to honor your father and mother extends to obedience to all just authority, including civil government, and your own superiors, in everything that is not contrary to God’s law. Don’t see where self-defense comes into this at atll.
 
As others said, this is way to vague to answer well. Obedience to superiors is not absolute. If they are violating your inherent human dignity physically or some other immoral way, you have a right to defend yourself.
 
puzzleannie said:
I don’t see the conflict, can you give an example of a situation where this conflict would arise? The 4th commandment to honor your father and mother extends to obedience to all just authority, including civil government, and your own superiors, in everything that is not contrary to God’s law. Don’t see where self-defense comes into this at atll.
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Exactly what I was wondering. However, the Catechism speaks directly to the concept of defense, both of self and of others:
CCC2258 “Human life is sacred because from its beginning it involves the creative action of God and it remains for ever in a special relationship with the Creator, who is its sole end. God alone is the Lord of life from its beginning until its end: no one can under any circumstance claim for himself the right directly to destroy an innocent human being.”
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Legitimate defense
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CCC2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. “The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not.”
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CCC2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:
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If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one’s own life than of another’s.
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CCC2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
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Scottgun said:
As others said, this is way to vague to answer well. Obedience to superiors is not absolute. If they are violating your inherent human dignity physically or some other immoral way, you have a right to defend yourself.
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I agree, but obedience to superiors can be broken down further.

Obedience to government leaders
Obedience to parents
Obedience to priests
Obedience to God.

Also,

Self-defense can be necessary in many situations,
Abortion and Euthanasia for example.
But also abuse.

What is the criteria for making decisions in these situations?
Self-defense does not necessarily means to kill, does it?
How do we define “inherent human dignity?”
 
Psychotheosophy said:
I agree, but obedience to superiors can be broken down further.

Obedience to government leaders
Obedience to parents
Obedience to priests
Obedience to God.

Also,

**Self-defense can be necessary in many situations,
Abortion and Euthanasia **for example.
But also abuse.

What is the criteria for making decisions in these situations?
Self-defense does not necessarily means to kill, does it?
How do we define “inherent human dignity?”
Click to expand...
Can you explain what you mean by this.
 
Psychotheosophy said:
I agree, but obedience to superiors can be broken down further.

Obedience to government leaders
Obedience to parents
Obedience to priests
Obedience to God.

Also,

Self-defense can be necessary in many situations,
Abortion and Euthanasia for example.(*???)
But also abuse.

What is the criteria for making decisions in these situations?
Self-defense does not necessarily means to kill, does it?
How do we define “inherent human dignity?”
Click to expand...
I don’t see how you tie self defense with obedience. *Your posts are a tad bit confusing.
 
Psychotheosophy said:
I once heard a priest say that,
Abortion and Euthanasia is always murder.

Are there exceptions to the rule?
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no exceptions, abortion and euthanasia are gravely evil always

this has nothing whatever to do with either obedience to superiors or self-defense, so we are still waiting for your real agenda to emerge
 
Psychotheosophy said:
I agree, but obedience to superiors can be broken down further.

Obedience to government leaders
Obedience to parents
Obedience to priests
Obedience to God.

Also,

Self-defense can be necessary in many situations,
Abortion and Euthanasia for example.
But also abuse.

What is the criteria for making decisions in these situations?
Self-defense does not necessarily means to kill, does it?
How do we define “inherent human dignity?”
Click to expand...
I think that the part of the CCC you want has to do with civil uprisings, the rules for which are similar to just war. For a people to rise up against those whom God has permitted to be over them, there would have to be grave reasons to do so, an exhausting of the peaceful or legal remedies, a good chance of success, and the disorder caused by the uprising would have to be proportionate.

I imagine that similar notions would come into play with regard to employers and the like.
 
Psychotheosophy said:
I agree, but obedience to superiors can be broken down further.

Obedience to government leaders
Obedience to parents
Obedience to priests
Obedience to God.

