Self Flagellation and Self Mutilation

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dominikus28

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I understand the value of self mortification through things like having cold showers and fasting, etc but wouldn’t it be sinful to self-flagellate to the point of drawing blood? I would understand if one whipped oneself to cause discomfort, to the point of redness, and maybe drawing a little blood (a small scratch), but not flowing blood and not to the point of creating permanent scars. Wouldn’t that be disrespecting the body that God gave you? I have heard that people in the Philippines practice self-crucifixion at Lent and that this is condemned by the Church. So why did Saints in the past self mutilate? For example, Josemaria Escriva apparently self-flagellated himself so much that blood would splatter on the walls - how is this possibly permitted?
 
In the old law, it states how one is not to cut themselves, it’s the same thing going on if you are following that and are going by the letter in that regards.

The purpose with those that do it, sometimes to extremes is a desire to share in the passion of Christ. When you are in adoration, or are praying the rosary, try to imagine yourself in his place some time during his passion, it can be quite moving, and this is what they are trying to recapture much of the time. Another aspect is they are also trying to seperate themselves from the flesh, as intentionally causing discomfort to it in order to prove mastery over it. The problem with the latter, you are delving into S an M type of stuff, and it requires more and more extremes to make the same impact in ones mind, which is why it’s discouraged with the guys pinning themselves on the cross, they took it too far. Same thing with fasting, taking it to the point of starving ones self to death, same thing with any number of things, and clearly the church is directing us to use discretion, and if that cannot be exercised, then eliminate the practice in ones own personal practices. It’s not mandated ever, it’s also something never to be delved into by anybody unless they have a very mature sense of discernment, and even then, only if they feel compelled to do so. Personally, life has enough thrown at myself, no need to add more pain to it, but I have to admit, there has been many times where I’ve remained in prayer, kneeling in pain in a great deal of discomfort, just to share in this one a little, so can see where these people are coming from.
 
The problem with the latter, you are delving into S an M type of stuff, and it requires more and more extremes to make the same impact in ones mind
Preeeecisely! :sad_yes: It’s like a drug: you start with MaryJane, and it keeps escalating till you’re into heroin. Utterly unhealthy, both physically **and **spiritually.
Personally, life has enough thrown at myself, no need to add more pain to it
AMMMMEN! 👍

Dominikus, also take a look at this post; it might help you sort this out.
 
Thanks for the replies, they are very helpful 👍

But assuming one doesn’t get into the S&M stuff, so assuming one can go on forever increasing the severity of the mortification but still be selfless i.e. do it for God, not for one’s own gratification, then would there be a limit? Could one, for example, whip oneself on the back until the flesh had been ripped away to the bone? I am exaggerating a bit, but I’d think that even though that is being selfless, that is hurting your own body and I don’t think God would be happy with that. That would leave horrible scars. Am I right, or would that be acceptable to God? I’ve heard that Saints have severely punished themselves with corporal mortification, but I have always imagined that they went until redness and stopped there and didn’t continue when blood was drawn. I have in mind a situation where I have to explain this to a friend, and I don’t think he would understand going to those extremes, even if he was Catholic.

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Guardia-battenti.jpg
Is this permitted? this happens in a town in Italy Guardia Sanframondi.

Also there was a heretical group that was condemned by the Church in the 14th century, called the Flagellants. Was the reason they were condemned that they went ‘too far’ or was it because they did it in public?

Were the whips used by saints, and other people in middle ages for example, leather whips, or did they have metal bits on them designed to rip away flesh?
 
It seems that forms of self mutilation are hard wired. In the UK, a country often touted as rational we see the ubiquity of tattooing and body piercing among the almost universally uncatechised young and not so young. We also see the epidemmic of eating disorder.

Self mutilation is it would seem not a function of religious belief but rather a part of human behaviour. which god invites us to use to get closer to him rather than to simply punish ourselves fro no purpose.
 
I understand the value of self mortification through things like having cold showers and fasting, etc but wouldn’t it be sinful to self-flagellate to the point of drawing blood? I would understand if one whipped oneself to cause discomfort, to the point of redness, and maybe drawing a little blood (a small scratch), but not flowing blood and not to the point of creating permanent scars. Wouldn’t that be disrespecting the body that God gave you? I have heard that people in the Philippines practice self-crucifixion at Lent and that this is condemned by the Church. So why did Saints in the past self mutilate? For example, Josemaria Escriva apparently self-flagellated himself so much that blood would splatter on the walls - how is this possibly permitted?
SOME things are not in keeping with sound spiritual life (and some are even sinful…)

SOME other things are given to the (to be Canonized) Saints…but only for them.

