L
lax16
Guest
I am glad to hear it Parker. If I were LDS I would stick with the original teachings as well.
The weather has been very nice - I especially love a blue sky no matter what the temperature!
- Status
The weather has been very nice - I especially love a blue sky no matter what the temperature!
P
ParkerD
Guest
To the general reader,
Since one of the discussion points in this thread is the writing of Solomon Spaulding, I might as well note (even though I think this thread is what I regard as a lightning rod thread–but a few readers will, I suppose, be looking for “answers” here anyway) that any serious student of the question of Book of Mormon authorship would of course compare the available texts in all the literary comparisons that normal scholarship entails.
When scholars try to discover if William Shakespeare was really the author of the plays and sonnets that have his name on them, for example, they will look for other writing of the period that are representative of possible authors since one of the sonnets hinted that the real “Shakespeare” may have been submitting his work through the use of that name because he wanted to keep his real name hidden. When scholars do that, they find “word prints” that show similar word usage, ideas, style, syntax, literary complexity, use of metaphorical language and other literary devices, apparent historical knowledge of the author, and so forth.
For anyone to have seriously taken that approach when taking any proposed “author” of the Book of Mormon and come up with the name of “Solomon Spaulding” or “Sidney Rigdon” or “Oliver Cowdery” to be the author, shows merely that that person making that supposition has not the slightest ability to make the kind of literary “word print” comparison that a serious scholar makes.
There is no comparable literary work in existence–not one, when one takes the whole scope of the Book of Mormon and does a fair and thorough comparison.
If someone is so bent on trying to disprove that the Book of Mormon was written through divine help, then if that person is being sincere within themselves they ought to take out some paper and start writing a book and see how easy it is to be authentic and have the same literary complexity and show different authors’ distinctive stylistics. (Let them use the Bible, fine, to add what they suppose “Joseph Smith added to the text” to show that the Biblical texts were known as sources for study by the Nephite prophets, and were loved by those prophets, but they will need to add other source prophetic texts that were at one time in Jerusalem and that are not in the Bible since the Book of Mormon does that.)
Anyone who tries to do that will soon find that realistically, they are in way over their head, particularly since they wouldn’t be able to use a computer or the internet and say that they have produced a manuscript that replicates in stylistics, word usage, literary complexity, and multiple authorship “word prints”–what Joseph Smith or the supposed “hidden author” did.
If anyone is going to take issue with the above and thinks I ought to respond to other questions raised here, then the only reason I will respond is if they show they have successfully done that with several paragraphs of their own writing, and present those paragraphs to show their work and how it matches the content and complexity of the Book of Mormon. And I’m not talking just putting together a few “it came to pass” sentences.
Peace to you, readers. Have a good Sunday.
S
SirThomasMore
Guest
why is this posted twice? Give me Cowdery, Rigdon, other books to use and a Bible to copy from, and I think I could do it
R
Returning_Home
Guest
You’ve made your case and now I’ll respond with the facts. We find the New Testament sprinkled throughout the BOM some 700 years before it was written. Not only that, but we find specific NT phrases and even entire sentences from the KJV version of the NT some 2,200 years before it was published. We have Lehi and Nephi using, as part of their regular speech, pieces of books not yet written by men not yet born on a continent some 5,000 miles away. This takes the date of the BOM authorship to not earlier than 1611.
It’s also impossible to achive this in light of the fact the no language-to-language translation results in a perfect word-for-word transcription, yet there it is, the Elizabethan English of the KJV clearly coming through a document that allegedly predates it by thousands of years.
We know, through David Whitmer and Apostle Russel M. Nelson, that Joseph Smith didn’t use his own words, in spite of the fact that his own Bible was the KJV. We also know that Smith claimed there were no Greek or Latin words in the text either, but I guess no one told him that Christ, a name used many times throughout the text, has a Greek root.
That all said, I’ll give some specifics:
Lehi is predicting the plates of brass, saying: “That these plates of brass should go forth unto all *nations, kindreds, tongues, and people *who were of his see.” (1 Nephi 5:18)
Compare this to Revelation 11:9: “And they of the *people and kindreds and tongues and nations *shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put into graves.”
