Serious doubts about Church teaching on homosexuality

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  • Because identical twins develop from a single fertilized egg, they have the same genome. So any differences between twins are due to their environments, not genetics.*
learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/epigenetics/twins/
Ender
Just to follow up on this post (from the same source)…To illustrate, for twins with schizophrenia, 50% identical twins share the disease, while only about 10-15% of fraternal twins do. This difference is evidence for a strong genetic component in susceptibility to schizophrenia. However, the fact that both identical twins in a pair don’t develop the disease 100% of the time indicates that other factors are involved.
It seems that, as with schizophrenia, there is a* “strong genetic component in susceptibility” *to homosexuality, but that is quite different than showing the cause is genetic. “Other factors are involved.”

Ender
 
Just to follow up on this post (from the same source)…To illustrate, for twins with schizophrenia, 50% identical twins share the disease, while only about 10-15% of fraternal twins do. This difference is evidence for a strong genetic component in susceptibility to schizophrenia. However, the fact that both identical twins in a pair don’t develop the disease 100% of the time indicates that other factors are involved.
It seems that, as with schizophrenia, there is a* “strong genetic component in susceptibility*” to homosexuality, but that is quite different than showing the cause is genetic. “Other factors are involved.”

Ender
Yes, as frobert and I have been saying, epigenetics ARE that “other factor.” The in-utero environment affects development, and it may not affect development identically in identical twins, causing genes to be on in one child and off in the other, and potentially even entire structures being built differently in severe cases.
 
Yes, as frobert and I have been saying, epigenetics ARE that “other factor.” The in-utero environment affects development, and it may not affect development identically in identical twins, causing genes to be on in one child and off in the other, and potentially even entire structures being built differently in severe cases.
Thank you.

Just to follow up I have a good friend who is the mother of a lesbian daughter and is an MD involved in genetic research. So I have been keeping abreast of the developments.
 
Thank you.

Just to follow up I have a good friend who is the mother of a lesbian daughter and is an MD involved in genetic research. So I have been keeping abreast of the developments.
Even if there was a genetic component to SSA what difference does it make? The actions are the sin -not the attraction.
 
Even if there was a genetic component to SSA what difference does it make? The actions are the sin -not the attraction.
This is true. However, the main reason kids are thrown out of their house for being gay is that the parents believe their attractions are a choice and don’t want to “subsidize sin.” The Mormon church used to require families to kick out gay kids, though I don’t know if they still do. If scientific evidence could locate exactly what it is that causes the attractions we know to be unchangeable, parents would [hopefully] be less likely to do so, and people would [hopefully] be less likely to perform actions of hatred against gays and lesbians.
 
Even if there was a genetic component to SSA what difference does it make? The actions are the sin -not the attraction.
I happen to agree that the CC finds SS behaviour sinful.

Ender posted an misleading interpretation about the origin of orientation which SMGS127 and myself wished to correct. If we stay with the CC’s view that the causes are unknown we could all or at least most be in agreement.
 
This is true. However, the main reason kids are thrown out of their house for being gay is that the parents believe their attractions are a choice and don’t want to “subsidize sin.” The Mormon church used to require families to kick out gay kids, though I don’t know if they still do. If scientific evidence could locate exactly what it is that causes the attractions we know to be unchangeable, parents would [hopefully] be less likely to do so, and people would [hopefully] be less likely to perform actions of hatred against gays and lesbians.
In other words it doesn’t make any difference.

One would think reading these threads that every time a kid expressed confusion about their sexuality their parents immediately beat them with chains and threw them out on the street. I’d never seen this-not with any parent whose child has announced they are homosexual. We most certainly didn’t do it in our family .I’m sure that we can come up with all sorts of anecdotal evidence but of course that proves nothing. There is not been a time in the history of our country that homosexuality has been more accepted among the citizens and the culture.

I also see a propensity in these discussions to blame everybody for the sin except those who are committing the sin. We see the church blamed, parents blamed, schools blamed the laity of the church blamed-yadda yadda yadda. At what point does a person who engages in homosexual behavior have to take responsibility for their own actions? At what point do homosexual apologists who claim to support the teachings of the church acknowledge this?
 
In other words it doesn’t make any difference.

One would think reading these threads that every time a kid expressed confusion about their sexuality their parents immediately beat with chains and throw them out and the street. I’d never seen this-not with any parent whose child has announced they are homosexual. We most certainly didn’t do it in our family .I’m sure that we can come up with all sorts of anecdotal evidence but of course that proves nothing. There is not been a time in the history of our country that homosexuality has been more accepted among the citizens and the culture.

