Senior Vatican Advisor wants No Communion for Cuomo

[tskrobacz]

This perspective distorts the issue. It is surely not true that if two politicians or two parties are not perfect then they are equally bad. Beyond that, however, it is not all that difficult to behave morally while in public office; I’m surprised you think otherwise. The Church in fact has very few issues which do not allow prudential choices.
Ender

More important than the moral issue are issues of justice, mercy and faithfulness. You want to make the moral issue the most important yet as Matthew 23:23-24 states:

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

None of our core beliefs are about morality at all. The Creeds are more mystical, cosmological, and about aligning our lives inside of a huge sacred story. When we lose the mystical level, we always become moralistic as a cheap substitute

 

[Roy5]

A few questions

 This matter of interfaith marriage confuses me. So...

 (1) If a baptized Catholic who joins a Protestant church as a young adult, then marries a Protestant - does this mean that her marriage is illegitimate in the eyes of the church? Therefore, their children are illegitimate, etc.?  I know a minister whose wife was a former Catholic and they occassionaly have joked that 'they are living in sin' in the eyes of the Catholic Church? True or false?

 (2) If a Catholic who was baptized Catholic as an infant marries a Protestant in a Protestant ceremony and they are divorced, does that first marriage count in the eyes of the church? In other words, does the person who was baptized Catholic have to get an annulment before remarrying in the Catholic Church? If not, what if anything is required before the Catholic can remarry? What if she remarries another Protestant?

 (3) What are the rules these days re best men and maids of honor? Do either or both have to be Catholic for a priest to officiate?

 (4) If a married couple practice artificial birth control and refuse to stop, even though warned that they must by a priest at confession, are they automatically excommunicated and should not go forward to receive communion at Sunday mass?

  (5) What if a young Catholic couple are co-habiting, and continue in that relationship for years? Are they automatically excommunicated and therefore should not go forward to receive communion?

  (6) I have attended weddings in Protestant churches. Three questions. (a) A priest co-officiated in two of them. Is that in accordance with canon law? (b) Hymns were sung and the guests were invited to participate verbally in some of the liturgy.Was it a sin for a Catholics to sing or respond within the ritual? (c) Communion was made available to those who wished to receive it. "Open communion" as one pastor stated it. "All Christians welcome." Some Catholics present participated.  Was this is serious sin to confess or simply a mistake on their part?

  Other questions come to mind, but these will suffice for now.


(2)

 

[ComputerGeek25]

A few questions

 This matter of interfaith marriage confuses me. So...

 (1) If a baptized Catholic who joins a Protestant church as a young adult, then marries a Protestant - does this mean that her marriage is illegitimate in the eyes of the church? Therefore, their children are illegitimate, etc.?  I know a minister whose wife was a former Catholic and they occassionaly have joked that 'they are living in sin' in the eyes of the Catholic Church? True or false?

Illegitamacy is a purely civil term, and I believe historically had to do with property rights.

The church doesn’t use the term and no children are considered “illegitiment.”

I believe the marriage would be invalid because the wife did not get a dispensation.

(2) If a Catholic who was baptized Catholic as an infant marries a Protestant in a Protestant ceremony and they are divorced, does that first marriage count in the eyes of the church? In other words, does the person who was baptized Catholic have to get an annulment before remarrying in the Catholic Church? If not, what if anything is required before the Catholic can remarry? What if she remarries another Protestant?

I believe the first marriage was invalid due to lack of form (married outside of the Church without dispensation). From what I understand, these are easy to obtain. If he/she marries another Protestant, they need to do it properly.

 (3) What are the rules these days re best men and maids of honor? Do either or both have to be Catholic for a priest to officiate?

I don’t think there are any rules as these are generally unnecessary for contracting the sacrament.

Under most circumstances, all that’s required, besides the couple, is two witnesses and a deacon or priest. In rare circumstances where the priest/deacon is not regularly available, that requirement is dropped. This is because the sacrament is between the two people.

