Sermon: No Salvation outside the Catholic Church

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Moses never joined the Catholic Church while on earth, are you saying Moses is in hell?

Or are you saying that starting at the moment of the Crucifixion, that every devout Jew who died without having heard of Christ is now in hell?

Or would you set the turning point at some other event, like the resurrection or pentecost? No matter where you set it, you’ll be condemning holy people who never heard of Christ to hell.
 
I am trying to see where he is different that Fr. Feeney who was excommunicated. I also take issue with him calling everyone that does not see this dogma as he does a heretic and outside the Church (also something that runs counter to Church teaching). Since the Holy Father does not see things his way if he too is a heretic.

Finally, I wonder where he gets the idea that all worship outside of the Catholic Church is nonsense that means nothing. I have never seen that in Church teaching. Perhaps God told him personally.

I would recommend he be taught by the Church before he teaches.
 
pnewton said:
Finally, I wonder where he gets the idea that all worship outside of the Catholic Church is nonsense that means nothing. I have never seen that in Church teaching. Perhaps God told him personally.
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Actually, pnewton, this was very common before Vatican II when I grew up. My father was Protestant and as a child, my brother and sister and myself, were terrified when he got sick that he would die and go to hell. One of the best things to come out of Vatican II was a cessation of this stark and dire belief.

A belief that went along with this was that Catholics were forbidden to attend Protestant services. As late as 1967 when my grandmother died, we had to ask permission of our parish priest to attend her services at her church.

My grandfather was a Catholic and he married my Protestant and divorced grandmother sometime in the 1910s. He was excommunicated from the Church and from his family. The only way I got to know the Catholic side of my father’s family was because my great-aunt on my mother’s side was friends with my great-aunt on my father’s side. We saw them once a year near All Saint’s Day when families spent time whitewashing family graves and putting out flowers. My aunt would take the three of us across the cemetery to visit.

I am not making this up. There was no salvation outside the Catholic Church prior to Vatican II and I give thanks to God that we no longer have this belief.
 
Actually it is declared dogma of the Church, in those words.

Outside the Church there is no salvation.

So we should defend it in those words. Support it. Love it.

A Catholic is someone who loves the Church, and who listens to the Holy Spirit when the Spirit declares dogmas. And when He does so, we listen and speak them in the same language and words the Holy Spirit uses.

There are possibilties such as baptism of desire, perfect love of God. And so forth.

But effectively, through these, you belong, you are inside, not out before death.
 
Are you saying that Vatican II changed a definitive teaching of the Church? This was taught by the Popes and Fathers of the Church for 19 centuries. Was this all of a sudden changed at Vatican II? Do you honestly believe that? If so, what other Dogmas of the Church do you also believe are dispensible and wil be done away with in the future? The Trinity? The Divinity of Jesus? In your opinion, is it wrong for a Caholic today, to believe what was taught for the 19 centuries prior to Vatican II?

Also, as an fyi - the priest whose sermons are posted on Audio Sancto are ALL priest of good standing within the Catholic Church and have FULL faculties. None of the priest on Audio Sancto are considered to be outside the Church, or in an irregular status.
 
brotherhrolf said:
Actually, pnewton, this was very common before Vatican II when I grew up. My father was Protestant and as a child, my brother and sister and myself, were terrified when he got sick that he would die and go to hell. One of the best things to come out of Vatican II was a cessation of this stark and dire belief.

A belief that went along with this was that Catholics were forbidden to attend Protestant services. As late as 1967 when my grandmother died, we had to ask permission of our parish priest to attend her services at her church.

My grandfather was a Catholic and he married my Protestant and divorced grandmother sometime in the 1910s. He was excommunicated from the Church and from his family. The only way I got to know the Catholic side of my father’s family was because my great-aunt on my mother’s side was friends with my great-aunt on my father’s side. We saw them once a year near All Saint’s Day when families spent time whitewashing family graves and putting out flowers. My aunt would take the three of us across the cemetery to visit.

I am not making this up. There was no salvation outside the Catholic Church prior to Vatican II and I give thanks to God that we no longer have this belief.
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Sounds like what I was taught as well back in the days of the early to mid fifties. We were told point blank never to even set foot in a Church of another faith, Christian or otherwise because God would not be found there and we would be putting our souls in danger merely from the proximity to the unbelievers. The apparent current belief that all faiths are equal, valid and pleasing to God is a relatively recent development within the Church. We were taught that those who never knew the faith THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN, could be saved, but those who had heard of it and rejected it were doomed.
 
NeelyAnn said:
Are you saying that Vatican II changed a definitive teaching of the Church? This was taught by the Popes and Fathers of the Church for 19 centuries. Was this all of a sudden changed at Vatican II? Do you honestly believe that? If so, what other Dogmas of the Church do you also believe are dispensible and wil be done away with in the future? The Trinity? The Divinity of Jesus? In your opinion, is it wrong for a Caholic today, to believe what was taught for the 19 centuries prior to Vatican II?

