Seminaries: Are theological explanations for wandering souls being taught at seminaries?

[Abba]

In this case it does make it true!

Souls going IMMEDIATELY to Hell, Purgatory or Heaven upon death is AN INFALLIBLE TEACHING of the Church.

To disbelief or have an obstinate doubt about this teaching is heresy.

Aside from using capital letters, are you able to site Church documents? You are welcome to join the discussion but, please leave your accusatory aggression at the door.
+++

I will say, as I seek understanding, that Father Fortea writes in the Summa that the demons and souls are where they are but act here and there. So, they are in purgatory or hell but act on earth. He writes that these are states but hell will be a place and heaven as well, after final judgement.

 

[Abba]

CCC:

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he ongs.

It seems, however, that Satan, demons, and condemned souls can ‘act’ from hell as well as souls in purgatory. Interesting.

 

[Vico]

" Can. 9. If anyone says or holds that the punishment of the demons and of impious men is temporary and that it will have an end at some time, "

This is not being said.

" that is to say, there will be a complete restoration of the demons or of impious men, let him be anathema."

This is not being said.

so why did you ignore my comment and only consider the quote?
“Possession mentioned in scripture is by the Devil and demons (fallen angels). Souls in hell are called impious men.”

The quote is to show the use of terms by the Church: demons and impious men.

 

[Vico]

" Can. 9. If anyone says or holds that the punishment of the demons and of impious men is temporary and that it will have an end at some time, "

This is not being said.

" that is to say, there will be a complete restoration of the demons or of impious men, let him be anathema."

This is not being said.

Also consider St.Thomas Aquinas teaching against the idea of wandering fallen souls (in favor of restricted souls) in Summa Theologica, Supplement –

Question 70. The quality of the soul after leaving the body, and of the punishment inflicted on it by material fire
Article 3. Whether the separated soul can suffer from a bodily fire?

In another way as the mover is united to the things moved, or as a thing placed is united to place, even as incorporeal things are in a place. In this way created incorporeal spirits are confined to a place, being in one place in such a way as not to be in another. Now although of its nature a corporeal thing is able to confine an incorporeal spirit to a place, it is not able of its nature to detain an incorporeal spirit in the place to which it is confined, and so to tie it to that place that it be unable to seek another, since a spirit is not by nature in a place so as to be subject to place. But the corporeal fire is enabled as the instrument of the vengeance of Divine justice thus to detain a spirit; and thus it has a penal effect on it, by hindering it from fulfilling its own will, that is by hindering it from acting where it will and as it will.

newadvent.org/summa/5070.htm

 

[Abba]

so why did you ignore my comment and only consider the quote?
“Possession mentioned in scripture is by the Devil and demons (fallen angels). Souls in hell are called impious men.”

The quote is to show the use of terms by the Church: demons and impious men.

I am not ignoring anything.

You want to emphasize that souls in hell are also called ‘impious men’ - and what is your point?

 

[Vico]

I am not ignoring anything.

You want to emphasize that souls in hell are also called ‘impious men’ - and what is your point?

Possession mentioned in scripture is by the Devil and demons (fallen angels).

 

[Abba]

Possession mentioned in scripture is by the Devil and demons (fallen angels).

That is correct.

And?

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Also consider St.Thomas Aquinas teaching against the idea of wandering fallen souls (in favor of restricted souls) in Summa Theologica, Supplement –

Question 70. The quality of the soul after leaving the body, and of the punishment inflicted on it by material fire
Article 3. Whether the separated soul can suffer from a bodily fire?

