Sermon: No Salvation outside the Catholic Church

[Dogmatist]

Thats a far cry from saying that all non-Catholics go to hell! No disagreement with you there.

Well, that’s just boring! Let’s try to find something on which we disagree, then.

Catholic doctrine also says that anyone who fails to enter the Catholic Church and is culpable for this failure cannot be saved. Only those who labour in ignorance of the Catholic religion can be united implicitly to the Church, not those who know of her and fail to enter.

 

[NeelyAnn]

Sounds like you’re saying that Moses and Abraham are in hell. Either that, or you’re saying that they were Catholics. Which is it?

The fact is, they weren’t Catholics, and they’re in heaven. You’ll come back and say that they’re part of the Church. Of course they are, and if Jews who lived 1000 years before Christ can be part of the Catholic church, then so can many other people, and your claims are misleading!

I am puzzeled by your reply. I think you miss read. I pasted a quote that was taken straight from the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X. I also gave the link to the Catechism online. That particular link, I believe, is to Jimmy Aikens site.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

I find the anonimity of the priest on this site interesting. For all we know this was not a priest, or one in good standing with Rome. The site provides no documentation on a matter of princiiple. Okay, if that’s what they want. But then they have to understand that the speakers of these audio files can not be assumed any certain authority.

He’s actually a well known and much loved Priest with faculties from his local Bishop! His talk on this subject is dead on and quite comprehensive. It’s amazing how far we’ve strayed when a Catholic forum such as this has people outrightly denying this solemn teaching! The posts in this regard clearly show how since Vatican II there has been a rupture.

 

[Lutheranteach]

Catholic dogma holds that no one who obstinately denies an article of Catholic doctrine (i.e.a heretic) or obstinately remains outside of communion with the Roman Pontiff (ie. a schismatic) can be saved. I know this is going to pain a great number of people, and cause much wailing and gnashing of teeth and much angry protest and misinformed ranting, but I’m now going to quote the teaching of the Church’s Magisterium on this subject, which all Christians are bound to believe:

Than I would say the percentage of Catholics meeting this requirement is in the single digits

 

[NeelyAnn]

I find consideration of the patriarchs of value in this issue. It is not nonsense unless one likes to disregard data that one does not like. In general, it is uncharitable and counter-productive to call some’s idea nonsense. I am sure you would not like it.

Since the Patriarchs spiritually belong to the Church, it shows the possibility that one can belong to the Catholic Church spiritually with out being connected directly to Her. They are inside the Ark…spiritually. Now take Pope Gregory’s quote. When he made that statedment, there was no baptism except from the Catholic Church. One could be a schismatic or heretic, but one was first baptized into the Church. Today, that is simply not so. We have data that Pope Gregory did not know and could not have imagined. He did not disregard the Patriarchs, for he knew of them. He could not have know of Protestants, therefore he could not have commented on them. That is why we must of necessity look to our Holy Father today for leadership and guidance. One would be imprudent to think that all Protestants are going to Heaven, or that they have a good chance of going to Heaven. They lack the Sacramental Grace that is found in the Catholic Chuch. It is possible that the are culpable in rejecting the Church and thus can not even be said to belong spiritually. They may have mortal sin that lacks both Sacramental Confession and perfect contrition. At best it is hard to be in this Ark for those who do not have the avenues of Grace found in Her. But all that are not on the roll of the Catholic Church are not doomed to Hell.

That is not what the Catholic Church teaches.

I find the anonimity of the priest on this site interesting. For all we know this was not a priest, or one in good standing with Rome. The site provides no documentation on a matter of princiiple. Okay, if that’s what they want. But then they have to understand that the speakers of these audio files can not be assumed any certain authority.

I quoted Pope Pius X at the beginning of the 20th century and he certainly knew of Protestants. I am not sure what quote of Pope Gregory you are speaking of.

Again, I said nothing - I simply quoted the CATECHISM and it certainly IS what the Church teaches.

I am not sure why you have such a problem with the Catechism. This is an approved Catechism of the Church and, as stated by Pope Benedict XVI (when Cardinal Ratzinger - see above), is still relevant.

As for Audio Sancto - all priests on Audio Sancto are priest in good standing and I do happen to know who many of them are - as I am sure that many others on here do. I will not disclose who they are because their website request that this not be done. However, in some of the sermons, some of the priests do identify themselves. In addition, I am sure an internet search could also provide you with names, as well. Our priest, at our diocesan Church is personally familiar with many of the priests from Audio Sancto. Our priest also listens to their sermons. For any layman/internet theologian to presume that they know more than them is preposterous.