Also, as an fyi - the priest whose sermons are posted on Audio Sancto are ALL priest of good standing within the Catholic Church and have FULL faculties. None of the priest on Audio Sancto are considered to be outside the Church, or in an irregular status.
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From what I heard Fr. Feeney was against baptism of blood and desire, this priest is not.

Fr. Feeney was disciplined and in trouble, this priest is not and is good standing.

There’s the difference. 🙂

Ott’s says baptism by blood and desire are sent. fidei proxima, that is a doctrine which is regarded by theologians generally as a truth of Revelation, but which has not yet been finally promulgated as such. So Feeney had some room for maneuver, his opinions could be considered just barely possible, and he was in the end disciplined not for his beliefs, but for disobedience to his superiors.

However he and his are not the subject of this thread at all.

The priest above is in good standing and is teaching very traditional Catholic teaching, on means and method, and how we should be fearful for the salvation of those who are outside of the Church visibly in this life… we have to work out our own salvations in fear and trembling… the few are the saved… it is -not- easier outside, and squeaking in at the last minute. At all.
 
Neil_Anthony said:
Moses never joined the Catholic Church while on earth, are you saying Moses is in hell?

Or are you saying that starting at the moment of the Crucifixion, that every devout Jew who died without having heard of Christ is now in hell?

Or would you set the turning point at some other event, like the resurrection or pentecost? No matter where you set it, you’ll be condemning holy people who never heard of Christ to hell.
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I always find this argument to be unrelated and completely nonsensible. The sermon is referring to the Catholic Church and thus those who are outside the Church since it’s founding. It is not discussing those before the founding of the Church.

None the less, to answer your question, see the following from the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X (published around 1911):

**27 Q: Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church? **

A: No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.

**28 Q: How, then, were the Patriarchs of old, the Prophets, and the other just men of the Old Testament, saved? **

A: The just of the Old Testament were saved in virtue of the faith they had in Christ to come, by means of which they spiritually belonged to the Church.

cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/pius/pcreed09.htm

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, when discussing the forthcoming Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church referred to the catechism of Saint Pius X.:
  • “The faith, as such, is always the same. Therefore, St. Pius X’s catechism always retains its value, … There can be persons or groups that feel more comfortable with St. Pius X’s catechism. It should not be forgotten that that Catechism stemmed from a text that was prepared by the Pope himself [Pius X] when he was Bishop of Mantua. The text was the fruit of the personal catechetical experience of Giuseppe Sarto, whose characteristics were simplicity of exposition and depth of content. Also because of this, St. Pius X’s catechism might have friends in the future .”[1]*
 
Shin said:
From what I heard Fr. Feeney was against baptism of blood and desire, this priest is not.
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He did say that even though others may have true Sacraments, they are of no avail. That gave me pause. It also contradicts the Church’s teaching on the validity of Protestant baptism.
 
NeelyAnn said:
no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.
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Sounds like you’re saying that Moses and Abraham are in hell. Either that, or you’re saying that they were Catholics. Which is it?

The fact is, they weren’t Catholics, and they’re in heaven. You’ll come back and say that they’re part of the Church. Of course they are, and if Jews who lived 1000 years before Christ can be part of the Catholic church, then so can many other people, and your claims are misleading!
 
NeelyAnn said:
I always find this argument to be unrelated and completely nonsensible. The sermon is referring to the Catholic Church and thus those who are outside the Church since it’s founding. It is not discussing those before the founding of the Church.

None the less, to answer your question, see the following from the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X (published around 1911):

**27 Q: Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church? **

A: No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.

**28 Q: How, then, were the Patriarchs of old, the Prophets, and the other just men of the Old Testament, saved? **

A: The just of the Old Testament were saved in virtue of the faith they had in Christ to come, by means of which they spiritually belonged to the Church.
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I find consideration of the patriarchs of value in this issue. It is not nonsense unless one likes to disregard data that one does not like. In general, it is uncharitable and counter-productive to call some’s idea nonsense. I am sure you would not like it.

Since the Patriarchs spiritually belong to the Church, it shows the possibility that one can belong to the Catholic Church spiritually with out being connected directly to Her. They are inside the Ark…spiritually. Now take Pope Gregory’s quote. When he made that statedment, there was no baptism except from the Catholic Church. One could be a schismatic or heretic, but one was first baptized into the Church. Today, that is simply not so. We have data that Pope Gregory did not know and could not have imagined. He did not disregard the Patriarchs, for he knew of them. He could not have know of Protestants, therefore he could not have commented on them. That is why we must of necessity look to our Holy Father today for leadership and guidance. One would be imprudent to think that all Protestants are going to Heaven, or that they have a good chance of going to Heaven. They lack the Sacramental Grace that is found in the Catholic Chuch. It is possible that the are culpable in rejecting the Church and thus can not even be said to belong spiritually. They may have mortal sin that lacks both Sacramental Confession and perfect contrition. At best it is hard to be in this Ark for those who do not have the avenues of Grace found in Her. But all that are not on the roll of the Catholic Church are not doomed to Hell.