(I do not say that such reports by the way are accurate)

Much though is good for any Christian and in various degrees accordingly…(using prudence etc) (with proper spiritual direction for some things)

This will help:

holyspiritinteractive.net/columns/guests/michaelgiesler/corporalmortification.asp
 
If I understand it correctly, physical mortification beyond minor things like fasting and perhaps a hairshirt should NOT be done without the (name removed by moderator)ut of a qualified spiritual director. Too easy to go off the deep end in weirdness.
 
The saints practice strong corporal mortification. St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori, St. Francis of Assisi, St. Jean Maria Vianney, St. Rose of Lima… It’s clear that concern about leaving scars, physical beauty of any kind, was not their concern… It’s been an accepted punishment for crimes as well as penance for oneself.

St. Paul gives his example:

“I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps when I have preached to others I myself should be castaway” (I Cor. 9:27)

“In my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, that is the Church.” (Col 1:24)

The desert monks too…

"Regarding a certain brother, I learned that, after renouncing the world, he went to live on Mount Nitria. His cell was close to that of another brother, whom he would hear weeping incessantly every day over his sins. When, after a long time, tears did not come to him, he said to his soul: “Are you not weeping, you wretch, and are you not lamenting? Believe me, if you are reluctant, I will make you weep.” He arose, took a whip that had a crop of solid gold, from which there hung a double rope, and beat himself with it so hard that he began to weep from the pain.

The brother who lived with him marvelled at what this brother was doing and besought God to reveal to him whether the latter was doing right in tormenting himself. And, in fact, one night in a dream he saw the brother wearing a crown and standing among the Martyrs; and someone was saying to him, as he was dreaming: “Behold the good struggler, who is tormenting himself for the sake of Christ, how he is crowned together with the Martyrs.”
  • from the Sayings of the Desert Fathers
‘Go to the cemetary and see what you love, when you love your body.’

‘We give our youth to the devil, and the remains of our life to the Good God, who is so good that He deigns to be content with even that. . . but, happily, everyone does not do so. A great lady has been here, of one of the first families in France; she went away this morning. She is scarcely three-and-twenty, and she is rich-very rich indeed. . . She has offered herself in sacrifice to the good God for the expiation of sins, and for the conversion of sinners. She wears a girdle all armed with iron points; she mortifies herself in a thousand ways; and her parents know nothing of it. She is white as a sheet of paper. Hers is a beautiful soul, very pleasing to the good God, such as are still to be found now and then in the world, and they prevent the world from coming to an end.’

St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars

"As for the spirit of penance which animated, he never omitted to discipline himself to the blood every day, and the walls of his chamber would have borne constant witness to these macerations, if Mgr. Rossi, his successor, had not had them covered over by several coats of white-wash. It was asserted that his drawers were steeped in blood, as if they had been plunged in it. The prior of the Dominicans at Durazzano once dwelt in the bishop’s house, on account of the examinations. The very next day they terminated, he wishes to set out immediately, (although it was late in the day,) and being urged to remain, he said: “I would return were it midnight, for I have not the heart to hear the flagellations of this poor old man any longer.”

In order to obtain an increase of grace from God for himself and his flock, he used generally, on the vigils of feasts, to scourge himself with various cruel instruments, and especially with small cords armed with sharp steel stars. He also redoubled his macerations at the carnival and other profane fetes. Not satisfied with these bloody disciplines, he also mortified his flesh by horse-hair shirts studded with iron points, or by sharp little crosses with which he covered his shoulders, his arms and legs; when he sat down or got up again, his motions betrayed his sufferings. All the particulars of these instruments of penance would have been unknown, if the curiosity of some people had not revealed them to us. “I saw them all secretly,” said a canon, who had lived in filial intimacy with him, “in a strong box, of which his lordship kept the key under his bed: I could not help shuddering the first time I opened it.” How little he ate, we have seen above. There was a time when he lived on abstinence food entirely; and what was left of his food was so bad on account of the bitter herbs with which he had seasoned it, that not only the poor, but even animals, would not touch it. During the day also, he used to chew these herbs in order to mortify his palate, and he kept such a quantity of them, that one quite smelt them on entering his room.
  • Life of St. Alphonsus, by Anonymous
‘Where there is no great mortification there is no great sanctity.’

St. Philip Neri

‘Let us read the lives of the saints; let us consider the penances which they performed, and blush to be so effeminate and so fearful of mortifying our flesh.’

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

Be careful not to admit into your society those delicate and sensitive people who are afraid of the slightest pin- prick, who cry out and complain at the least pain, who know nothing of the hair-shirt, the discipline or other instruments of penance, and who mingle, with their fashionable devotions, a most refined fastidiousness and a most studied lack of mortification.