I also see a propensity in these discussions to blame everybody for the sin except those who are committing the sin. We see the church blamed, parents blamed, schools blamed the laity of the church blamed-yadda yadda yadda. At what point does a person who engages in homosexual behavior have to take responsibility for their own actions? At what point do homosexual apologists who claim to support the teachings of the church acknowledge this?
May I request you take a single hour of your time one day and visit/help out at an LGBT homeless shelter? I think you might have a differing opinion once you see the abuse in person. It is true that Protestants (and Mormons) are significantly more likely than Catholics to throw LGBT kids out, but the stigma still hits all Christian religions. Please check out an LGBT homeless shelter.
 
May I request you take a single hour of your time one day and visit/help out at an LGBT homeless shelter? I think you might have a differing opinion once you see the abuse in person. It is true that Protestants (and Mormons) are significantly more likely than Catholics to throw LGBT kids out, but the stigma still hits all Christian religions. Please check out an LGBT homeless shelter.
Again anecdotal evidence that does not match my life experiences. It is my experience that the majority of those kids in the shelters are there not because their parents threw them out but because they moved out rather than accept their parents rules. You will find heterosexual homeless kids all over the country who moved out for the same reason.

If I have a homosexual child is it OK for me to forbid them to " to date" people of the same-sex? Can I insist if they live my home they will respect their parents view on homosexual behavior? Or is this just something parents are allowed to do with their heterosexual kids?
 
May I request you take a single hour of your time one day and visit/help out at an LGBT homeless shelter? I think you might have a differing opinion once you see the abuse in person. It is true that Protestants (and Mormons) are significantly more likely than Catholics to throw LGBT kids out, but the stigma still hits all Christian religions. Please check out an LGBT homeless shelter.
I’d also add that people should please speak to those who either have been bullied, beaten or worse for either having such attractions, or just being suspected of having such attractions.

Research that can help establish the cause(s) of homosexual attractions will not only help those who are gay - it will also help those who happen to be suspected of being so. It will help to make people treat people as human beings, since people will know that gay people are so through no fault of their own. I guess some of these problems may persist - but at least they will significantly decrease.

There is too much of this “you must have lacked a mother/father figure”, “you must be a victim of childhood abuse” and other nonsense explanations among Catholics even today. They do no good. Knowing the biological cause of such attractions may not change our moral theology, but it will do immensely good - to gay, straight, Catholic or otherwise people.
 
So their life experiences are superior mine?
If your life experience is that it doesn’t happen, while their experience is that it happened - to them, at that - then yes, I’d say they are. In that case, your life experience would be wilfully avoiding to take in those stories, more commonly called “closing your eyes”.

Interesting to see you speaking like a proper relativist, though :tiphat:
 
If your life experience is that it doesn’t happen, while their experience is that it happened - to them, at that - then yes, I’d say they are. In that case, your life experience would be wilfully avoiding to take in those stories, more commonly called “closing your eyes”.

Interesting to see you speaking like a proper relativist, though :tiphat:
Interesting that you dismiss anybody’s life experiences that doesn’t agree with your opinions.

I raised four daughters-one of whom is a homosexual. So tell me why my life experiences, especially concerning homosexual children and their parents , are not relevant?
 
Interesting that you dismiss anybody’s life experiences that doesn’t agree with your opinions.

I raised four daughters-one of whom is a homosexual. So tell me why my life experiences, especially concerning homosexual children and their parents , are not relevant?
No, I dismiss anybody’s life experience that doesn’t agree with reality.

That people are thrown out by their parents simply for being gay is not a “life experience”, it is a fact.

Your insistence that this goes against your “life experience” is about as useful as saying “that the earth is flat goes against my life experience”.

Lastly, your experience with your daughter does in no way negate other daughters’ experiences with their parents.

I’ll end this here.
 
May I request you take a single hour of your time one day and visit/help out at an LGBT homeless shelter? I think you might have a differing opinion once you see the abuse in person. It is true that Protestants (and Mormons) are significantly more likely than Catholics to throw LGBT kids out, but the stigma still hits all Christian religions. Please check out an LGBT homeless shelter.
Joining the chorus here; yes, there are indeed such things as LGBT youth homeless shelters; in fact, there was a piece on the one in my town in the newspaper about a week ago.

I fully believe that they get kicked out by their parents; in fact, I commented in the BK thread that my mother hated gays and if I were gay and told my mother that at age 18 I would have been kicked out immediately.
Again anecdotal evidence that does not match my life experiences. It is my experience that the majority of those kids in the shelters are there not because their parents threw them out but because they moved out rather than accept their parents rules. You will find heterosexual homeless kids all over the country who moved out for the same reason.

If I have a homosexual child is it OK for me to forbid them to " to date" people of the same-sex? Can I insist if they live my home they will respect their parents view on homosexual behavior? Or is this just something parents are allowed to do with their heterosexual kids?
I understand that parents have a right to enforce rules while the kids are “under their roof,” but I still say the kids can get kicked out without breaking any rules.
 
No, I dismiss anybody’s life experience that doesn’t agree with reality.

