Serious doubts about Church teaching on homosexuality

[SMGS127]

Huh? For example…(some examples of how you feel they respond similar to the opposing gender?)

Umm I can try to find the studies, but they were done when I was in high school, a full decade ago .

Edit: FOUND THEM! I won’t have to try to replicate my memory. Here is the study comparing straight men to lesbians…

news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/05/060508_lesbian.html

Here is the study comparing gay men to straight women by the same researchers…

nytimes.com/2005/05/10/science/10smell.html?_r=1&

And here is a newer study corroborating the study done on gay men…

motherboard.vice.com/read/more-evidence-sexuality-is-innate-gay-men-respond-to-male-sex-pheromones

 

[Bookcat]

SMGS claims that this is not an issue. I have no reason to suspect that she is lying, either to herself or to us, though I suppose it’s not impossible.

Yes I understand that such a claim was made. But even if such was not intended as erotic - or for some unusual reason be so – such is *still *not something for two persons of the same sex ever to engage in. One will not find any solid theological defense of such proposal. Such is not the way for “friends” to bond. They bond by doing things together - with common interests, sharing of struggles and joys etc. Not by “making out”.

 

[Kamaduck]

Yes I understand that such a claim was made. **But even if such was not intended as erotic - or for some unusual reason be so – such is *still ***not something for two persons of the same sex ever to engage in. One will not find any solid theological defense of such proposal. Such is not the way for “friends” to bond. They bond by doing things together - with common interests, sharing of struggles and joys etc. Not by “making out”.

If that is true, then SMGS can’t make out with her friends.

But my above post stands, since it’s taking issue with the reasoning that making out must necessarily involve a temptation to go further. According to SMGS, this is not the case.

 

[Bookcat]

If that is true, then SMGS can’t make out with her friends.

.

And it is true…

Just not something to be done.

Nor is one to make out with ones sibling, or cousin, or grandmother or toddler…etc.

 

[Thorns]

And it is true…

Just not something to be done.

Nor is one to make out with ones sibling, or cousin, or grandmother or toddler…etc.

Yes, its just inappropriate.

Lets not forget that placing ones self in the Occasion of Sin, is itself, a sin.

 

[Bookcat]

Yes, its just inappropriate.

Lets not forget that placing ones self in the Occasion of Sin, is itself, a sin.

Placing oneself in an “occasion of sin” per se is not a sin. But yes putting oneself in a *near *occasion of sin can be.

But that aside such simply is not something to be done with persons of the same gender, or ones sibling or ones toddler or ones grandmother etc

 

[SMGS127]

Lets not forget that placing ones self in the Occasion of Sin, is itself, a sin.

It’s not an occasion of sin for me! Ugh.

Listen. I have an extraordinary high degree of self control. I don’t even engage lust when I make out, unless I’m already having sex during it. So I’m not even remotely in a case of occasion of sin.

 

[Bookcat]

Yes, its just inappropriate.

Lets not forget that placing ones self in the Occasion of Sin, is itself, a sin.

Placing oneself in an “occasion of sin” per se is not a sin. But yes putting oneself in a *near *occasion of sin can be.

But that aside such simply is not something to be done with persons of the same gender, or ones sibling or ones toddler or ones grandmother etc Such is already a no go.

(setting aside here the question of sinful making out between boyfriend and girlfriend).

 

[GaryTaylor]

I don’t even engage lust when I make out, unless I’m already having sex during it…

Right it officially becomes lust when your having sex. Not a moment before? Everything is realized only in the moment not a thought before hand.

You don’t get it, the sex comes after the problem, and the problem is in your mind and culminates in the act of sex, you acknowledge this after the fact by your own words above.

But at the same time you would propose you are in complete control of your emotions which isn’t indicated by the above thinking.

.

 

[SMGS127]

Right it officially becomes lust when your having sex. Not a moment before? Everything is realized only in the moment not a thought before hand.

Yes, if I’m having sex, I’m having sex. If I’m doing something else, I’m doing something else. If that’s making out, that’s making out. Whatever happened to just slowing down and enjoying things with one’s girlfriend? Why does everything have to be about sex? Why can’t you just be happy in the moment that she’s smiling and that you’re closer as a team? Why are people so corrupted in the mind sexually?

You don’t get it, the sex comes after the problem, and the problem is in your mind and culminates in the act of sex, you acknowledge this after the fact by your own words above.

No, the sex IS the problem. So no sex, no lusting. Got it, and I won’t do it. I’ve already had a relationship where I had to do that, and it didn’t bother me a single iota. I don’t need sex to take care of someone or to be happy.

But at the same time you would propose you are in complete control of your emotions which isn’t indicated by the above thinking.

Sure it is. Why wouldn’t it be?