In another way as the mover is united to the things moved, or as a thing placed is united to place, even as incorporeal things are in a place. In this way created incorporeal spirits are confined to a place, being in one place in such a way as not to be in another. Now although of its nature a corporeal thing is able to confine an incorporeal spirit to a place, it is not able of its nature to detain an incorporeal spirit in the place to which it is confined, and so to tie it to that place that it be unable to seek another, since a spirit is not by nature in a place so as to be subject to place. But the corporeal fire is enabled as the instrument of the vengeance of Divine justice thus to detain a spirit; and thus it has a penal effect on it, by hindering it from fulfilling its own will, that is by hindering it from acting where it will and as it will.

newadvent.org/summa/5070.htm

I would think that this ^ would be subject to the ST Supplement’s Q. 69 A. 3:

“Nevertheless, according to the disposition of Divine providence separated souls sometimes come forth from their abode and appear to men, as Augustine, in the book quoted above, relates of the martyr Felix who appeared visibly to the people of Nola when they were besieged by the barbarians. It is also credible that this may occur sometimes to the damned, and that for man’s instruction and intimidation they be permitted to appear to the living; or again in order to seek our suffrages, as to those who are detained in purgatory, as evidenced by many instances related in the fourth book of the Dialogues.”
newadvent.org/summa/5069.htm

I thought the following was interesting, from Fr. Eureneuer’s book:

Exorcism and the Church Militant
Pages 105-106
“Whether damned souls can actually possess living persons is an open question still debated even by experienced exorcists, but the classical view is against the idea. Notwithstanding what was mentioned above about “separated souls”, it is hard to see how a damned human soul would be released from hell to independently possess or haunt another human being. This is first of all based upon the biblical image of the “chasm between us and you” of the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. A damned soul would not have the spiritual power over nature to return to torment humans as a demon would and, being separated from the body, would not likely be able to manifest itself in the world with any great power that would be needed for an actual possession. If a damned soul were somehow “attached” to a demon roaming the world, such a soul would be entirely controlled by the stronger demon and theoretically participate vicariously in the demon’s haunting, harassing, frightening or possession of the living human person but not be able to do those same activities on its own. This however, is pure speculation and is not defined doctrinally. Biblically and theologically, it is most accurate to presume that damned human souls do not possess or torment other human beings.”

 

[Vico]

I would think that this ^ would be subject to the ST Supplement’s Q. 69 A. 3:

“Nevertheless, according to the disposition of Divine providence separated souls sometimes come forth from their abode and appear to men, as Augustine, in the book quoted above, relates of the martyr Felix who appeared visibly to the people of Nola when they were besieged by the barbarians. It is also credible that this may occur sometimes to the damned, and that for man’s instruction and intimidation they be permitted to appear to the living; or again in order to seek our suffrages, as to those who are detained in purgatory, as evidenced by many instances related in the fourth book of the Dialogues.”
newadvent.org/summa/5069.htm

I thought the following was interesting, from Fr. Eureneuer’s book:

Exorcism and the Church Militant
Pages 105-106
“Whether damned souls can actually possess living persons is an open question still debated even by experienced exorcists, but the classical view is against the idea. Notwithstanding what was mentioned above about “separated souls”, it is hard to see how a damned human soul would be released from hell to independently possess or haunt another human being. This is first of all based upon the biblical image of the “chasm between us and you” of the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. A damned soul would not have the spiritual power over nature to return to torment humans as a demon would and, being separated from the body, would not likely be able to manifest itself in the world with any great power that would be needed for an actual possession. If a damned soul were somehow “attached” to a demon roaming the world, such a soul would be entirely controlled by the stronger demon and theoretically participate vicariously in the demon’s haunting, harassing, frightening or possession of the living human person but not be able to do those same activities on its own. This however, is pure speculation and is not defined doctrinally. Biblically and theologically, it is most accurate to presume that damned human souls do not possess or torment other human beings.”

Sure, and as it was said that: “There is, however, this difference between the saints and the damned, that the saints can appear when they will to the living, but not the damned; …” So it is consistent that the damned human souls would not take possession like demons.

 

[Vico]

That is correct.

And?

It is not spoken of by impious men that have died.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Sure, and as it was said that: “There is, however, this difference between the saints and the damned, that the saints can appear when they will to the living, but not the damned; …” So it is consistent that the damned human souls would not take possession like demons.

