Serious Question from a Life Long Protestant

[AlaricTeudisson]

This is my first post. I would like to ask a basic question pertaining to how Catholics view those who call themselves Christians outside of the Catholic Church.

But first a little background. I was born into a Presbyterian church going family. I married and became a member of the Episcopal church. My wife has always leaned toward the Catholic church but she kind of defaulted to the Episcopal church since it had reformed theology (for my perceived comfort) and a liturgical worship practice which she liked. We periodically, maybe once or twice a year, attend Catholic mass on a Friday evening. I also have several close friends who are Catholic, via marrying Catholic girls, and we have had lots of discussions about faith issues. So, I am not completely ignorant about the Catholic Church.

After spending my first 36 years as a nominal Christian (i.e. in name only), the Holy Spirit finally got to me and convicted me about who Jesus was and what He did for me. I have always been an avid reader/researcher. After the call, I focused my energies on learning more about the Faith. I have read much of the Patristic writings, Catholic Catechism, Orthodox Catechism, later reformed theologians, Ray Brown, and NT Wright along with others. I consider myself a “conservative” “traditional” “creedal” Christian. We attend church regularly. I teach Sunday School and am involved in the leadership of my Parish. Also, I am not struggling with uniqueness of Christ, trinity issues, or anti-Catholic issues. Nor do I have problems with anything in the Creeds.

I do understand that these words don’t carry much weight with my Catholic brothers and sisters since calling yourself a Christian outside of the Catholic Church is perceived as problematic. But, I say this to point out that I am not a pro abortion, many paths to heaven type of protestant. I also acknowledge that my belief in the creeds does not hold a lot of water with Catholics either since you would most likely say (with validity) that I do not have the same meaning for some of the words. (For example, one holy Catholic and apostolic church means “Catholic Church” to you while I have always viewed that as the body of all believing Christians with Christ as the head.)

With the Episcopal Church falling into apostasy (I have Anglican in my moniker since saying your Episcopalian to most Catholics is like saying you’re Buddhist), my wife and I know that we will probably need to make a change soon. She is perfectly willing (and hoping) to go to the Catholic Church. Many of my fellow Episcopalians (Lay,Bishop, and Priest) have crossed over to the Catholic Church. Before my family makes such a move, I need to do some more investigating, so that is why I am here. I have been lurking for several weeks on the site and decided that it is time to participate a little more actively.

So much for the background….Now for my question. After reading many threads over the past few weeks, it seems that Protestants are held in less than high regard by many Catholics. In many cases it seems difficult for Catholics to acknowledge somebody outside the Church as Christian.

I realize that Catholics believe that they are members of the one true Church and only there do you find the fullness of truth in Christ. Here is my problem……I am reluctant to post in threads and participate if I am perceived by the majority of people here as non Christian. Am I no different to a Catholic than a Mormon or JW? I guess what I want to hear is this: Yes, we consider you a Christian, but you do not have the fullness or completeness of a relationship with Christ since you are not a member of the Catholic Church. I can deal with that. In other words, am I considered by the Catholic Church a wayward sheep or a goat?

Hopefully, this will not be an opinion thing, but a fact thing. The Church surely has a position on “outside” the Church Christians like me. Maybe the answer is…It depends on what you believe. Please don’t misunderstand me. I am not in search of affirmation. I really want to know how somebody like me is officially (and unofficially) viewed by the Church.

I appreciate all responses.

Jeff

 

[snuccio]

Jeff,

GOOD NEWS!! you are absolutely a Christian!

Catholic teaching states that any person validly baptized is baptized into the body of Christ and is a Christian. As the Bible states the Church is the Body of Christ. Now we can go back and forth discussing what makes-up the Church but for me, as a cradle Catholic, it’s the Catholic Church. Catholics don’t have the lock on being Christian.

Catholic teaching also goes on to say that since the Catholic Church is the body of Christ all validly baptized Christians are actually members of this body which is the Catholic Church. They may not subscribe to our theology but by Baptism they’re members.

Pope John Paul II said it best by calling our Protestant brothers “Separated Brethren.”