 

[Rin]

One point about the romantic friendship thing which has been mentioned in another thread but I’m not sure if it has here:

It was a completely normal part of Christian culture for almost two millennia, before it disappeared. It was actually even blessed by the Church in some places and times. The cultural impulses responsible for its disappearance were especially Puritanism and Pietism, and I suspect Jansenism.

If it was not unthinkable in pre-Puritan Christianity, then I’m sorry, it’s not unthinkable in Catholic teaching. It’s only unthinkable in our cultures. Opinions from moral theologians or even random Saints doesn’t change that - if such a very common thing for nearly two millennia of Catholicism really was morally unthinkable, then some Magisterial teaching will have to be produced. The Magisterium have condemned far less common things. When something is left to theologians to discuss, it means there is room for disagreement.

I think people should remember that there is such room, and that their prohibitions should not be presented as if they were binding on others.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Yes, if I’m having sex, I’m having sex. If I’m doing something else, I’m doing something else. If that’s making out, that’s making out. Whatever happened to just slowing down and enjoying things with one’s girlfriend? Why does everything have to be about sex? Why can’t you just be happy in the moment that she’s smiling and that you’re closer as a team? Why are people so corrupted in the mind sexually?

No, the sex IS the problem. So no sex, no lusting. Got it, and I won’t do it. I’ve already had a relationship where I had to do that, and it didn’t bother me a single iota. I don’t need sex to take care of someone or to be happy.

Sure it is. Why wouldn’t it be?

The answer is balls, you don’t have the balls to be a sex crazed person

(Note, I don’t actually think all men are sex crazed)

 

[SMGS127]

The answer is balls, you don’t have the balls to be a sex crazed person

(Note, I don’t actually think all men are sex crazed)

Well no. Although I thought about it being a gender issue, LongingSoul and One Point have apparently experienced nothing but lust in make out sessions, as well. So it can’t be a gender issue, at least not in its entirety.

 

[LongingSoul]

Well no. Although I thought about it being a gender issue, LongingSoul and One Point have apparently experienced nothing but lust in make out sessions, as well. So it can’t be a gender issue, at least not in its entirety.

Prior to my marriage I cultivated chastity according to my single status because I didn’t want to be tempted to sin sexually. I’ve now been married 26 years and I know myself to not be a sex crazed human being, but I also know that certain touches and ‘making out’ stir desire of the sexual nature me. As my desire for sex increases, my objectivity decreases. This is a common experience to most people who need to practice abstinence according to their state of life.

More often than not in my life, true love of God and other… agape… has meant renouncing my inclination and avoiding its seductive call to be appeased.

If making out and being intimate doesn’t affect your natural call to physical consummation, you are unusual in general terms. Perhaps the abundant sexlife that you said you had before your conversion has coloured your experience of the true nature of sex to that degree? I believe that it is more natural and common in general, to be called into that desire for physical consummation by intimacy, touch and ‘making out’.

 

[SMGS127]

Prior to my marriage I cultivated chastity according to my single status because I didn’t want to be tempted to sin sexually. I’ve now been married 26 years and I know myself to not be a sex crazed human being, but I also know that certain touches and ‘making out’ stir desire of the sexual nature me. As my desire for sex increases, my objectivity decreases. This is a common experience to most people who need to practice abstinence according to their state of life.

More often than not in my life, true love of God and other… agape… has meant renouncing my inclination and avoiding its seductive call to be appeased.

If making out and being intimate doesn’t affect your natural call to physical consummation, you are unusual in general terms. Perhaps the abundant sexlife that you said you had before your conversion has coloured your experience of the true nature of sex to that degree? I believe that it is more natural and common in general, to be called into that desire for physical consummation by intimacy, touch and ‘making out’.

I never said I had an “abundant” sex life. I didn’t do hook-ups or anything. I just was open to sex with girlfriends who wanted to have it, and I was willing to abstain for girls who didn’t want to have it. But I’d already been celibate for about 2 years before I even started joining the Church (mainly because my most recent girlfriend was the one who was uncomfortable with the idea of sex that actually meant something), which was yet another 2 years ago. Sex has just never been necessary for me; it’s phenomenal, don’t get me wrong, and I’d engage in it in a second with future girlfriends if the Church didn’t explicitly bar it, but the most important thing for me is doing what’s best for my girlfriend. Which is also why making out, outside of sex, is pure agape to me. But, again, maybe I am very unique .

 

[DavidPaul723]

So besides the fact that I consider most of your post harmful to gay people (though I’m sure you don’t have that intent), this has got to be the most dangerous advice I’ve ever heard, and arguing any of that is sinful has literally no church support.

You are suggesting that gay people cut off all their friends, deny themselves all of their interests in music/art/culture, etc.You are literally telling people to live as hermits in this world, isolated from anything they remotely enjoy, even if it has nothing to do with the evil of sexual activity. NO ONE should be advised to say goodbye to their gay friends just because they become Catholic. What a ridiculous presumption. Ugh.