I guess there is a consensus among Catholic exorcists and theologians that a damned human soul cannot possess a person on their own, whether the damned have been invited to do so or not. But, it seems the jury is still out as to whether or not the damned human soul can be taken along by a demon into another person’s mortal body. Hasn’t the damned given their soul to the devil when they rejected Love in favor of self. They have chosen to be a slave of Satan instead of a slave of Christ.

I, and, I think the original poster, are talking about possession, not just appearances to people…appearances which Thomas and others argue is subject to the disposition of Divine providence.

 

[Abba]

From the Summa Theologica of Saint Thomas Aquinas:

Article 3. Whether the souls who are in heaven or hell are able to go from thence?

Objection 1. It would seem that the souls in heaven or hell are unable to go from thence. For Augustine says (De Cura pro Mort. xiii): “If the souls of the dead took any part in the affairs of the living, to say nothing of others, there is myself whom not for a single night would my loving mother fail to visit since she followed me by land and sea in order to abide with me”: and from this he concludes that the souls of the departed do not mingle in the affairs of the living. But they would be able to do so if they were to leave their abode. Therefore they do not go forth from their abode.

Objection 2. Further, it is written (Psalm 26:4): “That I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life,” and (Job 7:9): “He that shall go down to hell shall not come up.” Therefore neither the good nor the wicked quit their abode.

Objection 3. Further, as stated above (Article 2), abodes are awarded to souls after death as a reward or punishment. Now after death neither the rewards of the saints nor the punishments of the damned are increased. Therefore they do not quit their abodes.

On the contrary, Jerome writing against Vigilantius addresses him thus: “For thou sayest that the souls of the apostles and martyrs have taken up their abode either in Abraham’s bosom or in the place of refreshment, or under the altar of God, and that they are unable to visit their graves when they will. Wouldst thou then lay down the law for God? Wouldst thou put the apostles in chains, imprison them until the day of judgment, and forbid them to be with their lord, them of whom it is written: They follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth? And if the Lamb is everywhere, therefore we must believe that those also who are with Him are everywhere.” Therefore it is absurd to say that the souls of the departed do not leave their abode.

Further, Jerome argues as follows: “Since the devil and the demons wander throughout the whole world, and are everywhere present with wondrous speed, why should the martyrs, after shedding their blood be imprisoned and unable to go forth?” Hence we may infer that not only the good sometimes leave their abode, but also the wicked, since their damnation does not exceed that of the demons who wander about everywhere.

Further, the same conclusion may be gathered from Gregory (Dial. iv), where he relates many cases of the dead having appeared to the living.

I answer that, There are two ways of understanding a person to leave hell or heaven. First, that he goes from thence simply, so that heaven or hell be no longer his place: and in this way no one who is finally consigned to hell or heaven can go from thence, as we shall state further on (Supplement:71:5 ad 5). Secondly, they may be understood to go forth for a time: and here we must distinguish what befits them according to the order of nature, and what according to the order of Divine providence; for as Augustine says (De Cura pro Mort. xvi): “Human affairs have their limits other than have the wonders of the Divine power, nature’s works differ from those which are done miraculously.” Consequently, according to the natural course, the separated souls consigned to their respective abodes are utterly cut off from communication with the living. For according to the course of nature men living in mortal bodies are not immediately united to separate substances, since their entire knowledge arises from the senses: nor would it be fitting for them to leave their abode for any purpose other than to take part in the affairs of the living. Nevertheless, according to the disposition of Divine providence separated souls sometimes come forth from their abode and appear to men, as Augustine, in the book quoted above, relates of the martyr Felix who appeared visibly to the people of Nola when they were besieged by the barbarians. It is also credible that this may occur sometimes to the damned, and that for man’s instruction and intimidation they be permitted to appear to the living; or again in order to seek our suffrages, as to those who are detained in purgatory, as evidenced by many instances related in the fourth book of the Dialogues. There is, however, this difference between the saints and the damned, that the saints can appear when they will to the living, but not the damned; for even as the saints while living in the flesh are able by the gifts of gratuitous grace to heal and work wonders, which can only be done miraculously by the Divine power, and cannot be done by those who lack this gift, so it is not unfitting for the souls of the saints to be endowed with a power in virtue of their glory, so that they are able to appear wondrously to the living, when they will: while others are unable to do so unless they be sometimes permitted.