The same phrase is echoed in Revelation 7:9: "After this I beheld, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes
Nephi has a vision in 1 Nephi12:11: “And the angel said unto me: Look! And I looked, and beheld three generations pass away in righteousness; and their garments were white even like unto the Lamb of God. And the angel said unto me: These are made white in the blood of the Lamb, because of their faith in him.”
That sounds much less impressive when looking at Revelation 7:14: “And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said unto me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
This goes on and on in the text as shown here:
Rev 11:9, 1 Nephi 5:18
Rev 7:14, 1 Nephi 12:10-11
Rev 18:12, 1 Nephi 13:7
Rev 17:1,15, 1 Nephi 14:11
Rev 14:4, 2 Nephi 2:9
Rev 20:2, 2 Nephi 2:18
Rev 20:13, 2 Nephi 9:12
Rev 22:11, 2 Nephi 9:16
Rev 20:13-14, 2 Nephi 28:23
Rev 20:12, 2 Nephi 29:11
Rev 22:11, Alma 7:21
Rev 6:16, Alma 12:14
It looks as if the author of the BOM simply went through Revelation as he wrote, picking and choosing what he liked, doesn’t it?
R
Returning_Home
Guest
The best example of the BOM having been written by a mortal man, however, with no help from divine sources is 3 Nephi 20:23-25: "Behold, I am he of whom Moses spake, saying: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass that every soul who will not hear that prophet shall be cut off from among the people.
"Verily I say unto you, yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many have spoken, have testified of me.
“And behold, ye are the children of the prophets; and ye are of the house of Israel; and ye are of the covenant which the Fathers made with your fathers, saying unto Abraham: And in thy seed shall the kindreds of the earth be blessed.”
This, too, sounds mighty impressive, as if it confirms what the Bible says: "For Moses truly said unto the father, *A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whosoever he shall say unto you.
"And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
"Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many have spoken**, have likewise foretold of these days.
Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed." (Acts 3:22-25)
Compared side-by-side, the fact that these two are similar, nay, identical, is undeniable. The problem here is that in the BOM, ‘jesus’ says that he’s going to quote Moses. If he did, he would’ve said: “The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me, unto him shall ye heaken.” (Deut 18:15) But he didn’t, did he? No, The BOM and Acts use the same wording which belongs to Luke, his paraphrase of Moses’ words.
We thus see that the Mormon jesus made a mistake, assigning the words he’s speaking to someone else. How could the savior of all mankind, the Lamb of God, make such an embarrassing mistake?
The only answer is that he didn’t because he couldn’t. To imply that he did is to say that he doesn’t know the Bible very well, the very testament to his divinity and forgiving nature, a nature that we’ve already seen the LDS revise and demean.
You might cite the phony chiasmus, but if that’s your standard for divinity, you’ll have to include the words of Mae West, John F. Kennedy, and many others. You’ll also have to note on that point that we find chiasmus in the D&C, showing that it was indeed part of Smith’s normal language pattern since he was using his own words for his revelaions and prophecies.
Your entire case, Parker, has exactly no foundation because, if the BOM were written in several different styles, we’d be able to see that. Instead, there’s no evidence of that whatsoever and you’ve shown that you’re just parroting LDS sources or, worse yet, FAIR and FARMS. The facts against the BOM being an ancient document are scathing, and we haven’t gotten to the fact that there’s exactly no confirmation of any such Nephites, Lamanites, or ancient Hebrew or Christian influence in the New World before European explorers came into the picture. We also haven’t gotten to the facts that Smith never once made a correct prophecy, that the BOM has nothing to do with Mormonism, or that the text has been revised with each and every edition right from the beginning.
No, the BOM isn’t the most perfect book on earth. Not even close.*
"Verily I say unto you, yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many have spoken, have testified of me.
“And behold, ye are the children of the prophets; and ye are of the house of Israel; and ye are of the covenant which the Fathers made with your fathers, saying unto Abraham: And in thy seed shall the kindreds of the earth be blessed.”
This, too, sounds mighty impressive, as if it confirms what the Bible says: "For Moses truly said unto the father, *A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whosoever he shall say unto you.
