Sensitive Question about marital act -adults only

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I just want to say (I haven’t read all the posts so I don’t know if it has been said or not) that obviously he abused you before. What you describe was rape. He raped you husband or not. THAT is not for you to get over. That is HIS job to make you feel comfortable again. Until he does that you will never be comfortable. Again and I say this with the utmost respect for your marriage. You have forgiven him, HOWEVER it is HIS job to make you feel comfortable again. Counseling will help you deal with the “hows” but if he can’t realize that and just wants you to get comfortable because he feels like a new person that’s just silly. That’s not the way humans work. This kind of thing will take lots of time and patience and he has to realize that in order for it to work.

I’m sorry you ever had to go through that. I pray that he will take every necessary step to show you that he is willing to be cautious and gentle with you. Prayers for you.
 
I took a peek at Grisez’ book. It is enormously helpful. Thank you.

From my cursory reading of pertinent sections, it appears that many, if not most, of the sexual encounters between my husband and I pre-conversion, and still many since conversion, have failed to be the marital act. This would explain why things are so broken between us.

It is going to be very difficult to talk to anyone about this. After all, I am such a private person that I couldn’t use my normal anonymous screen name for this question. But it seems like counseling is a necessity.

My husband has not attempted to contact me today to see if I am okay. That fact, in and of itself, is enough to prove to me that he is angry and hurt and that I am going to be facing a reckoning tonight when the kids are asleep. I am dreading it.
 
suzyq_psu said:
I just want to say (I haven’t read all the posts so I don’t know if it has been said or not) that obviously he abused you before. What you describe was rape. He raped you husband or not. THAT is not for you to get over. That is HIS job to make you feel comfortable again. Until he does that you will never be comfortable. Again and I say this with the utmost respect for your marriage. You have forgiven him, HOWEVER it is HIS job to make you feel comfortable again. Counseling will help you deal with the “hows” but if he can’t realize that and just wants you to get comfortable because he feels like a new person that’s just silly. That’s not the way humans work. This kind of thing will take lots of time and patience and he has to realize that in order for it to work.

I’m sorry you ever had to go through that. I pray that he will take every necessary step to show you that he is willing to be cautious and gentle with you. Prayers for you.
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👍
 
suzyq_psu said:
I just want to say (I haven’t read all the posts so I don’t know if it has been said or not) that obviously he abused you before. What you describe was rape. He raped you husband or not. THAT is not for you to get over. That is HIS job to make you feel comfortable again. Until he does that you will never be comfortable. Again and I say this with the utmost respect for your marriage. You have forgiven him, HOWEVER it is HIS job to make you feel comfortable again. Counseling will help you deal with the “hows” but if he can’t realize that and just wants you to get comfortable because he feels like a new person that’s just silly. That’s not the way humans work. This kind of thing will take lots of time and patience and he has to realize that in order for it to work.

I’m sorry you ever had to go through that. I pray that he will take every necessary step to show you that he is willing to be cautious and gentle with you. Prayers for you.
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It felt like rape, because he was punishing me because I was not being responsive enough. But we were already having intercourse on those occasions, but it hurt and I couldn’t maintain arousal. I told him so, and he got mad, and pushed really hard and fast several more times before withdrawing. Still today, my memory of those times has me crossing my legs and shaking. I felt then, and feel now, so dirty and ugly about my private parts.

But I cannot tell him that is what his actions felt like. 😦

Also, still to this day, despite his obvious interest, I will not allow him to kiss me down there. I feel so disgusting and dirty and ugly (and so obviously unlike the appearance of the porn stars) that I don’t want him to see me there or kiss me there.
Plus, for obvious reasons, I have a hard time allowing for my own pleasure. I anticipate his boredom or disgust with my body or with how long it takes for me to become aroused, and so I cannot relax. I fear that if I relax and try to feel safe and loved and pleasure, that I will be vulnerable to his anger or impatience when I take too long.
Gosh, I hadn’t realized how really broken inside that I am after all this time. I was faking it so well that I believed my own faked healing.
 