WE ARE ALL BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN CHRIST

In Christ

Steve:knight1:

 

[Claire_from_DE]

This is my first post. I would like to ask a basic question pertaining to how Catholics view those who call themselves Christians outside of the Catholic Church.

But first a little background. I was born into a Presbyterian church going family. I married and became a member of the Episcopal church. My wife has always leaned toward the Catholic church but she kind of defaulted to the Episcopal church since it had reformed theology (for my perceived comfort) and a liturgical worship practice which she liked. We periodically, maybe once or twice a year, attend Catholic mass on a Friday evening. I also have several close friends who are Catholic, via marrying Catholic girls, and we have had lots of discussions about faith issues. So, I am not completely ignorant about the Catholic Church.

After spending my first 36 years as a nominal Christian (i.e. in name only), the Holy Spirit finally got to me and convicted me about who Jesus was and what He did for me. I have always been an avid reader/researcher. After the call, I focused my energies on learning more about the Faith. I have read much of the Patristic writings, Catholic Catechism, Orthodox Catechism, later reformed theologians, Ray Brown, and NT Wright along with others. I consider myself a “conservative” “traditional” “creedal” Christian. We attend church regularly. I teach Sunday School and am involved in the leadership of my Parish. Also, I am not struggling with uniqueness of Christ, trinity issues, or anti-Catholic issues. Nor do I have problems with anything in the Creeds.

I do understand that these words don’t carry much weight with my Catholic brothers and sisters since calling yourself a Christian outside of the Catholic Church is perceived as problematic. But, I say this to point out that I am not a pro abortion, many paths to heaven type of protestant. I also acknowledge that my belief in the creeds does not hold a lot of water with Catholics either since you would most likely say (with validity) that I do not have the same meaning for some of the words. (For example, one holy Catholic and apostolic church means “Catholic Church” to you while I have always viewed that as the body of all believing Christians with Christ as the head.)

With the Episcopal Church falling into apostasy (I have Anglican in my moniker since saying your Episcopalian to most Catholics is like saying you’re Buddhist), my wife and I know that we will probably need to make a change soon. She is perfectly willing (and hoping) to go to the Catholic Church. Many of my fellow Episcopalians (Lay,Bishop, and Priest) have crossed over to the Catholic Church. Before my family makes such a move, I need to do some more investigating, so that is why I am here. I have been lurking for several weeks on the site and decided that it is time to participate a little more actively.

So much for the background….Now for my question. After reading many threads over the past few weeks, it seems that Protestants are held in less than high regard by many Catholics. In many cases it seems difficult for Catholics to acknowledge somebody outside the Church as Christian.

I realize that Catholics believe that they are members of the one true Church and only there do you find the fullness of truth in Christ. Here is my problem……I am reluctant to post in threads and participate if I am perceived by the majority of people here as non Christian. Am I no different to a Catholic than a Mormon or JW? I guess what I want to hear is this: Yes, we consider you a Christian, but you do not have the fullness or completeness of a relationship with Christ since you are not a member of the Catholic Church. I can deal with that. In other words, am I considered by the Catholic Church a wayward sheep or a goat?

Hopefully, this will not be an opinion thing, but a fact thing. The Church surely has a position on “outside” the Church Christians like me. Maybe the answer is…It depends on what you believe. Please don’t misunderstand me. I am not in search of affirmation. I really want to know how somebody like me is officially (and unofficially) viewed by the Church.

I appreciate all responses.

Jeff

There are many Protestants who are better Christians than I am even though I am Catholic. It is all about how much you love God and seek to follow his will. But the church founded by Christ subsists in the Catholic church which contains the fullness of revelation, the sacraments, etc. No Protestant church contains all that.

That the Catholic church accepts Protestants as Christians is obvious from the fact that it doesn’t re-baptize Protestants who come into the Catholic church. They are already Christians by their baptism. They were already connected to the Catholic church even before they came into complete union with it.

Protestants are definitely Christians according to the Catholic Church.