 (4) If a married couple practice artificial birth control and refuse to stop, even though warned that they must by a priest at confession, are they automatically excommunicated and should not go forward to receive communion at Sunday mass?

Not excommunicated - I believe there’s only certian things that warrant excommunication. The right term is they are living in mortal sin. I believe Excommunication is just an extention of that (i.e. you had an abortion)

Since they are in mortal sin they should not recieve communion.

  (5) What if a young Catholic couple are co-habiting, and continue in that relationship for years? Are they automatically excommunicated and therefore should not go forward to receive communion?

Same answer as #4.

  (6) I have attended weddings in Protestant churches. Three questions. (a) A priest co-officiated in two of them. Is that in accordance with canon law? (b) Hymns were sung and the guests were invited to participate verbally in some of the liturgy.Was it a sin for a Catholics to sing or respond within the ritual? (c) Communion was made available to those who wished to receive it. "Open communion" as one pastor stated it. "All Christians welcome." Some Catholics present participated.  Was this is serious sin to confess or simply a mistake on their part?

(a) I don’t know the answer to this.
(b) I think hyms were fine but some of the prayers/creeds are a no no
(c) It is grave matter to recieve communion at a non-Catholic church. If someone did not know this, then it would not be a mortal sin, therefore not worth confessing.

 

[pataburd]

None of our core beliefs are about morality at all. The Creeds are more mystical, cosmological, and about aligning our lives inside of a huge sacred story. When we lose the mystical level, we always become moralistic as a cheap substitute

T_,
The last time I checked, Catholics had not been dispensed from obeying the Ten Commandments. Your “take” on what the Church teaches borders on the Gnostic.

May I suggest a careful reading of the CCC? : )

Cordially,
PAB

 

[comrade1789]

If the good Reverend Jim Jones was still around, I would let him serve Cuomo Communion.

 

[Ender]

More important than the moral issue are issues of justice, mercy and faithfulness. You want to make the moral issue the most important yet as Matthew 23:23-24 states:

Does this concept make sense to you? The moral issues are not the most important ones? There are moral issues and there are prudential issues … and the moral ones are not only the most important but the only ones on which the Church has a position. What you are assuming is that issues like immigration, healthcare, and the budget are moral issues - but they aren’t. These issues do not pit those who care against those who don’t, it is simply a disagreement over what approaches will work. What Matthew wrote is not relevant to the solutions to prudential problems.

Ender

 

[tskrobacz]

Does this concept make sense to you? The moral issues are not the most important ones? What you are assuming is that issues like immigration, healthcare, and the budget are moral issues - but they aren’t. . What Matthew wrote is not relevant to the solutions to prudential problems.

Ender

Yes, it makes sense to me that Justice, Mercy and Faithfulness are more important than moral issues. I am not assuming anything about immigration, healthcare or the budget - those are your words. Matthew’s words are entirely relevant to this issue.

 

[Roy5]

One thing still confuses me. I know a woman who was baptized Catholic as a baby. When she was in her early 20s, she became interested in another church (Methodist), joined it, then married another Protestant in her Methodist church.
Now, is it actually true that the Catholic Church requires that this woman get a dispensation from the Catholic Church or she is committing a mortal sin? She was no longer a Catholic. Is this to suggest that a baby baptized Catholic, long before that baby can reason or give his/her assent, is claimed by the church throughout her life even thought she has left Catholicism and become a Protestant?

 

[ComputerGeek25]

One thing still confuses me. I know a woman who was baptized Catholic as a baby. When she was in her early 20s, she became interested in another church (Methodist), joined it, then married another Protestant in her Methodist church.

Now, is it actually true that the Catholic Church requires that this woman get a dispensation from the Catholic Church or she is committing a mortal sin? She was no longer a Catholic. Is this to suggest that a baby baptized Catholic, long before that baby can reason or give his/her assent, is claimed by the church throughout her life even thought she has left Catholicism and become a Protestant?

I think you are still confused as to what mortal sin actually is.

For something to be considered a mortal sin:

1. Grave matter
   2, Knowledge that the act is of grave matter
2. Full consent of the will (i.e. no one is holding a gun to your head, you’re not suffering from a mental illness or mental retardation, addiction, etc.)