suzyq_psu said:
I just want to say (I haven’t read all the posts so I don’t know if it has been said or not) that obviously he abused you before. What you describe was rape. He raped you husband or not. THAT is not for you to get over. That is HIS job to make you feel comfortable again. Until he does that you will never be comfortable. Again and I say this with the utmost respect for your marriage. You have forgiven him, HOWEVER it is HIS job to make you feel comfortable again. Counseling will help you deal with the “hows” but if he can’t realize that and just wants you to get comfortable because he feels like a new person that’s just silly. That’s not the way humans work. This kind of thing will take lots of time and patience and he has to realize that in order for it to work.

I’m sorry you ever had to go through that. I pray that he will take every necessary step to show you that he is willing to be cautious and gentle with you. Prayers for you.
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This was my sense as well. OP, I am so sorry for your suffering. Your statement,
It is going to be very difficult to talk to anyone about this. After all, I am such a private person that I couldn’t use my normal anonymous screen name for this question. But it seems like counseling is a necessity.
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gives me the sense that you have the courage it will take to seek the counseling that you need. He needs it too, and I would say even more that you need him to have it. But start where you can start. I will pray for you, especially for tonight.

sdf
 
Debora123 said:
Why not? You should tell him. You need to tell him and talk to him about it openly.
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Maybe I should say I am afraid of telling him. I am afraid of the reproach I will see in his face for telling him the truth. Plus, I dont think he will agree with me at all about the nature of his actions against me. I know from past experience with attempting such conversations that he will believe I am exaggerating for drama sake. Or that I am trying to heap all the blame on him without accepting responsibility for my own actions. So, naturally, I am afraid, and so I misspoke when I said I can’t tell him.
 
hurtingwife said:
Maybe I should say I am afraid of telling him. I am afraid of the reproach I will see in his face for telling him the truth. Plus, I dont think he will agree with me at all about the nature of his actions against me. I know from past experience with attempting such conversations that he will believe I am exaggerating for drama sake. Or that I am trying to heap all the blame on him without accepting responsibility for my own actions. So, naturally, I am afraid, and so I misspoke when I said I can’t tell him.
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Also, what could I say? What words could I use to communicate to him?
If I was as blunt and open as I have been today…😦

What am I gonna say to my husband?
You raped me?
You coerced and manipulated me?
You injured me repeatedly?
You made me feel like I am worth nothing more than a tissue?

Because those things are true, but those statements are also inflammatory.
Am I going to tell him that it is going to take years to repair this, and he is going to have to work hard to make me feel safe with him. After all, it was over a decade of horrible relations. It has been only two years since I finally said we are broken and he needed to get help for PE and needed to allow me time to heal before expecting eagerness from me. And he has still not addressed his issues.

I know my questions here are straightforward, but I mean no offense. I ask all this in earnest. How do I tell him what I need to tell him?
 
I believe he needs to man up and take some responsibility for how his actions have long lasting consequences. He needs to recognise the emotional damage his actions have caused and make an effort.
A marriage is meant to be two people joined as one. I feel that you need to sit him down and explain everything to him. Tell him exactly what you are going through emotionally and physically. If he is any kind of man he will not want to have his action make you feel that way. Then after you have told him everything, you both need to work out together how to proceed.
If you need more time to be ready for sex, then that is what you need, and frankly, I believe most women need more time. This give your husband an opportunity to show you love.
Don’t feel ashamed to ask to be treated with love and respect.
I think it’s a good idea to speak to a counsellor about how you are feeling and recovering, but your husband really needs to know. He is responsible for his actions and actions have consequences.
It sounds like this is going to be tough for you to do, but your marriage needs it. You can be open and honest while still being respectful, but he really needs a chance to pull his weight so to speak.
And don’t stop until you have said everything that you need to say.