 

[ricko]

Yes, you are considered Christian officially (and unofficially)!

saying your Episcopalian to most Catholics is like saying you’re Buddhist),

That’s the first time I’ve head that one!

Am I no different to a Catholic than a Mormon or JW?

I would hope you are different as those two groups are considered to be cults and not Christian.

In many cases it seems difficult for Catholics to acknowledge somebody outside the Church as Christian.

Not at all except for the two groups mentioned above.

As snuccio said, our Protestant brothers are considered. “Separated Brethren.”

Everything else in your post is correct and sounds very much Catholic. I would imagine that you do have some questions (as most do) about Papal infallibility, Mary, prayers to the Saints, etc. Ask away Jeff and welcome to the forum.

By the way, my wife is Episcopalian.

God Bless

 

[puppypatrol]

Catholics who are true to the faith and the magisterium do not look upon protestants as non-christians. They are simply our separated brothers and sisters in Christ who have not yet found the fullness of their faith. While the Church can show it’s lineage from the time of Christ, the Church does not teach that unless you are Catholic you are not Christian. That doesn’t make any more sense that when some Evangelicals/Pentecostals/Fundamentalists go around calling the Catholic Church a cult and that Catholics are not Christians and are doomed to hell.

If anyone says you are not Christian because you are not Catholic PLEASE remember it is the personal opinion (an flawed for that matter) of that person, not the Roman Catholic Church. We truly love our separated brothers and sisters, look forward to working with them, look forward to praying with and for them as they pray with and for us. As in John 10:14-16 – *14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. *
Christ is the good Shepherd whose sheep are of many folds (Catholic, Protestant) but they are all of one flock.

I hope you will continue to visit this forum and look for the answers to your questions and, maybe you too will find your way into the Catholic Church.

 

[Godfollower]

You’re a Christian. Welcome to CAF! Please post; it’s the interaction between Catholics and Protestants that enriches these boards.

I like to think that the negative comments you see have to do with the fact that, on some threads, the level of debate has sunk to improperly low levels. Some non-Catholics post with (apparently) deliberately provacative postings; some Catholics post with (apparently) deliberately rude responses. Add in a little ignorance (both about one’s own faith and about each other’s faiths) and you can sometimes get a right mess on your hands.

But we’re all called to be charitable, which (contrary to some opinions) means being polite. And it isn’t just politeness for form’s sake; non-Catholic Christans are still legitimately Christians. No matter what some people might say. So, please, don’t let rude comments of a few drive you away.

As for the substance of your question, here’s what the Catholic Church teaches:

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

Catechism of the Catholic Church paras. 818-19.

 

[TheQuestioner]

Yes, we consider you a Christian, but you do not have the fullness or completeness of the Truth with Christ since you are not a member of the Catholic Church.

Please please please pleeeeeaaaassssse do not be discouraged by Catholics on this forum. This forum is a ground for debate, and thus we have to have confidence in our own Catholic side of the debate. Some of us (including me) come here and seem a bit confrontational, but that is because this is a place were debate occurs. The forum is in no way a true representation of Catholics in real life. In real life we all may have protestant friends and know protestants to be good Christians too, but because the forum is a place for debate (and possibly conversion) then we put on our “game face”. A boxer may be peaceful outside of the ring but inside he can become nothing short of an animal:thumbsup:

Just the same it is not like we are lying about who we are in real life, and what you see on this form is the way catholics “really feel”, but on the contrary, what you see here is our “game face”. Some of us just get carried away (me included )

 

[SonofMonica]

Jeff, by virtue of your baptism, you are most certainly a Christian. By the way, if you need some encouragement on your journey, or just looking for a friend going through the same thing, my wife and I are also journeying into the Catholic Church from the Episcopal Church. Feel free to shoot me PM’s and we can discuss further.

You will [should] find your Catholic parish welcoming you with open arms. However, do not be discouraged if they do not assume you know certain things. I went to a very Anglo-catholic Episcopal parish, and some Catholic parishioners assumed we were standard *sola scriptura *protestants with no sacramental understanding or adherence to Tradition. It was a bit of a shock to some of them to hear that we had priests, auricular confession, elevation of the host, processionals, etc. So you will come in at an advantage already possessing some sacramental consciousness, even if your parish didn’t believe in transubstantiation like mine.