One would have to look at items #2 and #3 to consider if this is actually a mortal sin.

In your example, getting married outside of the church without proper permission is definitely grave matter. If this person didn’t know this then it’s not mortal.

However, I believe that baptism leaves a permanent mark on the soul; once you’re baptised Catholic you cannot undo it.

 

[pataburd]

Is this to suggest that a baby baptized Catholic, long before that baby can reason or give his/her assent, is claimed by the church throughout her life even thought she has left Catholicism and become a Protestant?

The Church teaches that the sacrament of Baptism puts an “indelible mark” on the soul, and that even those Christians–“Separated Brethren”–outside the Church who are validly baptized (with water, and with the Trinitarian formula) are actually baptized into the Church.

Your argument questioning Baptism’s validity, based on “age of reason/assent”, is reminiscent of the Anabaptist heresy. This erroneous teaching rejected the validity of infant baptism and required “another baptism” (the basis for the name “Anabaptist”).

When I converted to the True Faith, my baptism while still a member the Assemblies of God was recognized as valid.

 

[Roy5]

It pleases me that the Catholic Church recognizes Protestant baptism. It seems to me that when I was young Protestants who became Catholic underwent another baptism? Is my memory off base? As I have mentioned from time to time, I come from a mixed Catholic-Protestant heritage and always have promoted and prayed for reconciliation and unity - not necessarily union, as I’ve become convinced over the years that there is no ‘true church’, that we all must humbly walk by simple faith rather than sight, as St. Paul wrote.

What seems strange, however, is that a Catholic who is baptized as a baby is still claimed by the Church when he or she becomes an adult and chooses to become a Protestant. Is that reflected in Catholic statistics? Just curious.

 I understand better now why the Reformation didn't go along with 'salvation by works'. I don't subscribe to salvation by faith alone, as I believe that the nature of our lives (our kind deeds and such) plays a major role. However, the idea that Baptism - for example - has some sort of supernatural impact upon us, one that can never be changed by our later decisions - well, this strikes me as unreal.

 I know a person who was baptized secretly in the Catholic Church as the result of his Catholic grandmother when he was a baby. His father and mother both were ardent secularists, opposed to any and all religion, basically atheists. Now, when that child grew up he became an atheist and secularist, too. Are you saying that that adult is somehow still under the Catholic church in some sense? This is turning logic on its head, especially since the Catholic church has excommunicated people for much less.  

Just wondering how far this 'indelible mark' goes. Was Hitler always a Catholic? How about many of those Mafia murderers? And numerous other criminals and gangsters over the centuries who were baptized Catholic but went on to be scoundrels of the most notorious sort.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

It pleases me that the Catholic Church recognizes Protestant baptism. It seems to me that when I was young Protestants who became Catholic underwent another baptism? Is my memory off base? As I have mentioned from time to time, I come from a mixed Catholic-Protestant heritage and always have promoted and prayed for reconciliation and unity - not necessarily union, as I’ve become convinced over the years that there is no ‘true church’, that we all must humbly walk by simple faith rather than sight, as St. Paul wrote.

To answer your question - I believe you want to read up on Comfirmation. Protestant Baptisms can be valid if the proper formula are used.

What seems strange, however, is that a Catholic who is baptized as a baby is still claimed by the Church when he or she becomes an adult and chooses to become a Protestant. Is that reflected in Catholic statistics? Just curious.

Depnds how one runs the stats. There’s lies, damned lies and statistics.

 I understand better now why the Reformation didn't go along with 'salvation by works'. I don't subscribe to salvation by faith alone, as I believe that the nature of our lives (our kind deeds and such) plays a major role. However, the idea that Baptism - for example - has some sort of supernatural impact upon us, one that can never be changed by our later decisions - well, this strikes me as unreal.