Also,

Self-defense can be necessary in many situations,
Abortion and Euthanasia for example.
But also abuse.

What is the criteria for making decisions in these situations?
Self-defense does not necessarily means to kill, does it?
How do we define “inherent human dignity?”
Click to expand...
Still not catching your drift. How do you tie this to self defense ? Please restate your question/position.
 
St_Francis said:
I think that the part of the CCC you want has to do with civil uprisings, the rules for which are similar to just war. For a people to rise up against those whom God has permitted to be over them, there would have to be grave reasons to do so, an exhausting of the peaceful or legal remedies, a good chance of success, and the disorder caused by the uprising would have to be proportionate.

I imagine that similar notions would come into play with regard to employers and the like.
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Why should we submit to reason?
 
Psychotheosophy said:
How do we reconcile,
Self-defense with
Obedience to Superiors?
Click to expand...
I don’t know what this is asking,
but I’m a second degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do, and I’ve been trained to seriously maim, or kill an opponent.

I’ve also been trained that I may only strike when the opponent directly attacks me, or another person.

Being Catholic however, makes a difference in my training. Catholics believe that every person was born with basic human rights. These rights include: right to live. When someone endangers this right, it is alright to step in and defend the individual.

I’m not saying go into an abortion clinic and start beating the pulp out of the doctors :),
just offering my opinion.
 
Psychotheosophy said:
How do we reconcile,
Self-defense with
Obedience to Superiors?
Click to expand...
Why are you being so evasive about providing a context for your question? What is your straight forward example of a scenario where these would come into conflict? Lacking that context, it is impossible to answer your question. There could be some cases where it would be justified, others where it would not be.

What is your scenario?
 
St_Francis said:
Because reason is what separates us from the animals and makes us man. Without reason, we’d just be apes or chimps.
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So,

Reason belongs to higher beings?

God is Existence,
Existence is the principle of logic,
And logic is objective by definition.
And yet when we apply logic to just war,
We find uncertainty and subjectivity.

When following principle,
We find that which is
Hard and Fast, and
Black and White;
Fluid and,
Grey.

Is Existence the principle of creating art?
Is Beauty the principle of creating art?

Creating art belongs to higher beings?
youngsaint said:
I don’t know what this is asking,
but I’m a second degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do, and I’ve been trained to seriously maim, or kill an opponent.

I’ve also been trained that I may only strike when the opponent directly attacks me, or another person.

Being Catholic however, makes a difference in my training. Catholics believe that every person was born with basic human rights. These rights include: right to live. When someone endangers this right, it is alright to step in and defend the individual.

I’m not saying go into an abortion clinic and start beating the pulp out of the doctors :),
just offering my opinion.
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How do you understand
The Taoist idea of Ying and Yang
In contrast to Catholicism?
DOShea said:
Why are you being so evasive about providing a context for your question? What is your straight forward example of a scenario where these would come into conflict? Lacking that context, it is impossible to answer your question. There could be some cases where it would be justified, others where it would not be.

What is your scenario?
Click to expand...
I agree,
Context can increase certainty.
 
Psychotheosophy said:
So,

Reason belongs to higher beings?

God is Existence,
Existence is the principle of logic,
And logic is objective by definition.
And yet when we apply logic to just war,
We find uncertainty and subjectivity.

When following principle,
We find that which is
Hard and Fast, and
Black and White;
Fluid and,
Grey.

Is Existence the principle of creating art?
Is Beauty the principle of creating art?

Creating art belongs to higher beings?

How do you understand
The Taoist idea of Ying and Yang
In contrast to Catholicism?

I agree,
Context can increase certainty.
Click to expand...
You are wandering too much. :confused:What is it you want to talk about? Give us a topic.
 
bigfootbob said:
You are wandering too much. :confused:What is it you want to talk about? Give us a topic.
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You see no relationship between
Obedience to Superiors,
Self-defense,
And
Just war?

I gave you a concrete example in post #9,
Maybe you should clarify yourself.
 
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