Also, there is no such thing as a “homosexual lifestyle.” It is literally the most offensive phrase you can actually use to describe an actively gay person. I know some people don’t care about offending gay people as long as they get to use their own terminology, but hopefully you are not one of them.

If your eye offends you ( hanging out in gay bars) “cut it out”. If your hand offends you ( performing the act of homosexuality) “cut it off” for it is better that you lose an eye then have your whole body be cast into hell. (These are Jesus’s words , i echo them).Are you willfully conforming to “worldly ways” Jesus warns us about? When the world says "show of hands " …is gay ok? Will you raise your hand and deny Christ?Problem is there are too many “but” Christians out there . I’m Christian but i think a women can do what she wants with her body…or… I’m Christian and actively gay and I’m not hurting anybody, God understands me even though I know he says its wrong as he speaks through the magisterium of his Holy Catholic Church. God calls everyone to mass. Even ppl with same sex attraction, compulsive disorders, secularist , liberals and conservatives, new age folks etc …etc…etc TO Holiness. The young lady should invite her gay friends to mass for healing and therapy. And, refuse to attend a gay parade, gay wedding, gay bar, watch gay movies,gay resort for vacation. If you are Catholic or a Protestant , you should be encouraging her to do the same. FYI: She said she “is” catholic … If I recall she has been making an honest effort to change her behavior. She is looking for help for she does not want to fall into sin. If we "love one another as Jesus taught us, then we would never encourage immorality even in the slightest on anyone.

 

[LongingSoul]

But, again, maybe I am very unique .

It isn’t a normal response to ‘making out’ and my 20 year old daughter has agreed with that as per young people in general. As such, it really isn’t relevant to the Churchs guidelines to the faithful who struggle with being chaste naturally.

 

[SMGS127]

It isn’t a normal response to ‘making out’ and my 20 year old daughter has agreed with that as per young people in general. As such, it really isn’t relevant to the Churchs guidelines to the faithful who struggle with being chaste naturally.

But is that an issue with the act itself (“an abnormal response”) or with the erotic culture we live in (“a normal response in a fallen world”)?

If I could help people discover that secondary type of kissing, I think it would improve many relationships. I’m very sad that most people never experience it .

 

[LongingSoul]

But is that an issue with the act itself (“an abnormal response”) or with the erotic culture we live in (“a normal response in a fallen world”)?

If I could help people discover that secondary type of kissing, I think it would improve many relationships. I’m very sad that most people never experience it .

Todays world is not a uniquely ‘fallen world’. Time and tide have seen cultures rise to virtue and fall into depravity over and over. That is why the Church has right to teach from generation to generation with apostolic authority. Each unique age has its unique challenges. We don’t say well I think this was done in the past based on some of the literature so we should do it today. We look to the Church to guide our views and keep our souls firmly on the path of salvation.

Trying to teach people to french kiss without becoming physically and emotionally aroused by natural god given desires is a scam. If that were true, people wouldn’t be susceptible to grooming and seduction. Nature is nature and has been since people started walking this earth.

There is suffering for those afflicted with this objectively disordered inclination but thankfully through Gods grace,there is much comfort and joy in living chastely and looking to God and the disinterested friendship of others to fulfill our need for relationship. I haven’t got anything more to say on the subject for the time being.

 

[Mark121359]

Yes, its just inappropriate.

Lets not forget that placing ones self in the Occasion of Sin, is itself, a sin.

It’s not an occasion of sin for me! Ugh.

***Listen. I have an extraordinary high degree of self control. I don’t even engage lust when I make out, unless I’m already having sex during it. *** So I’m not even remotely in a case of occasion of sin.

Maybe for you this is true, and maybe not. People have different tolerance levels for heat, for cold, for pain and a great many of things. What if someone else who’s reading this thread who has homosexual leanings doesn’t have your level of self control as you claim you have? Then what? You, who are pushing so hard this bull theory of yours, may in fact be leading someone to fall into sin! Did you ever stop and think about that? How many people reading this are lurkers, who are not members here, and decide to put your “theory” into practice, but find they simply just can’t stop after “making out” and “cuddling” like you claim that you can do? You’ll be responsible in a tangible way. I mentioned to you in an earlier post that one of the priests in the Apologetics section here would make quick work here of dismissing your “theories” but you ignored it. Someone else suggested a few pages back about talking to a priest and you brushed that aside as well. You suggested that you have it all figured out. How long have you been Catholic? And you’ve got it all figured out? I’ve been Catholic my whole life and still haven’t got it all figured out. SMGS127, don’t misinterpret my post here. This is not at all a judgment on you, as some have suggested here. Rather, I’m very, very concerned for those who may take your suggestions and run with them. And how this can put their very soul in serious, serious jeopardy. These “experiments” of yours are dangerous. I think this thread should be shut down and deleted!

Peace, Mark