St. Louis Marie de Montfort
 
So basically, what that monk was doing in the Da Vinci Code, beating himself bloody, etc was acceptable?
And self-mutilation is good, as long as it is for God?
 
So basically, what that monk was doing in the Da Vinci Code, beating himself bloody, etc was acceptable?
And self-mutilation is good, as long as it is for God?
I didn’t read that book, nor will I ever, but I have heard that it has done plenty of harm in its twists of characterizations and descriptions. No one should read it or consider its examples likely to be proper. Look for a different example to draw from. 🙂

And let it be clear: corporal mortification is done not for the sake of any sensual gratification whatsoever, but for penance and its opposite. It is done for the sake of the love of God and to make up for past sins, ones own, and for others.

Every sin we commit deserves penance. If we do not do the penance in this life, we do an incalculably greater penance in purgatory, if in fact we do get so far having neglected penance.

Corporal punishment has been proscribed throughout all of history as punishment for crimes, and the lack thereof so recently I have always thought is one of the reasons why our society may be in bad shape.

Christ Himself scourged the money lenders in the Temple, and Himself did not shirk from bearing the scourge for our sins. Deo gratias.

‘Tell me, you who in your arrogance mock at Christ’s passion, you who, in refusing to be stripped and scourged with Him, deride His nakedness and all His torments as foolish and vain things like the illusions which come to us in sleep, what will you do when you see Him who was stripped in public and hung on the Cross shining in the glory of His majesty, surrounded by the angelic host, with His immeasurable and incomparable splendour round about Him, more glorious than all things, visible or invisible? What, I say, will you do, when you behold Him for whose shame you now have nothing but scorn, seated on the fiery throne of the tribunal of Heaven, and judging the whole human race in the dreadful judgment of His justice? By what rash boldness of presumption do you hope to share in His glory, whose shame and injuries you scorned to bear?’

St. Peter Damien
 
Growing up I was always taught that the body was a temple, made in the image of God and into which we recieve the body of Christ at communion. Therefore one’s body should be respected and looked after properly. It is a part of respecting one’s self. Therefore, self flaggelation, tattooing, piercings, etc, are signs of a lack of self respect in varing degrees. We should be happy with the way we look and provided we look after our God given body, there is no need to have it altered, nor should we allow it to be damaged in any way.
 
And let it be clear: corporal mortification is done not for the sake of any sensual gratification whatsoever, but for penance and its opposite. It is done for the sake of the love of God and to make up for past sins, ones own, and for others.
Ok, so assuming this condition is fulfilled, it is ok to whip oneself until drawing blood? Have you seen the movie? All the objections from Catholics have been that that is an inaccurate portrayal of Opus Dei. But beside that fact that there are no monks in opus dei, it would be possible and perfectly legitimate for a member of Opus Dei to scourge himself to such a degree, right?

Also, I heard that the crucifixion of people during Lent in the Philippines has been condemned by the Church - is that because self-flagellation is to be a private thing? Is it comdemned by the Church to mortify the flesh in public? Is that also why the flagellants of the 14th century were condemned, because they did it in public?
As long as it is in private, between you and God, it is ok.

Oh, and also, ok, so self-flagellation is ok even if it draws blood as long as it is selfless and in private. But would it be condemned if self-flagellation lead to preventing your body from functioning properly? I mean scaring doesn’t prevent your body from functioning, but for example, it WOULD NOT be acceptable for a person to cut off their hand or cut out their eyes for God, because gave you a body and you are destroying it. Just like the King gave his servants talents, and one of them didn’t use them - it is unacceptable. Well, that is how I see it and that is my justification in my mind. Am I correct? Yes or no will do, and further expansion is appreciated
Growing up I was always taught that the body was a temple, made in the image of God and into which we recieve the body of Christ at communion. Therefore one’s body should be respected and looked after properly. It is a part of respecting one’s self. Therefore, self flaggelation, tattooing, piercings, etc, are signs of a lack of self respect in varing degrees. We should be happy with the way we look and provided we look after our God given body, there is no need to have it altered, nor should we allow it to be damaged in any way.
Also good point. Anyone care to explain?

Thanks
 
So basically, what that monk was doing in the Da Vinci Code, beating himself bloody, etc was acceptable?
And self-mutilation is good, as long as it is for God?
The Da Vinci Code is not what one ought to go by. It does not represent truth.
 
Dominikus

Please read this article --it will explain things:

holyspiritinteractive.net/columns/guests/michaelgiesler/corporalmortification.asp

He is even a Priest of Opus Dei by the way…

(and to answer your question about Opus Dei…I spoke to a member and it is something that is done very simply…no blood quirts out…)

Read it slowly…maybe even print it.