 I know a person who was baptized secretly in the Catholic Church as the result of his Catholic grandmother when he was a baby. His father and mother both were ardent secularists, opposed to any and all religion, basically atheists. Now, when that child grew up he became an atheist and secularist, too. Are you saying that that adult is somehow still under the Catholic church in some sense? This is turning logic on its head, especially since the Catholic church has excommunicated people for much less.  

Just wondering how far this 'indelible mark' goes. Was Hitler always a Catholic? How about many of those Mafia murderers? And numerous other criminals and gangsters over the centuries who were baptized Catholic but went on to be scoundrels of the most notorious sort.

I think you’re getting caught up in legalese - and you seem confused as to what Mortal Sin and Excommunication are.

The child in your example would be considered “Catholic” but has not been exposed to the faith. But, as I stated earlier, the rules for mortal sin apply.

The Church excommunicates people because they have committed a serious sin. In some cases, people have been asked to stop and repent privately before they are excommunicated. But, in any ways, the Church always offers forgiveness to to those who have been excommunicated.

Hitler was in a legal sense Catholic, but his actions obviously did not make him Catholic - as in he was not acting on behalf or endorsement of the Church.

A bad analogy - Legally Hitler was Austrian/German but most Austrians/Germans would like to forget about that dark time in their history and he did not represent all German people past or present.

 

[Robert_Bay]

Please stay on the topic of the original post

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Please stay on the topic of the original post

Thanks for the reminder, Robert…

Roy5 - if you have further questions - let us start another thread or contact me privately

 

[RobbyS]

It pleases me that the Catholic Church recognizes Protestant baptism. It seems to me that when I was young Protestants who became Catholic underwent another baptism? Is my memory off base? As I have mentioned from time to time, I come from a mixed Catholic-Protestant heritage and always have promoted and prayed for reconciliation and unity - not necessarily union, as I’ve become convinced over the years that there is no ‘true church’, that we all must humbly walk by simple faith rather than sight, as St. Paul wrote.

What seems strange, however, is that a Catholic who is baptized as a baby is still claimed by the Church when he or she becomes an adult and chooses to become a Protestant. Is that reflected in Catholic statistics? Just curious.

 I understand better now why the Reformation didn't go along with 'salvation by works'. I don't subscribe to salvation by faith alone, as I believe that the nature of our lives (our kind deeds and such) plays a major role. However, the idea that Baptism - for example - has some sort of supernatural impact upon us, one that can never be changed by our later decisions - well, this strikes me as unreal.

 I know a person who was baptized secretly in the Catholic Church as the result of his Catholic grandmother when he was a baby. His father and mother both were ardent secularists, opposed to any and all religion, basically atheists. Now, when that child grew up he became an atheist and secularist, too. Are you saying that that adult is somehow still under the Catholic church in some sense? This is turning logic on its head, especially since the Catholic church has excommunicated people for much less.  

Just wondering how far this 'indelible mark' goes. Was Hitler always a Catholic? How about many of those Mafia murderers? And numerous other criminals and gangsters over the centuries who were baptized Catholic but went on to be scoundrels of the most notorious sort.

I think the Church discourages the baptism of infants who are going to be raised by adults who are unbelievers. Baptism is a reception into a faithful community where the sacraments are respected and are readily availble. That said, there is no doubt in my mind that the sacrament has a supernatural effect. The instance of Hitler is instructive. As evil a man as Hitler was, he was never as throughgoing an atheist as Stalin was. Both men were baptized Christian. Stalin even attended a seminary, but adjured the faith completely. Hitler apostasized after he left home and his believing mother. Each man chose to walk away. In Hitler’s case, he seems as a young teenager to have been influenced by Pan-Germanism, that romantic tripe that idealized German paganism. As a national leader he did not subscribe to this stuff, and in private talks with Church leaders gulled them into thinking that he supported the Christian cultural mission and their protector asginst Bolshevism. He even promised Protestant leaders that he would make Protestantism the national Church, ala, England. But after the war started he seems to have more and more dismissed Christianity. In his last hour marriage with Eva Braun, there was no religious minister. I think Ian Kershaw is the best guide to Hitler’s thoughts on religious as well as other matters.