Continues…

 

[Abba]

Reply to Objection 1. Augustine, as may be gathered from what he says afterwards, is speaking according to the common course of nature, And yet it does not follow, although the dead be able to appear to the living as they will, that they appear as often as when living in the flesh: because when they are separated from the flesh, they are either wholly conformed to the divine will, so that they may do nothing but what they see to be agreeable with the Divine disposition, or else they are so overwhelmed by their punishments that their grief for their unhappiness surpasses their desire to appear to others.

Reply to Objection 2.** The authorities quoted speak in the sense that no one comes forth from heaven or hell simply, and do not imply that one may not come forth for a time.**

Reply to Objection 3. As stated above (Article 1, Reply to Objection 3) the soul’s place conduces to its punishment or reward in so far as the soul, through being consigned to that place, is affected either by joy or by grief. Now this joy or grief at being consigned to such a place remains in the soul even when it is outside that place. Thus a bishop who is given the honor of sitting on a throne in the church incurs no dishonor when he leaves the throne, for though he sits not therein actually, the place remains assigned to him.

We must also reply to the arguments in the contrary sense.

Reply to Objection 4. Jerome is speaking of the apostles and martyrs in reference to that which they gain from their power of glory, and not to that which befits them as due to them by nature. And when he says that they are everywhere, he does not mean that they are in several places or everywhere at once, but that they can be wherever they will.

Reply to Objection 5. There is no parity between demons and angels on the one hand and the souls of the saints and of the damned on the other. For the good or bad angels have allotted to them the office of presiding over men, to watch over them or to try them; but this cannot be said of the souls of men. Nevertheless, according to the power of glory, it is competent to the souls of the saints that they can be where they will; and this is what Jerome means to say.

Reply to Objection 6.** Although the souls of the saints or of the damned are sometimes actually present where they appear, we are not to believe that this is always so: for sometimes these apparitions occur to persons whether asleep or awake by the activity of good or wicked angels in order to instruct or deceive the living.** Thus sometimes even the living appear to others and tell them many things in their sleep; and yet it is clear that they are not present, as Augustine proves from many instances (De Cura pro Mort. xi, xii).

 

[Abba]

I guess there is a consensus among Catholic exorcists and theologians that a damned human soul cannot possess a person on their own, whether the damned have been invited to do so or not. But, it seems the jury is still out as to whether or not the damned human soul can be taken along by a demon into another person’s mortal body. Hasn’t the damned given their soul to the devil when they rejected Love in favor of self. They have chosen to be a slave of Satan instead of a slave of Christ.

I, and, I think the original poster, are talking about possession, not just appearances to people…appearances which Thomas and others argue is subject to the disposition of Divine providence.

Well, I don’t know how it is done, I can only speculate. What I can say is that I have certainly witnessed the possession from a human soul. I would say that the souls I encountered possessing a living person were not nice and I would say they were from hell. How they get to roam the earth and possess people? I don’t know. Maybe, they have earned the opportunity to leave hell and Satan allows them. From the encounter I would say that even when those people were living they were in hell, as I sensed a lack of love, coldness, malice and callousness.

In the Summa Daemoniaca, Padre Fortea writes in Question 115 that when asked they do not deny that they are human souls. Once an exorcist corners a demon, the demon cannot lie. Yet, when exorcists insist and question the claim that it is a human soul - the soul continues to affirm it.