That will allow you to focus your learning on different things and bring your own talents and gifts to the Church even sooner than someone whose faith is further removed from Catholicism than Anglicanism. You know, maybe they will appreciate that Anglican music sounds better, and maybe these cradle Catholics will let us Episcopalians teach them a thing or two about chant once we finally get in there…

Nudging and winking aside, I’m excited for you and your family! Like I said, feel free to drop me a PM. We can always use encouragement, too. It’s not easy to leave such a beautiful building with beautiful liturgy and such an orthodox Episcopal priest, but I know that we’re doing the right thing in wanting to raise our children in the Catholic faith during a time of relativism just about everywhere else, especially in the TEC. May God bless you and keep you.

 

[SonofMonica]

P.S., Jeff, a common term for an Anglican/Episcopalian joining the Catholic Church is “swimming the Tiber” [as in the river one must cross from the West to get into Rome]. You should join the Tiber Swim Team here on the forum. There’s lots of us.

By the way, WELCOME!!!

 

[mark_a]

Now for my question. After reading many threads over the past few weeks, it seems that Protestants are held in less than high regard by many Catholics. In many cases it seems difficult for Catholics to acknowledge somebody outside the Church as Christian.

Most Protestants that come here presume to know the Catholic Church’s teachings and how wrong we are. They lack humility.

Many of us feel like we are in the same boat as you, we feel we are judged.

Am I no different to a Catholic than a Mormon or JW?

Not the same since these folks claim a much earlier (1st century apostacy of the Catholic Church). We don’t sense the same hatred radiating toward Catholicism from most Protestants as we do some of the quasi-Christians.

I guess what I want to hear is this: Yes, we consider you a Christian, but you do not have the fullness or completeness of a relationship with Christ since you are not a member of the Catholic Church. I can deal with that. In other words, am I considered by the Catholic Church a wayward sheep or a goat?

Yes, we consider you a Christian, but you do not have the fullness or completeness of a relationship with Christ since you are not a member of the Catholic Church. I can deal with that. In other words, am I considered by the Catholic Church a wayward sheep or a goat?

 

[AlaricTeudisson]

Thanks guys for your response. Now I will feel less uncomfortable chiming in on threads while I am learning. “Separated brethren” sounds much better than apostate.

Rick, no offense intended with my Episcopal/ Buddhist line in the OP. I should have put a smiley face after that. It was kind of tongue in cheek. It’s just that, despite having a wonderful prayer book, the praxis of many Episcopal churches stretches the limits of orthodoxy in my opinion. (The Fr. Cutie episode is just a minor example) So much so that I am embarrassed to tell people what church I go to. That is not a good place to be and it makes you ask the question….”Why do I stay here?” Which is why I am looking.

A side note on my Episcopal dilemma……My sister and brother in law live in the Boston area and do not have a church home. My father and mother were visiting them for Easter. Dad, the devout Presbyterian, wanted to take everyone to Sunday services. He asked me if he should take them to an Episcopal church in the area since the Episcopal church in my state(SC) has done so much for me. I had to say no and told him that you just can’t count on solid traditional Christianity being taught in every Episcopal church. It varies by region depending upon the leadership. I told him that to be safe he should take them to a Catholic or Orthodox church. He looked at me like I had 4 heads. I told him that the days of expecting traditional Christian teaching from all protestant denominations was a thing of the past. A traditional protestant has to be very careful what church they attend. But, in my experience, you can count on Catholic and Orthodox churches to be much more consistent in their praxis.

I know this makes me sound very traditional. I guess I am….

Jeff

 

[dplunkt]

catholic means “universal” in our creed not “Roman Catholic”. The scriptures are clear “if they are not against us they are with us” and “If he testifies that Christ Jesus is the Son of God and that Christ rose from the dead” he is with us.