"And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
"Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many have spoken**, have likewise foretold of these days.
Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed." (Acts 3:22-25)
Compared side-by-side, the fact that these two are similar, nay, identical, is undeniable. The problem here is that in the BOM, ‘jesus’ says that he’s going to quote Moses. If he did, he would’ve said: “The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me, unto him shall ye heaken.” (Deut 18:15) But he didn’t, did he? No, The BOM and Acts use the same wording which belongs to Luke, his paraphrase of Moses’ words.
We thus see that the Mormon jesus made a mistake, assigning the words he’s speaking to someone else. How could the savior of all mankind, the Lamb of God, make such an embarrassing mistake?
The only answer is that he didn’t because he couldn’t. To imply that he did is to say that he doesn’t know the Bible very well, the very testament to his divinity and forgiving nature, a nature that we’ve already seen the LDS revise and demean.
You might cite the phony chiasmus, but if that’s your standard for divinity, you’ll have to include the words of Mae West, John F. Kennedy, and many others. You’ll also have to note on that point that we find chiasmus in the D&C, showing that it was indeed part of Smith’s normal language pattern since he was using his own words for his revelaions and prophecies.
Your entire case, Parker, has exactly no foundation because, if the BOM were written in several different styles, we’d be able to see that. Instead, there’s no evidence of that whatsoever and you’ve shown that you’re just parroting LDS sources or, worse yet, FAIR and FARMS. The facts against the BOM being an ancient document are scathing, and we haven’t gotten to the fact that there’s exactly no confirmation of any such Nephites, Lamanites, or ancient Hebrew or Christian influence in the New World before European explorers came into the picture. We also haven’t gotten to the facts that Smith never once made a correct prophecy, that the BOM has nothing to do with Mormonism, or that the text has been revised with each and every edition right from the beginning.
No, the BOM isn’t the most perfect book on earth. Not even close.*
B
beehumble
Guest
**
The Latter-day Saints have faith in God and our Lord Jesus Christ, not in archaeologists.**
I deeply admire your believe in your faith. I disagree, but I an envious of how much trust you have in your faith.
No they don’t have faith in the Christian Lord Jesus Christ. Mormons do not believe Jesus is God. Their beliefs are so far removed from Christiandom that while baptisms in most Protestant religions are accepted by Catholicism, Mormon baptism is not. If baptized in Mormonism, one must be re-baptized when they he/she converts to Catholicism.
Don’t be fooled by the name. Communist countries also say they are the People’s Republics.
P
ParkerD
Guest
P
ParkerD
Guest
RH,
Here are the verses you presented, and as I get time I’ll explain about how an angel teaching John and a vision that John has can present the gospel message in the same language and with the same message as an angel teaching other prophets or as a vision another prophet has.
Rev 11:9
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
1 Nephi 5:18
18 That these plates of brass should go forth unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who were of his seed.
Rev 7:14
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
1 Nephi 12:10-11
10 And these twelve ministers whom thou beholdest shall judge thy seed. And, behold, they are righteous forever; for because of their faith in the Lamb of God their garments are made white in his blood.
11 And the angel said unto me: Look! And I looked, and beheld three generations pass away in righteousness; and their garments were white even like unto the Lamb of God. And the angel said unto me: These are made white in the blood of the Lamb, because of their faith in him.
Rev 18:12
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
1 Nephi 13:7-9
7 And I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots.
8 And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church.
9 And also for the praise of the world do they destroy the saints of God, and bring them down into captivity.
Rev 17:1,15,
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
1 Nephi 14:11-14
11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.
12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.
13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.
14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.
Rev 14:4
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
, 2 Nephi 2:9-10
9 Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved.
10 And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement—
Rev 20:2
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
, 2 Nephi 2:18
18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.
Rev 20:13
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
, 2 Nephi 9:12
12 And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; which spiritual death is hell; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other; and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel.
Here are the verses you presented, and as I get time I’ll explain about how an angel teaching John and a vision that John has can present the gospel message in the same language and with the same message as an angel teaching other prophets or as a vision another prophet has.