That people are thrown out by their parents simply for being gay is not a “life experience”, it is a fact.

Your insistence that this goes against your “life experience” is about as useful as saying “that the earth is flat goes against my life experience”.

Lastly, your experience with your daughter does in no way negate other daughters’ experiences with their parents.

I’ll end this here.
Of course I never said that no children were thrown out by their parents because they announced they were homosexual . What I said was that, in my experience, that is not the norm. It would seem that my experience in this area will be much more meaningful than the anecdotal evidence from third party sources you rely on.
 
Joining the chorus here; yes, there are indeed such things as LGBT youth homeless shelters; in fact, there was a piece on the one in my town in the newspaper about a week ago.

I fully believe that they get kicked out by their parents; in fact, I commented in the BK thread that my mother hated gays and if I were gay and told my mother that at age 18 I would have been kicked out immediately.

I understand that parents have a right to enforce rules while the kids are “under their roof,” but I still say the kids can get kicked out without breaking any rules.
Kids get kicked out for all sorts of reasons. This is not something that is unique to homosexual kids. But the overwhelming majority of kids are not kicked out even when their parents disagree with their choices.
 
Okay, so here it is. I’m twenty-three and grew up in your perfect traditional Catholic family. My parents were loving and religious and great. I believed wholeheartedly what I was taught and adored it. And yet, before I even know what homosexuality was (because, like as good like Catholic girls, I was very sheltered), I began to feel romantic urges for girls. This began to creep on me as I grew older and by the time I was seventeen I knew, with some horror, that I had gay feelings.

I can already anticipate your reactions. No, there were no examples of homosexuality in my life. I was not sexually abused. I have healthy, normal relationships with men. You can’t pin this on anything environmental. If I had any choice at all I would have wanted to be straight. You cannot imagine the pain and suffering this has caused me, as a Catholic who wants desperately to be the daughter her parents wanted.

I spent most of my teenagerhood terrified of having close relationships with other women and suffered socially because of it. I tried desperately, and totally alone, to “pray away the gay”. My parents, who are wonderful in every way, didn’t even consider that this could happen to their children. I had no support. I was scared shitless, thanks to some very graphic church sermons and comments dropped by my family, that if anyone found out, I’d be kicked out of the house. Even if I kept my family’s love, there was no getting around that this would change things forever.

Eventually I realized, quite frankly, that my efforts were ********. It was clear that I am who I am. I cannot control my sexuality any more than I can control my love of hip hop, or the color of my eyes. We are born with some preferences, for different flavors of ice cream, and for some genders. I am not a pervert. My feelings for women are as pure and lofty as any my heterosexual friends have.

The more I prayed and tried, desperately, to understand why I am the way I am, the angrier I became. I am angry at my parents and my Church, who created a world of fear. I have spent so much of my life terrified of judgment. I have had no role models, no community, and no compassion.

The Church makes its views on homosexuality very clear. And for all you may claim to love the sinner, hate the sin, you all cannot deny that a Catholic congregation is an unfriendly place for even a celibate homosexual. You cannot deny that being open about who I am would be inviting gossip and cruelty, no matter how closely my life follows Church teachings. It would be like living under a microscope.

I’ve read this community’s responses to questions about homosexuality. I’ve read how, at the first mention of a gay man, you pry into his sexual history.

Imagine telling me at sixteen, a young girl who loved romcoms and longed for romance, that she could never have an intimate relationship. That celibacy for her was not a calling, or a vocation, but a sentence. Heterosexuals choose celibacy and it is a beautiful thing, but homosexuals have no choice. They are slated into one path and let’s be honest here. It sucks.

So yes, I’m angry. It makes it hard to go to Church, to have meaningful relationships with my family. My prayer life is strong and I try to follow God’s teachings, but I feel as if I’m hitting brick walls. I am tired of being told that my soul and body are an abomination and that I am incapable of giving romantic love.

The Catholic Church is scary for me. I wish it wasn’t.

I don’t know quite what I’m saying here, only that the more time I spend with Catholics, the more cruel comments about homosexuality slip, and the more I feel like this isn’t the place for me. This forum feels unsafe for me.

I don’t know what to do.
You say being a celibate homosexual is tough in the Church, because people will be cruel and scrutinize.

My question is: how will they know you’re homosexual? Based on how you dress? A simple solution would be to dress differently then. Problem solved.

If i walked into a police station wearing a cat burglar suit and have never robbed anyone, Id be judged wrongly. If I am a person who struggles with kleptomania and entered a police station dresed normally, I would not be judged unfairly. No one needs to know and honestly, this falls under the category of plain ole “Common Sense.”
 
Yes, as frobert and I have been saying, epigenetics ARE that “other factor.”
I recognize this as a possibility and I understand what your position is, and while one might be justified in claiming that epigenetics* may be* the other factor, there is no scientific justification for claiming that it is. This simply has not been determined.

Ender
 
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