Unfortunately the term protestant is a pretty broad term. If on this site you see some Catholics not treating someone very well its first, rude and unnessasary, and secondly unproductive. I feel that this is sometimes a kneejerk reaction as a small portion of non-catholics are very very anti-catholic. An example would be those who hold the same views as say Dave Hunt. But even then, as misguided as he is, I would say he is still Christian.

 

[1ke]

Absolutely, the Church teaching is clear that all the baptized are 100% fully Christian, they are brothers in Christ to us. They are, in fact, 100% Catholics-- though imperfectly united to the Church.

What you have to remember when posting here are a few things:

(1) Individual Catholics are not “the Church” and inividual Catholics come in all shapes and sizes including, but not limited to:

• wrong
• bigoted
• misinformed
• rude
• not very nice
• kind
• humble
• helpful
• and every other adjective-- good and bad-- used to describe our sorry, sinful race

So, what one Catholic may say or imply by speech or actions to the contrary in no way is representative of Catholics in general or the Church’s teaching.

(2) Internet forums such as this tend to emphasize the differences instead of the similarities. In all my time sidewalk counseling outside Planned Parenthood, for example, I never once had a debate with the baptist lady who counseled with me every Saturday. She and I walked arm in arm with the mission of saving lives and souls. We were friendly, invited each other to little get togethers and parties, etc. Secretly she may have thought me bound for hell, I have no idea. But not once did that ever arise or in any way come through as we worked in pro-life activities together. Only on boards like this do I tend to get into debates about differences and distinctions-- because, after all, that is the purpose of this board.

(3) Don’t spend all your time on the intellectual aspects of the faith (although that is certainly important) but also live the faith through the Liturgy and community. Go to the Catholic Church and become active in the liturgy to the extent someone not yet fully in communion can be.

(4) Continue your intellectual pursuit. As a former cradle Episcopalian who has been Catholic since 1992, converting as a single adult with no agenda such as to get married, I can certainly vouch for that method of entering the Church! It’s the “wow, I can’t be intellectually honest and remain outside the Church” method… or it was in my case.

 

[Eucharisted]

Catholic Christians and Non-Catholic Christians are all Christians.

 

[mark_a]

He looked at me like I had 4 heads.

 

[AlaricTeudisson]

P.S., Jeff, a common term for an Anglican/Episcopalian joining the Catholic Church is “swimming the Tiber” [as in the river one must cross from the West to get into Rome]. You should join the Tiber Swim Team here on the forum. There’s lots of us.

By the way, WELCOME!!!

Thanks for the encouragement SonofMonica. As I learn more, I will take you up on your kind offer to PM you to discuss your conversion process. I assume there is a post count that I must reach before I can PM folks.
Jeff

 

[SonofMonica]

Thanks guys for your response. Now I will feel less uncomfortable chiming in on threads while I am learning. “Separated brethren” sounds much better than apostate.

Rick, no offense intended with my Episcopal/ Buddhist line in the OP. I should have put a smiley face after that. It was kind of tongue in cheek. It’s just that, despite having a wonderful prayer book, the praxis of many Episcopal churches stretches the limits of orthodoxy in my opinion. (The Fr. Cutie episode is just a minor example) So much so that I am embarrassed to tell people what church I go to. That is not a good place to be and it makes you ask the question….”Why do I stay here?” Which is why I am looking.

A side note on my Episcopal dilemma……My sister and brother in law live in the Boston area and do not have a church home. My father and mother were visiting them for Easter. Dad, the devout Presbyterian, wanted to take everyone to Sunday services. He asked me if he should take them to an Episcopal church in the area since the Episcopal church in my state(SC) has done so much for me. I had to say no and told him that you just can’t count on solid traditional Christianity being taught in every Episcopal church. It varies by region depending upon the leadership. I told him that to be safe he should take them to a Catholic or Orthodox church. He looked at me like I had 4 heads. I told him that the days of expecting traditional Christian teaching from all protestant denominations was a thing of the past. A traditional protestant has to be very careful what church they attend. But, in my experience, you can count on Catholic and Orthodox churches to be much more consistent in their praxis.