I’m in a different time zone to you so not sure if he is home yet, but I’ve prayed that the two of you with Gods help will be able to confront this issue and tackle it together.

Take care.
 
hurtingwife said:
Also, what could I say? What words could I use to communicate to him?
If I was as blunt and open as I have been today…😦

What am I gonna say to my husband?
You raped me?
You coerced and manipulated me?
You injured me repeatedly?
You made me feel like I am worth nothing more than a tissue?

Because those things are true, but those statements are also inflammatory.
Am I going to tell him that it is going to take years to repair this, and he is going to have to work hard to make me feel safe with him. After all, it was over a decade of horrible relations. It has been only two years since I finally said we are broken and he needed to get help for PE and needed to allow me time to heal before expecting eagerness from me. And he has still not addressed his issues.

I know my questions here are straightforward, but I mean no offense. I ask all this in earnest. How do I tell him what I need to tell him?
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Maybe try I statements.
I felt coerced and manipulated
I felt I was worth nothing more than a tissue
For example?
Others will have better suggestions that I will.
But yes, tell him it will take time to repair it, but you need to work together to find a solution, which means while he works hard at his stuff with you, you need to work hard at being open and honest with him.
Tell him you need time to heal. Sex is not just about his release, he needs to put some effort into loving you.
Talk to him about what he thinks Gods view on sex is? And what sort of things you can do together to achieve that.

Maybe something I’ve posted will be useful for you, it takes strength and courage to be married, and to live the way God intended. Ask Him to guide your heart, and to soften your husbands so that he is receptive.
And please, it is NOT YOUR FAULT.
 
If I am understanding you correctly, your dh has never really taken responsibility for doing those things (raping, coercing, injuring, etc.). I don’t think you are going to convince him in one night to suddenly do that. So whether you use all of those terms would depend on how you have spoken about it before. Personally, I would be inclined to focus more on last night, than on the past - at least to start. I would want to make the following point:
“Hubby, I understand that you and I don’t see eye to eye on how things went down in the past. I understand that you think that I may be over-reacting, etc… But I am telling you what happened to me last night. Last night, my body (describe what you told us about what happened last night). However you choose to describe what happened in the past, what happened last night makes it obvious that I am not OVER it. This is very serious to me, and I want things to be better. I want to have a normal loving sex life with you. But I can’t right now, and while I am going to seek counseling, I can’t do it on my own. You have to be a part of things getting better between us, because you were a part of it being so bad.”
 
ThyKingdomCome said:
If I am understanding you correctly, your dh has never really taken responsibility for doing those things (raping, coercing, injuring, etc.). I don’t think you are going to convince him in one night to suddenly do that. So whether you use all of those terms would depend on how you have spoken about it before. Personally, I would be inclined to focus more on last night, than on the past - at least to start. I would want to make the following point:
“Hubby, I understand that you and I don’t see eye to eye on how things went down in the past. I understand that you think that I may be over-reacting, etc… But I am telling you what happened to me last night. Last night, my body (describe what you told us about what happened last night). However you choose to describe what happened in the past, what happened last night makes it obvious that I am not OVER it. This is very serious to me, and I want things to be better. I want to have a normal loving sex life with you. But I can’t right now, and while I am going to seek counseling, I can’t do it on my own. You have to be a part of things getting better between us, because you were a part of it being so bad.”
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And I knew that someone could do that better than me!
👍
 
hurtingwife said:
Also, what could I say? What words could I use to communicate to him?
If I was as blunt and open as I have been today…😦

What am I gonna say to my husband?
You raped me?
You coerced and manipulated me?
You injured me repeatedly?
You made me feel like I am worth nothing more than a tissue?

Because those things are true, but those statements are also inflammatory.
Am I going to tell him that it is going to take years to repair this, and he is going to have to work hard to make me feel safe with him. After all, it was over a decade of horrible relations. It has been only two years since I finally said we are broken and he needed to get help for PE and needed to allow me time to heal before expecting eagerness from me. And he has still not addressed his issues.