Rev 11:9
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
1 Nephi 5:18
18 That these plates of brass should go forth unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who were of his seed.
Rev 7:14
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
1 Nephi 12:10-11
10 And these twelve ministers whom thou beholdest shall judge thy seed. And, behold, they are righteous forever; for because of their faith in the Lamb of God their garments are made white in his blood.
11 And the angel said unto me: Look! And I looked, and beheld three generations pass away in righteousness; and their garments were white even like unto the Lamb of God. And the angel said unto me: These are made white in the blood of the Lamb, because of their faith in him.
Rev 18:12
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
1 Nephi 13:7-9
7 And I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots.
8 And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church.
9 And also for the praise of the world do they destroy the saints of God, and bring them down into captivity.
Rev 17:1,15,
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
1 Nephi 14:11-14
11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.
12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.
13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.
14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.
Rev 14:4
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
, 2 Nephi 2:9-10
9 Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved.
10 And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement—
Rev 20:2
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
, 2 Nephi 2:18
18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.
Rev 20:13
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
, 2 Nephi 9:12
12 And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; which spiritual death is hell; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other; and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel.
P
ParkerD
Guest
RH,
More of the comparison verses:
Rev 22:11
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
, 2 Nephi 9:16
16 And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end.
Rev 20:13-14
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
,
2 Nephi 28:23-30
23 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.
24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!
25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!
26 Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, and denieth the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost!
27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more!
28 And in fine, wo unto all those who tremble, and are angry because of the truth of God! For behold, he that is built upon the rock receiveth it with gladness; and he that is built upon a sandy foundation trembleth lest he shall fall.
29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough!
30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.
More of the comparison verses:
Rev 22:11
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
, 2 Nephi 9:16
16 And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end.
Rev 20:13-14
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
,
2 Nephi 28:23-30
23 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.
24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!
25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!
26 Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, and denieth the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost!
27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more!
28 And in fine, wo unto all those who tremble, and are angry because of the truth of God! For behold, he that is built upon the rock receiveth it with gladness; and he that is built upon a sandy foundation trembleth lest he shall fall.
29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough!
30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.
P
pismopal
Guest
- There is archeological evidence of smaller events from more distant history.
- You tell us…the story is yours not ours.
P
ParkerD
Guest
RH,
Here are texts from the angels who visited John, using that expression:
Rev. 5: 9
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev. 7: 9
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev. 11: 9
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev. 14: 6
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
I don’t know why you don’t think the angels are aware of all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, but I think they are aware of them and can communicate about messages that impact all people, using that specific language. Often it happens in the Bible that several words having a similar meaning are used in succession, to emphasize the point being made. Of course an angel could visit Lehi and use the same kind of language as an angel was later going to use when he visited John. This is totally to be expected.
P
ParkerD
Guest
RH,
The angel who visited Nephi told him that John was going to have a similar vision and that John would have the responsibility to write further things from the vision than the things that Nephi was told to write. So of course the angel would use similar language, and of course the knowledge that Jesus provides the blessing of the atonement and through that blessing our “garments are made white in the blood of the Lamb” is known by the angels.
Here are verses in Isaiah that convey a similar message:
Isa. 63: 3
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
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Pahoran
Guest
I doubt it. It’s right here; scroll down to Post #4.Mighty peculiar. Your post isn’t there now.I can see your post here. Will they deny that that post ever existed?
Right where it always was.
Serious students of religion understand that “standardisation” always comes at the end, not the beginning of the development of a body of teaching.
Non-serious students don’t care, of course.
Regards,
Pahoran
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Pahoran
Guest
You’ve just contradicted yourself. Posters with “genuine questions” stay around to discuss them. “Hit-and-run” posting is also known as “trolling” and gets short shrift from Internet communities everywhere.
Remember the Golden Rule? Would you like it if people who had no interest in actually discussing things were to use your board as a dumping ground for recycled, long-ago-addressed criticisms?
No?
Then how about you try to think of Mormons as your neighbours, difficult though that may be for you?
Regards,
Pahoran
L
LongJourney
Guest
If I have a genuine question about their response to a document, I will take it to them.
