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aliciaswain
Guest
I found this article very interesting and informative, thank you for posting it.
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Anian
Guest
Can we restart the discussion on this? I personally have flailed myself for the purpose of growing stronger in mind and spirit if not body, and I do it whilst praying, I have also restarted my old habit of wearing a cilice. I do this all without anyone knowing so I do it not for pride but honestly to become closer to god.
Now I know your body is the temple of the holy spirit so one should not desecrate it. However our lord Jesus Christ during his time on earth commanded of us that (Mark 9:43) “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off.” Now I honestly want to stop sinning I have overcome a lot with God’s Help but there is one mortal sin I cannot overcome, even after abstaining from it for up to a month I always fall back to it. I’ll give you a hint, I’m a guy. I know I cannot continue on my Vocational path continually committing such a mortal and self serving sin. So seeing as I will never put it to good use anyway under a vow of celibacy, would it be a sin if I removed after all It causes me to sin and Jesus commands us to remove what causes us to sin from our body.
Now I know your body is the temple of the holy spirit so one should not desecrate it. However our lord Jesus Christ during his time on earth commanded of us that (Mark 9:43) “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off.” Now I honestly want to stop sinning I have overcome a lot with God’s Help but there is one mortal sin I cannot overcome, even after abstaining from it for up to a month I always fall back to it. I’ll give you a hint, I’m a guy. I know I cannot continue on my Vocational path continually committing such a mortal and self serving sin. So seeing as I will never put it to good use anyway under a vow of celibacy, would it be a sin if I removed after all It causes me to sin and Jesus commands us to remove what causes us to sin from our body.
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baltobetsy
Guest
These out-of-the-ordinary mortifications MUST be done with the permission of one’s confessor or spiritual director. Other than your confessor, no one needs to know, you are right about that, but mortifying yourself in this way on your own can indeed lead to pride. You may not think it possible, but, believe me, it is.
Put away your cilice and discipline until you have permission to use them. Only then will it be fruitful for you.
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Shin
Guest
For what little it’s worth…
Going so far as to, just for example, make oneself a eunuch is forbidden, in fact, it can or at least has in the past barred your entry into for example, the priesthood, by decree, though I do not know if some of these are still in force or not, the moral reasons behind that forbidding remains to us to consider, and I do not think such a person would manage to get in even if the law is no longer enforced directly.
The saints I read of overcome lust without resorting to the above. There is no tradition of doing the above. On the contrary, it is spoken against. Moreover temptation occurs interiorly, the devil does not require a person to have certain body parts to tempt consent interiorly to various desires, or produce those desires.
In other words… it’s not the body that’s the problem, it’s the interior life.
So too, temptation and overcoming it is part of the path of salvation. And surrender to Divine Providence.
The virtue of **temperance **is all the more necessary in these times. That is limited use of all things, in moderation. I think that many mortal sins that are habitual are the result of intemperance, that is doing any activity to excess and so having a habit of excess and reliance on something worldly, that is too fundamentally part of a person.
Temperance has been key in my life towards purity.
If you’re having problems with lust issues, get rid of the television (everyone should, issues or not), secular entertainment, and get out of the house often, have a strong daily prayer life, and do not overuse the computer – and when you do use it have filters, like K9 protection, ad-blockers, image blockers, etc. Or if necessary, do too cut off the Internet/get rid of the computer. Modesty of the eyes is essential, the habit of not looking and hating rather than liking even that which may be permissible. St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori writes about it.
Get rid of entertainment that has anything to do with temptation. So much of it is based on impure relationships, yes plenty of old movies, old books, places at first thought perhaps likely to be better.
Replace things you get rid of with books by the saints.
All entertainment that display or produce sins against the name of God, using His name in vain, blasphemy, should be gotten rid of. Another reason for no TV.
Start living like a monk in the world. One has to give up impurity sooner or later, all marital relations are gone forever after death, period, permanently. For those who go to Heaven and those who go to Hell.
Vices are bad habits. We form virtuous habits to overcome them. It is quite possible to form the habit of hating looking at women impurely, or even to hating rather than appreciating any external beauty not impurely, but because it is an occasion of sin, so that it is almost instinctive and follows through unconsciously.