SOME things are not in keeping with sound spiritual life (and some are even sinful!! and should never be done)

SOME other things are given to the (to be Canonized) Saints…but only for them (not normally things that are imitatable…and some things are just unrepeatable…and even perhaps some things they should not have done but did innocently…one can make a mistake…this is one reason why for certain things a spiritual director is important…)

Much though is good for any Christian and in various degrees accordingly…(using prudence etc) (with proper spiritual direction for some things…)
 
I cannot imagine that God would want someone to hurt themselves in His name. Not only does it seem like a huge waste of time, but I would think it would likely lead to pridefulness. A silly practice if you ask me, and one that would call someone’s mental state into question. There is a difference between fasting and beating the **** out of yourself. Can these people think of NO other sacrifice to make to God that would actually be PRODUCTIVE and possibly help another human being?
 
I cannot imagine that God would want someone to hurt themselves in His name. Not only does it seem like a huge waste of time, but I would think it would likely lead to pridefulness. A silly practice if you ask me, and one that would call someone’s mental state into question. There is a difference between fasting and beating the **** out of yourself. Can these people think of NO other sacrifice to make to God that would actually be PRODUCTIVE and possibly help another human being?
Yes…SOME such practices are not what the Church would recommend…and some are sinful.

But other things are not contrary to the Church and are rather seen as good etc.

Best thing to do is read the article above…
 
It seems that forms of self mutilation are hard wired. In the UK, a country often touted as rational we see the ubiquity of tattooing and body piercing among the almost universally uncatechised young and not so young. We also see the epidemmic of eating disorder.

Self mutilation is it would seem not a function of religious belief but rather a part of human behaviour. which god invites us to use to get closer to him rather than to simply punish ourselves fro no purpose.
Masochists (religious or otherwise) are mentally ill, and should be not be encouraged in their harmful practices. Regardless of whether or not there is a spiritual dimension to what they do.
 
I didn’t read that book, nor will I ever, but I have heard that it has done plenty of harm in its twists of characterizations and descriptions. No one should read it or consider its examples likely to be proper. Look for a different example to draw from. 🙂
Being afraid to face your critics and enemies words give them added weight and power.
 
I cannot imagine that God would want someone to hurt themselves in His name. Not only does it seem like a huge waste of time, but I would think it would likely lead to pridefulness. A silly practice if you ask me, and one that would call someone’s mental state into question. There is a difference between fasting and beating the **** out of yourself. Can these people think of NO other sacrifice to make to God that would actually be PRODUCTIVE and possibly help another human being?
Mutilation not good. But clearly enduring pain and suffering can be good for our development. Smiling when you don’t want to is a form of discomfort, holding your tongue, persevering in your duties, going back over your work to make sure it’s accurate, picking up worm ridden bodies in the streets of Calcutta - all these things can put you in contact with pain and adjustment, no? All are forms of dying to ourselves. All can be useful and loving mortifications, surely.

Runners and other athletes tear down their muscles when training - when pushing past their own current level of strength/weakness, no? We don’t call that mutilation, do we, but it pretty much is.

I think God wants us to love, to give ourselves, to die of generosity, and if that sort of living is accompanied with pain and struggle (clearly discussed by Saint Paul), then we should use these opportunities to draw closer to Jesus. So we can convert even pain and suffering into prayer.

All the points above about spiritual direction are sound. My thinking is when I no longer have to struggle to smile when I don’t want to, to work more intensely than I feel like it, to help around the house when I am dog tired, to wake up quickly with a smile, to not waste time, to put myself last in line, to not talk about myself, to help others even more - when I run out of all the little ways of mortification, then I’ll ask my spiritual director for some other ideas.

But I’ve got a long way to go before then, maybe a lifetime.
 
Being afraid to face your critics and enemies words give them added weight and power.
It’s not fear to leave garbage in the trash rather than pick around in it.

I haven’t seen the movie either no. Most movies are not worth seeing these days, and a good deal of the rest of entertainment, as we are in a period of widespread moral corruption.

The Philippines people who re-enact crucifixions is a local level thing, with individual bishops exerting their personal choices and opinions authoritatively as to what they want going on and don’t want going on within their territories, that is my impression for what little it’s worth. Just like some bishops would forbid Latin masses, etc.
from functioning properly? I mean scaring doesn’t prevent your body from functioning, but for example, it WOULD NOT be acceptable for a person to cut off their hand or cut out their eyes for God, because gave you a body and you are destroying it.
This is a more complicated issue, which I am not clear on all the contributing factors of.

But yes of course this is where it is at least generally not acceptable, barring extraordinary factors, that would allow for it along the dire level of surgery to cut off limbs because otherwise one will die of gangrene, etc. 🙂
 
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