The souls in purgatory that possess want prayers or something about their possession which is keeping them in the lowest parts of purgatory. They basically want help. The ones from hell, I think, they just want to harm. I wonder where those souls/demons who came to possess the man I witnessed came from. Were they miles away bothering some people? Or, did they come directly from hell when the man called them with his sticks? I don’t know.

 

[Vico]

I guess there is a consensus among Catholic exorcists and theologians that a damned human soul cannot possess a person on their own, whether the damned have been invited to do so or not. But, it seems the jury is still out as to whether or not the damned human soul can be taken along by a demon into another person’s mortal body. Hasn’t the damned given their soul to the devil when they rejected Love in favor of self. They have chosen to be a slave of Satan instead of a slave of Christ.

I, and, I think the original poster, are talking about possession, not just appearances to people…appearances which Thomas and others argue is subject to the disposition of Divine providence.

It is because the damned humans are confined, except for purpose of divine providence, according the St. Thomas Aquinas.

 

[thistle]

CCC:

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity.** Immediately** after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he ongs.

It seems, however, that Satan, demons, and condemned souls can ‘act’ from hell as well as souls in purgatory. Interesting.

The only thing that matters is what the Church teaches and not what individual Church Fathers or theologians opine about.

You already quoted the infallible teaching of the Church which proved you were wrong.

 

[Abba]

The only thing that matters is what the Church teaches and not what individual Church Fathers or theologians opine about.

You already quoted the infallible teaching of the Church which proved you were wrong.

My dear, do you wear a papal robe when you post? Do you know how to participate in a discussion without being aggressive? How do you feel now after posting your post declaring me ‘wrong’? Do you feel like you have won something? Do you feel holier than thou? What is your condition? Does this topic interests you or scares you? Does it challenge you in some way? What is your problem? Do you have an ax to grind with me? To be honest, none of the answers are of interest to me. The topic of this thread interests me. Does it interest you? Can you participate without accusing and posting as if you are Pope Francis posting incognito?

I am not ‘wrong’ and the teachings of the Church are not in contrary to the possibility that the souls from hell and purgatory leave and appear or possess living human beings. Neither is this possibility against biblical teachings. For your information, it is a topic being currently studied by the Church, as stated by the exorcist Carlos Alberto Mancuso who is well known by and has worked with both Pope Benedict and Pope Francis.

You want to say that Saint Thomas Aquinas and everyone else, including me - what an honor to be included with such a bunch - proposing such are wrong.

Can you please check your aggression at the door? Otherwise, please find something else to do.

 

[Vico]

Well, I don’t know how it is done, I can only speculate. What I can say is that I have certainly witnessed the possession from a human soul. I would say that the souls I encountered possessing a living person were not nice and I would say they were from hell. How they get to roam the earth and possess people? I don’t know. Maybe, they have earned the opportunity to leave hell and Satan allows them. From the encounter I would say that even when those people were living they were in hell, as I sensed a lack of love, coldness, malice and callousness.

In the Summa Daemoniaca, Padre Fortea writes in Question 115 that when asked they do not deny that they are human souls. Once an exorcist corners a demon, the demon cannot lie. Yet, when exorcists insist and question the claim that it is a human soul - the soul continues to affirm it.

The souls in purgatory that possess want prayers or something about their possession which is keeping them in the lowest parts of purgatory. They basically want help. The ones from hell, I think, they just want to harm. I wonder where those souls/demons who came to possess the man I witnessed came from. Were they miles away bothering some people? Or, did they come directly from hell when the man called them with his sticks? I don’t know.

Demons are liars.

John 8
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.

 

[TheHolyTrinity]

Seminaries: Are theological explanations for wandering souls being taught at seminaries? Or, are new priests left to respond: “It’s a mystery of the Church” when asked by the faithful Catholic laity?

Many Filipino Catholic’s believe that the souls of the dead still wander for 40 days on earth before going to their final judgement. As Jesus spent 40 days on earth before His resurrection and Ascension into Heaven. Thus a Mass is perform soon after death of a loved one, as Filipino’s there is a believe that the desceased soul will wander and haunt them. 40th day Mass is also performed, this is based on tradition with no Biblical meaning. There is possible strong ties to paganism.