This habit then guards you with far less active work than it is put through to produce it.
A long term vice has formed long term habits of pleasure association with it, but these can be broken by long term virtue, forming new memories and associations with the objects.
Even a eunuch can sin with impure attraction, because it takes place interiorly, in the will and the pleasure association, which can very easily occur in them as well. And so too someone who has formed habits of vice.
I think you truly need a good spiritual director/confessor relationship.
Though we want the best we can get in a spiritual director or confessor, even a highly flawed one can help a person with certain sins that are common, as long as he is properly educated on how to help a person with that particular sin.
‘To those who wish to stand in God’s grace, neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting.’
St. Hilary of Poitiers
‘He who does not like working, feeds passions by idleness and gives his desires freedom to fly to kindred objects. This is specially evident in prayer, for then the attention of the mind is wholly absorbed in what occupies the heart, and thought merely turns over and over the suggestions offered by the stirrings of some passion, instead of conversing with God and asking Him for what profits it. Knowing this, St. Paul vigorously attacks idleness and by his Apostolic authority commands all to work. [II Thessalonians 3:6-12] Work is an anchor for thought and gives it a safe direction. Let storms and gusts of wind come from all sides, threatening shipwreck – thought stands firm, kept steadfast by work as by an anchor; even if somewhat agitated by rising suggestions, it is not led into danger, for the bonds that hold it fast are stronger than the driving winds.’
St. Nilus of Sinai
Going so far as to, just for example, make oneself a eunuch is forbidden, in fact, it can or at least has in the past barred your entry into for example, the priesthood, by decree, though I do not know if some of these are still in force or not, the moral reasons behind that forbidding remains to us to consider, and I do not think such a person would manage to get in even if the law is no longer enforced directly.
The saints I read of overcome lust without resorting to the above. There is no tradition of doing the above. On the contrary, it is spoken against. Moreover temptation occurs interiorly, the devil does not require a person to have certain body parts to tempt consent interiorly to various desires, or produce those desires.
In other words… it’s not the body that’s the problem, it’s the interior life.
So too, temptation and overcoming it is part of the path of salvation. And surrender to Divine Providence.
The virtue of **temperance **is all the more necessary in these times. That is limited use of all things, in moderation. I think that many mortal sins that are habitual are the result of intemperance, that is doing any activity to excess and so having a habit of excess and reliance on something worldly, that is too fundamentally part of a person.
Temperance has been key in my life towards purity.
If you’re having problems with lust issues, get rid of the television (everyone should, issues or not), secular entertainment, and get out of the house often, have a strong daily prayer life, and do not overuse the computer – and when you do use it have filters, like K9 protection, ad-blockers, image blockers, etc. Or if necessary, do too cut off the Internet/get rid of the computer. Modesty of the eyes is essential, the habit of not looking and hating rather than liking even that which may be permissible. St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori writes about it.
Get rid of entertainment that has anything to do with temptation. So much of it is based on impure relationships, yes plenty of old movies, old books, places at first thought perhaps likely to be better.
Replace things you get rid of with books by the saints.
All entertainment that display or produce sins against the name of God, using His name in vain, blasphemy, should be gotten rid of. Another reason for no TV.
Start living like a monk in the world. One has to give up impurity sooner or later, all marital relations are gone forever after death, period, permanently. For those who go to Heaven and those who go to Hell.
Vices are bad habits. We form virtuous habits to overcome them. It is quite possible to form the habit of hating looking at women impurely, or even to hating rather than appreciating any external beauty not impurely, but because it is an occasion of sin, so that it is almost instinctive and follows through unconsciously.
This habit then guards you with far less active work than it is put through to produce it.
A long term vice has formed long term habits of pleasure association with it, but these can be broken by long term virtue, forming new memories and associations with the objects.
Even a eunuch can sin with impure attraction, because it takes place interiorly, in the will and the pleasure association, which can very easily occur in them as well. And so too someone who has formed habits of vice.
I think you truly need a good spiritual director/confessor relationship.
Though we want the best we can get in a spiritual director or confessor, even a highly flawed one can help a person with certain sins that are common, as long as he is properly educated on how to help a person with that particular sin.‘To those who wish to stand in God’s grace, neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting.’