I know my questions here are straightforward, but I mean no offense. I ask all this in earnest. How do I tell him what I need to tell him?
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First of all, try not to use “you” statements (like you did above). Use “I” statements. “I feel this way, when this happens, because this.” This way, instead of putting the blame on him, you are simply telling him how you feel, when you feel that way, and why you feel that way.

Don’t come off as aggressive or angry. Be calm. Tell him you need to talk to him about something, and schedule a time with him when you can both sit down and have a serious conversation without distractions. Hopefully a time when neither one of you is tired, stressed, or hungry.

Be reassuring. Make sure he understands that you love him so much and that you want your relationship to be better. And that is why you want to talk to him and make sure he knows how you feel, and you want to know how he feels too. Tell him you want so much to be a great wife to him, and that he can help you do that by… (and then tell him some of the things you need from him).

Basically just be very gentle and tactful in the way you talk to him. Instead of saying “you raped me,” start off by saying something like “I still feel very broken from the nature of our sex life before our conversion, and I am still trying to heal from all the sinful things we did… I was in such a bad place, I felt like a lot of times our sexual relations were forced when they should have been about self giving love.”

Start off really soft like that so that you don’t lose him right away. Eventually (and hopefully in the presence of a counselor) you can express more clearly your sentiments about having felt raped and abused.
 
ThyKingdomCome said:
If I am understanding you correctly, your dh has never really taken responsibility for doing those things (raping, coercing, injuring, etc.). I don’t think you are going to convince him in one night to suddenly do that. So whether you use all of those terms would depend on how you have spoken about it before. Personally, I would be inclined to focus more on last night, than on the past - at least to start. I would want to make the following point:
“Hubby, I understand that you and I don’t see eye to eye on how things went down in the past. I understand that you think that I may be over-reacting, etc… But I am telling you what happened to me last night. Last night, my body (describe what you told us about what happened last night). However you choose to describe what happened in the past, what happened last night makes it obvious that I am not OVER it. This is very serious to me, and I want things to be better. I want to have a normal loving sex life with you. But I can’t right now, and while I am going to seek counseling, I can’t do it on my own. You have to be a part of things getting better between us, because you were a part of it being so bad.”
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This is great! Except maybe I would take out the bolded part. Not because it isn’t true (it is), but because you have to be very very careful not to lose him while you’re still just scratching the surface. A statement like that so early on in the conversation might make him shut down immediately.
 
hurtingwife said:
Also, what could I say? What words could I use to communicate to him?
If I was as blunt and open as I have been today…😦

What am I gonna say to my husband?
You raped me?
You coerced and manipulated me?
You injured me repeatedly?
You made me feel like I am worth nothing more than a tissue?

Because those things are true, but those statements are also inflammatory.
Am I going to tell him that it is going to take years to repair this, and he is going to have to work hard to make me feel safe with him. After all, it was over a decade of horrible relations. It has been only two years since I finally said we are broken and he needed to get help for PE and needed to allow me time to heal before expecting eagerness from me. And he has still not addressed his issues.

I know my questions here are straightforward, but I mean no offense. I ask all this in earnest. How do I tell him what I need to tell him?
Click to expand...
How open has he been before when you would share how you felt about things? How open and receptive to how you feel, especially if how you feel paints a picture of him that is less than ideal? What I’m saying is if he’s easily offended and angered (which appears to be the case), you’re probably not going to get much mileage from telling him that you’re not cool with something he does/says, you’ll either get sulking, silent treatment, or he’ll get downright mean. We are all sinners, but some are clearly better human beings than others. Some are sensitive to others, forgiving, believing the best of everyone, open to new ideas, open to valid criticisms; others are clueless, prideful, cruel, grudgy, insecure, as loving as a frozen rock, lacking empathy.
 
hurtingwife said:
My husband has not attempted to contact me today to see if I am okay. That fact, in and of itself, is enough to prove to me that he is angry and hurt and that I am going to be facing a reckoning tonight when the kids are asleep. I am dreading it.
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You are hurt because of things he did. He doesn’t get to be angry. If he tries to punish you by laying on a guilt trip, stand up for your self. If he doesn’t consider your feelings then you will never have a really joyful marriage, and that isn’t good for either of you.