That is not what the Catholic Church teaches.

I find the anonimity of the priest on this site interesting. For all we know this was not a priest, or one in good standing with Rome. The site provides no documentation on a matter of princiiple. Okay, if that’s what they want. But then they have to understand that the speakers of these audio files can not be assumed any certain authority.
 
I have always found it amusing how even traditional Catholics can’t seem to accept the dogma “Outside the Church There is No salvation.”

BOTTOM LINE: You must be Catholic to get into heaven. If you die and are outside the Church you won’t make it to heaven.
 
No, that’s wrong… there’s no salvation inside the Catholic Church! :sad_bye:

😉
 
pnewton said:
He did say that even though others may have true Sacraments, they are of no avail. That gave me pause. It also contradicts the Church’s teaching on the validity of Protestant baptism.
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He was quoting a saint on that – They don’t mean it in the direct sense of non-functionality you’re probably thinking they mean it.
 
From the comments there appears to be a lot of misreading into what the priest is actually saying I’d like to add. 🙂
 
pnewton said:
I One could be a schismatic or heretic, but one was first baptized into the Church. Today, that is simply not so. We have data that Pope Gregory did not know and could not have imagined.
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No, actually, Pope Gregory would be familiar with the controversies over baptisms by heretics (the simple equivalents of Protestants of the past). 🙂
 
Neil_Anthony said:
Sounds like you’re saying that Moses and Abraham are in hell. Either that, or you’re saying that they were Catholics. Which is it?

The fact is, they weren’t Catholics, and they’re in heaven. You’ll come back and say that they’re part of the Church. Of course they are, and if Jews who lived 1000 years before Christ can be part of the Catholic church, then so can many other people, and your claims are misleading!
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You’re attacking a strawman. No one has suggested that the figures of the Old Testament are in hell.

Catholic doctrine teaches that the prophets and patriarchs of the Old Testament were raised from the bosom of Abraham to heaven by Christ through his descent to the dead and subsequent resurrection. They were part of the Church implicitly, and so could be saved. They denied nothing of the Church’s doctrine but lived in anticipation of it.

Catholic dogma holds that no one who obstinately denies an article of Catholic doctrine (i.e.a heretic) or obstinately remains outside of communion with the Roman Pontiff (ie. a schismatic) can be saved. I know this is going to pain a great number of people, and cause much wailing and gnashing of teeth and much angry protest and misinformed ranting, but I’m now going to quote the teaching of the Church’s Magisterium on this subject, which all Christians are bound to believe:
*
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the “eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her”* - 11th Session of the Council of Florence
*
“Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” *- Pope St. Gregory the Great

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” - Fourth Lateran Council

“Teach that just as there is only one God, one Christ, one Holy Spirit, so there is also only one truth which is divinely revealed. There is only one divine faith which is the beginning of salvation for mankind and the basis of all justification, the faith by which the just person lives and without which it is impossible to please God and come to the community of His children (Romans 1; Hebrews 11; Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 8). There is only one true, holy, Catholic Church, which is the Apostolic Roman Church. There is only one See founded on Peter by the word of the Lord, outside of which we cannot find either true faith or eternal salvation. He who does not have the Church for a mother cannot have God for a father, and whoever abandons the See of Peter on which the Church is established trusts falsely that he is in the Church. … Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.” - Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quidem

“This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” - Pope Leo XIII, Annum Ingressi Summus

“The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation… Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” - Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos

These are just a few examples. This teaching is consistently and repeatedly defined by Popes and Ecumenical Councils. Anyone who takes the Catholic faith seriously will listen to this teaching.

Now for a prebuttal. Since I’ve had this discussion before, I can already tell you what the reaction to this post is going to be. The reactions will fall into one of three categories.
  1. Some hysterical neo-Cath will quote the catechism or some modern document of the Magisterium in order to repudiate the Church’s past Magisterium, as if they contradict one another. In particular, they will use the state of “invincible ignorance” mentioned in the Catechism to suggest that, in some incoherent fantasy world, people who deny Catholic doctrine or refuse to enter the Church somehow fall into a group which by definition has never encountered the Church.
  2. Someone will say that “we can’t judge” who’s going to heaven, as if the Church’s dogma somehow pertains to individual people instead of to general principles. Anyone who repeats the Church’s dogma is being mean an insensitive and disobeying Christ by “judging” others.
  3. Some slightly more intelligent person will say that “No Salvation Outside the Church” is just some general rule or norm and that God can choose to rescind this norm and save someone outside of the Church. The problem here is that Catholic dogma is both immutable and “Divinely revealed”. God doesn’t change his mind or falsify the truths which he has revealed to humanity.
 
Dogmatist said:
Catholic dogma holds that no one who obstinately denies an article of Catholic doctrine (i.e.a heretic) or obstinately remains outside of communion with the Roman Pontiff (ie. a schismatic) can be saved.
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Thats a far cry from saying that all non-Catholics go to hell! No disagreement with you there.
 
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