I know this makes me sound very traditional. I guess I am….

Jeff

As I alluded to earlier, I can sympathize with this very much. When I was going to the Episcopal Church, I was asked “Oh, so you go to the gay church?”

 

[SonofMonica]

Thanks for the encouragement SonofMonica. As I learn more, I will take you up on your kind offer to PM you to discuss your conversion process. I assume there is a post count that I must reach before I can PM folks.
Jeff

I dunno if there is a post count minimum or not! Oh well, this is your thread, so you can post to it as many times as you want, I suppose and we can continue to talk here.

 

[Stouts989]

I told him that the days of expecting traditional Christian teaching from all protestant denominations was a thing of the past. A traditional protestant has to be very careful what church they attend.

Unfortunately this is very true

Why, as any Christian, its so import to study God’s Word and know it forwards and backwards.

Welcome to the forums Jeff. So far this thread has been very encouraging!

 

[DavidJEastman]

Jeff, I hope you don’t mind a reply from another “first poster,” but I found your question very interesting and wanted to engage. I have several devout Protestant friends and my wife was born and raised Lutheran. It is because of her and many of these friends that I am finally embracing my Catholicism.

To start, here is some of my background: I’m a 47 year old cradle Catholic, happily married for 21+ years, 3 mostly grown kids. Very involved in my church as a youth, “drifted” away as a young adult because of “all the rules” (never stopped attending, but became more of a spectator and “buffet” Catholic picking and choosing what “I” wanted to believe), started my journey back to Catholicism when my first child was born (decided I needed to do more than talk the talk), began “investigating” my faith when I couldn’t answer questions about “MY” church that my then Lutheran wife was asking me during her journey to Catholicism, and now realize I’m just beginning to embrace what it means to “Be Catholic.”

The answer to your question is just as the others here have said, YES your are a Christian. Now, to back it up “officially” I recommend you read from the Catechism the following:

PART ONE - THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION TWO - THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH
CHAPTER THREE - I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT
ARTICLE 9 - “I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH”
Paragraph 3. The Church Is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic

Here’s a link - scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#831

Specifically, article 838 says “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. "With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”

In your post you mentioned how we Christians have different meanings for certain terms, which is true, but I have found in my studies this is mostly due to ignorance (usually on my part).

(For example, one holy Catholic and apostolic church means “Catholic Church” to you while I have always viewed that as the body of all believing Christians with Christ as the head.)

Again, from the Catechism, article 830 The word “catholic” means “universal,” in the sense of “according to the totality” or "in keeping with the whole." So I think your Catholic friends have misspoken.

my wife and I know that we will probably need to make a change soon. She is perfectly willing (and hoping) to go to the Catholic Church. Many of my fellow Episcopalians (Lay,Bishop, and Priest) have crossed over to the Catholic Church. Before my family makes such a move, I need to do some more investigating, so that is why I am here.

This is a big step (my prayers are with you and your family), one that took my wife 18 years, two RCIA courses, and LOTS of prayer to decide on (she now teaches RCIA). And even though I’m a cradle Catholic, I submit that I am only now just scratching the surface on what it means to be a “true Catholic.”

If I could be so bold as to make a recommendation; I facilitate a bible study for our parish (I know, a Catholic bible study, who would have guessed ) and we discovered a program two years ago that taught me more about “being Catholic” and God’s plan for me than I learned in my previous 45 years of life. The course is called “The Great Adventure, A Journey Through the Bible” and it’s presented on DVD, CD, or seminar by Jeff Cavins (former Protestant Minister, bible scholar, and nationally recognized public speaker). I won’t go into all the details, but this course literally transformed our lives and ignited a fire and hunger for God’s word in our new parish. As you continue discerning your call to the Catholic Church, this may help.

greatadventureonline.com/

Thanks for your post; you got me out of my “lurking” status into an active role (I guess a call to discipleship). Please don’t hesitate to PM me if either my wife or I can assist in any way.

God Bless you and your family,

David

PS I don’t get any kick backs from the Great Adventure people, it’s just so good I have to talk about it.