However, at that board I have been repeatedly harassed and people have intentionally tried to make me angry so that they would have an excuse for banning me. I voluntarily left, before having lost my temper.
If I have a question for one of the more scholarly members of the board, but the denizens of that board constantly surround me with harassing and belittling posts, so that my question will not get noticed, I would prefer to not go there.
I have found that one hit and run, starting a thread, is the best way to get my question answered. I have the right to effectively post on that board. I also have the right to not post on that board.
I will be very interested in your response, to see if it justifies reporting to our new mod.
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Pahoran
Guest
My response to what? Your trolling on another forum, or your attempts to first brag about, and now justify, it here?If I have a genuine question about their response to a document, I will take it to them.
However, at that board I have been repeatedly harassed and people have intentionally tried to make me angry so that they would have an excuse for banning me. I voluntarily left, before having lost my temper.
If I have a question for one of the more scholarly members of the board, but the denizens of that board constantly surround me with harassing and belittling posts, so that my question will not get noticed, I would prefer to not go there.
I have found that one hit and run, starting a thread, is the best way to get my question answered. I have the right to effectively post on that board. I also have the right to not post on that board.
I will be very interested in your response, to see if it justifies reporting to our new mod.
Regards,
Pahoran
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Pahoran
Guest
So the “best evidence” that the Church is an institution that habitually lies is that it concealed a practice that everyone – including you – knew and knows would cause the intolerance of the neighbouring “Christians” to erupt into deadly violence?
If that’s the “best evidence” you’ve got, clearly you don’t have much.
No, it means new and everlasting. Celestial marriage is still in force.
Snip more off-topic anti-Mormon jeering.
So going to “mass” is a way of “programming” people, is it?
Good thing we don’t have “mass” then.
Did you not actually know that?
You’re going to have to do better than recycled pop-psychobabble. The question is – can you?
Yeah, why don’t I deny myself real spiritual blessings, just to take a dare from an anonymous Internet taunter?
Actually the question rather answers itself, dontcha think?
So if a Latter-day Saint is offended because his faith is subjected to scurrilous attacks, that’s evidence of “the church’s programming,” but if a Catholic reacts to the same kind of attack in the same way, it’s not?
By what kind of weird logic does that work?
It makes perfect sense. God has always worked through imperfect men. See, once again, here.
Are you this obtuse in real life, or only when it suits you? I am not “trying to play both sides of” anything at all. If you really don’t understand current LDS scholarship on questions of Book of Mormon geography, then maybe you ought to drop out of attack mode long enough to actually learn something about your target.
You made up that “One and only.”
So what? Do photographs of Dublin routinely mention that it is one of several known Dublins in the world, or do they refer to it in the proper and singular?
Snip obligatory cheap shot.
Regards,
Pahoran
S
SirThomasMore
Guest
lol…coming from the guy who trolled here. Coming from the guy who lied over there AND over here.
I just want to thank you. Your conduct here AND there have validated all we have said about Mormons. YOu have no idea how grateful I am
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Todd520
Guest
STM,
To be consistent with the other board, this post of yours is a great example of why I often find you to be rude and manipulative in your communication.
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Pahoran
Guest
And so to “fool” people, he quoted the Stephens book in the article!!??
How desperate to make an accusation stick are you, really?
Everyone.
Knows.
That.
Joseph.
Changed.
His.
View.
Of.
Book.
Of.
Mormon.
Geography.
Because…
(are you ready for this…?)
He came right out and said so.
Read the above as many times as you need to until it finally sinks in.
No doubt your amazing mind-reading skills are equal to the task of imagining a motive for Joseph to “change his mind” about this, but the fact remains that the most parsimonious explanation is that he was open to new information about a subject that was important to him.
None of which contradicts anything subsequently revealed.
There are many LDS-distinctive doctrines in the Book of Mormon; your attempt to cherry-pick a few does not negate that fact.
And incidentally your list is defective. There is a rather distinct “mention” of one of the items in your list. I’m not going to tell you which one; you can go and look it up.
IOW, it’s just your opinion.
Snip mere opining.
I have received and deleted your spam. Kindly don’t send me any more.
Regards,
Pahoran
- Status