Don’t be afraid to tell him exactly what the problem is, and how to fix it. Don’t be afraid to require him to make sex pleasant for you - it’s his moral obligation as a Catholic husband. Frame it as asking for his help, most men like to be the rescuer.

The fact that he would want to have sex with an upset, miserable wife shows that his sense of sexuality has been warped and needs to be healed. Ignoring the problem or allowing him to continue using you will only result in more harm. Be patient with him, but don’t be an enabler. Punishing a spouse sexually is a betrayal of trust and a profoundly cruel act, but you forgave him, and that’s a big deal. Not every wife would be so patient and generous.

You shouldn’t be unreasonably angry or vindictive about it, but it’s good to ask for what you need from the man who is supposed to love you as his own flesh.

The good news is that, from what you describe, you have both made significant progress from where you were, but problems as profound as yours take a lot to recover from. Pray for him, and I will be praying for you.
 
Debora123 said:
This is great! Except maybe I would take out the bolded part. Not because it isn’t true (it is), but because you have to be very very careful not to lose him while you’re still just scratching the surface. A statement like that so early on in the conversation might make him shut down immediately.
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You’re right. Either don’t say that part at all, or say, “because you were a part of it getting to this point”
 
So the things I am describing, the overall pattern of behavior my husband exhibited, these are not normal? Unfortunately, one of the reasons why I so readily forgave my husband is because I thought these were normal male behaviors.
After all, my dad told me at about 15 that my husband would expect me to use birth control and that he would want “a lady on the street, and a whore in the bedroom”. And yes, I was raised in a Christian home.
So my husband’s behavior seemed normal, and my Inlaws (also Christian) watched porn and my father-in-law went to strip clubs and massage parlors.

If these behaviors are not the norm for husbands to treat their wives, perhaps I have more reason to confront him than I thought.

Please tell me, do men normally treat their new brides this way? Quickly becoming bored with giving affection, expecting daily sex on demand, ignoring injuries resulting from too frequent or rough sex, skipping foreplay, insisting on watching porn and going to strip clubs, using his body as a weapon to punish, persisting in masturbation despite my requests for him to stop?

If these are not normal, if they are not the ways that normal, healthy men treat their wives, then I need to know that.
 
hurtingwife said:
So the things I am describing, the overall pattern of behavior my husband exhibited, these are not normal? Unfortunately, one of the reasons why I so readily forgave my husband is because I thought these were normal male behaviors.
After all, my dad told me at about 15 that my husband would expect me to use birth control and that he would want “a lady on the street, and a whore in the bedroom”. And yes, I was raised in a Christian home.
So my husband’s behavior seemed normal, and my Inlaws (also Christian) watched porn and my father-in-law went to strip clubs and massage parlors.

If these behaviors are not the norm for husbands to treat their wives, perhaps I have more reason to confront him than I thought.

Please tell me, do men normally treat their new brides this way? Quickly becoming bored with giving affection, expecting daily sex on demand, ignoring injuries resulting from too frequent or rough sex, skipping foreplay, insisting on watching porn and going to strip clubs, using his body as a weapon to punish, persisting in masturbation despite my requests for him to stop?

If these are not normal, if they are not the ways that normal, healthy men treat their wives, then I need to know that.
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:eek: This shouldn’t seem normal to you. None of these are things any husband-- let alone a Christian one-- should do. Most of what you’ve described is abusive at the very least. That’s why so many people have suggested you get help. Your husband sounds like he’s changed a little for the better since both of you converted, but no, this isn’t normal guy behavior. And some of his behavior is still downright scary. (At least going off of what you’ve written so far.)
 
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