St. Hilary of Poitiers
‘He who does not like working, feeds passions by idleness and gives his desires freedom to fly to kindred objects. This is specially evident in prayer, for then the attention of the mind is wholly absorbed in what occupies the heart, and thought merely turns over and over the suggestions offered by the stirrings of some passion, instead of conversing with God and asking Him for what profits it. Knowing this, St. Paul vigorously attacks idleness and by his Apostolic authority commands all to work. [II Thessalonians 3:6-12] Work is an anchor for thought and gives it a safe direction. Let storms and gusts of wind come from all sides, threatening shipwreck – thought stands firm, kept steadfast by work as by an anchor; even if somewhat agitated by rising suggestions, it is not led into danger, for the bonds that hold it fast are stronger than the driving winds.’
St. Nilus of Sinai
J
Jonathan_1995
Guest
King James Version says: “But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.”
Paul is not referring to self flagellation there, or self mutilation. Romans 8:13 says we are to mortify the deeds of the body through the Spirit. If it’s through the Spirit that it’s done, how can one rely on self flagellation, which is not through the Spirit, but through physical means?
He’s not talking about self-affliction, but obviously about persecution, which we read of here:
[BIBLEDRB]2 Corinthians 11:24-28[/BIBLEDRB]
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Shin
Guest
‘I therefore so run, not as at an uncertainty: I so fight, not as one beating the air: But I chastise my body, and bring it into servitude, lest perhaps when I have preached to others, myself become reprobate.’
1 Cor 9:26-27
Quoting the previous verse additionally – The verses go with each other. He is not beating the air. Rather the body.
I believe many other translations by non-Catholics though unacceptable in their entirety, tend to make this particular verse clear enough on this point as a search for 1 cor. 9:26 shows.
This is an old thread, so if you wish to discuss the matter further perhaps you should start a new one, or PM, forgive me.
Some things one might consider:
1 Cor 9:26-27
Quoting the previous verse additionally – The verses go with each other. He is not beating the air. Rather the body.
I believe many other translations by non-Catholics though unacceptable in their entirety, tend to make this particular verse clear enough on this point as a search for 1 cor. 9:26 shows.
This is an old thread, so if you wish to discuss the matter further perhaps you should start a new one, or PM, forgive me.
Some things one might consider:
- This is a matter of the spirit being of more value than the body – there can be no comparison whatsoever.
- The matter of justice. Justice requires punishment, penance on some level. Justice is assuaged by mercy, but it is not vanished and removed from one’s life or the earth, because justice is a virtue and a good, and so is part of life.
- Love. While we are on this earth as wayfarers we can perform acts in union with Christ that have spiritual value that we cannot perform in the next life. Those who love, wish to be a part of the one they love – and so a part of Christ’s suffering journey so as to be in Communion with Him.
- Medicine. If the body’s desires and needs rule the soul, we are lost because the body’s desires are sin. So we must be able to voluntarily bear pains, and accustom ourselves to this, not only through involuntary sufferings but chosen ones. And so this develops the virtue of fortitude.
V
vames
Guest
- So the body, the temple of the Holy Spirit, has to be punished for having less value? Not to mention that the classic concept of self-mortification includes spiritual mortification (refraining from reading some books, from listening to secular music or from thinking for oneself = obedience towards religious superiors).
- The Church teaches that we obtain forginevess of sins through repentance and confession of sins. No priest would assign physical or mental torture as penance when he gives absolution. Did Jesus require or apply any physical punishment to the sinners whom He forgave? And the psalmist says: “My sacrifice, O God, is a contrite spirit; a contrite, humbled heart, O God, you will not scorn”. This is what is pleasant to God, our Father. What parent could rejoice if his children torture themselves?
- There’s no human being exempt from suffering in this life: the sufferings that we can’t avoid. Illnesses, poverty, war, natural disasters, the sufferings and death of their dear ones. The Christian is called to unite these sufferings with the sufferings of Christ, not to provoke himself additional, unneeded sufferings.
- The virtue of fortitude can be developed very well just by living in this world, having to work hard to earn a living and enduring the sufferings that we can’t avoid. If one rejects the idea of self-flagellation or other self-inflicted tortures, it doesn’t mean that his virtue of fortitude can’t develop enough.
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