This link may assist in understanding wandering spirits/souls:
catholic-bulletin.blogspot.co.nz/2007/06/40-days-after-death.html

I don’t think the concept of wandering spirits/souls would be taught within seminaries as the Church is quite clear in it’s doctrine’s what happen’s to at death to the soul.

 

[Abba]

Many Filipino Catholic’s believe that the souls of the dead still wander for 40 days on earth before going to their final judgement. As Jesus spent 40 days on earth before His resurrection and Ascension into Heaven. Thus a Mass is perform soon after death of a loved one, as Filipino’s there is a believe that the deceased soul will wander and haunt them. 40th day Mass is also performed, this is based on tradition with no Biblical meaning. There is possible strong ties to paganism.

This Filipino Catholic tradition seems to be influenced from Russian Orthodox belief. I am not familiar so I will pass on this one. I wonder why the priests give the Mass if it is based on a belief that the soul of the dead had not be judge. It is Catholic belief that we have a personal judgement after death and go to hell, purgatory or heaven. I have a hard time believing a priest would do such a thing. If they do, they must do it with another understanding.

In the Dominican Republic, we have a Mass with the body present and we pray for 9 days for the deceased and on the 9th day, we have a Mass. After the Mass, people go and bring the flower from the nine-day prayers to the cemetery and every is off to their home. But, these nine-day prayers and the 9th day Mass is not done with the erroneous belief that the soul is roaming or has not been judged, instead, it is done for the benefit of the soul, so that God will be merciful in judgment. If I am not mistaken, I recall Saint Pope John Paul the Great was given his nine-day Mass at the Vatican. Maybe it is with this understanding that the priests in the Philippine hold that tradition.

This link may assist in understanding wandering spirits/souls:
catholic-bulletin.blogspot.co.nz/2007/06/40-days-after-death.html

In the link, Father John Trigilio is stating what he was taught at the seminary in Harrisburg and Cromwell: “The soul is judged and goes directly to
heaven, hell or purgatory. They do not haunt houses, or walk the earth
as ghosts.” This is incorrect. Of course, I say this with all due respect to him as a priest. I actually use to watch his show and read a Dummies book he put together. Of course, Father Trigilio if he is so inclined, is welcomed to comment. But, I will certainly not debate with a priest.

What I am presenting here is exactly that this is incorrect. There is order in the spirit realm just as there is in the world. It is what it is and making believe one thing does not exist does not make it go away. One can wish the colors of the stars will change to different color that would make the sky look like a Christmas tree; but, that is not the way God designed and so - it is what it is - in season or out of season - whether we like it or not or whether it is ‘rational’ enough for some or not. Within Catholics, I have come to distinguish a bunch that are like the rational atheists. They want things to fit in just right and discard anything that may be too spiritual. They consider themselves the intellectual rational orthodox Catholics. Well, we cannot pick and choose and in the end it was God who left His Church and we cannot paint it as we wish.

I don’t think the concept of wandering spirits/souls would be taught within seminaries as the Church is quite clear in it’s doctrine’s what happen’s to at death to the soul.

This is incorrect. The Church is clear that we are judged when we die and either go to Heaven, Hell or purgatory - period. Let’s stay with the facts. The Church has not, if I may make up my own word - magistrated - on this matter. Perhaps, she will in Vatican III or a Pope will write an encyclical.

Here is a recording of a conference of seminarist and priests and Padre Fortea teaching exactly what I am presenting here. youtube.com/watch?v=ziwuDAqOYR8

Now, this is not to say, certainly, that people should bother the dead. This matter the bible and the Church are clear on. But, if and when they appear we are to pray for them. The laity should be able to recourse to their priests for guidance not be told that there is no such thing or you are tired from having to deal with your loss etc… when the laity knows otherwise.

Peace.