 

[HelenRose]

This is always such a fun debate.

Here is my take on the subject:

I am not to presume God’s mercy.
I can not know who is in the Catholic Church at the time of their death.
I can not know the soul and mind of another person.

God alone is the Judge. God alone will decide. God is just and reasonable.

It is our responsibility to love people into the Catholic Church not nit-pic them out of it.

 

[pnewton]

He was quoting a saint on that – They don’t mean it in the direct sense of non-functionality you’re probably thinking they mean it.

That is possible. It is easy to misunderstand something based on terms that are used differently. Such ambiguity of terms may well be at the heart of misunderstanding here.

 

[pnewton]

He’s actually a well known and much loved Priest with faculties from his local Bishop

I am happy that you are in on this secret. I only know what I read and what I heard.

It’s amazing how far we’ve strayed when a Catholic forum such as this has people outrightly denying this solemn teaching!.

I missed where I this was done. As for, I do not know the mind of God. I will stick with this:

“However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.” (CCC #818)

“Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity. (CCC #819)

"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter. Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.” (CCC #838)

 

[JustaServant]

Some Christians (like me) have gone from Catholic to Evangelical, and then when age and wisdom catch up with us, back to Catholic. But some Christians, are born in the Christian wilderness. They have never been in a liturgical, let alone a Catholic church. I was around them for twenty years.
Some of these people are born in the “Christian wilderness”. They have never been in a liturgical, let alone a Catholic church. And when they walk into one, it can be kind of scary for them.
They see statues, stained glass windows. They smell incense. They see an altar, kneelers, people genuflecting, crossing themselves, holy water, crucifixes. Instead of a preacher, they see a priest in a robe.People aren’t standing around talking, they’re in silent prayer. They are required to respond in prayer, creeds. Just not sitting in a pew staring.
Please try to imagine the response of someone born in the “Little Church on the Evangelical Prairie,” it’s like stepping off a spaceship onto another planet. Through no fault of their own, they are without the Sacraments.
Generations of conditioning have produced this. His father was ________, his father was a ________.
So, are these people damned? They have known nothing else but thier little country ‘church in the wildwood’.
I, for one, am put my trust in a merciful God.

 

[pnewton]

I quoted Pope Pius X at the beginning of the 20th century and he certainly knew of Protestants. I am not sure what quote of Pope Gregory you are speaking of.

Again, I said nothing - I simply quoted the CATECHISM and it certainly IS what the Church teaches.

I am not sure why you have such a problem with the Catechism.

I have nothing against it. I do not know why you think I do. In fact I just quoted it. The quote of St Gregory the Great was in the sermon.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

He did say that even though others may have true Sacraments, they are of no avail. *That gave me pause. * It also contradicts the Church’s teaching on the validity of Protestant baptism.

What you heard was the Priest* quoting *St. Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Universal Church, that gave you pause. Here’s the quote:

**St. Augustine (354-430): **"*No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. *Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the Name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church."

Regarding your comment about Protestants being able to confer a valid baptsim, which you said was contrary to what St. Augustine said, we have to keep the following in mind: Since the Catholic sacrament of baptism can be performed by anyone (a heretic, an infidel, etc.), it is possible for a Protestant to confer it validly. However, when a heretic receives baptism - even a valid baptism - he does not receive it unto salvation. The baptism might be valid, but a heretic does not receive grace through that valid sacrament. Why? Because right faith is necessary a person above the age of reason to receive grace through baptism. Right faith is not necessary to receive the sacrament validly, but it is necessary to receive grace through the sacrament. Let me explain…

Baptism produces a two-fold effect: It prints an indelible character upon the soul, and infuses sanctifying grace. When a heretic receives a valid baptism, he receives the character, but not sanctifying grace. Why? Because right faith is necessary for a person to receive sanctifying grace.

**St. Thomas: Whether faith is required on the part of the one baptized: **

I answer that, As appears from what has been said above (63, 6; 66, 9) Baptism produces a twofold effect in the soul, viz. the character and grace. Therefore in two ways may a thing be necessary for Baptism. First, as something without which grace, which is the ultimate effect of the sacrament, cannot be had. And thus right faith is necessary for Baptism, because, as it appears from Romans 3:22, the justice of God is by faith of Jesus Christ.

Secondly, something is required of necessity for Baptism, because without it the baptismal character cannot be imprinted And thus right faith is not necessary in the one baptized any more than in the one who baptizes: provided the other conditions are fulfilled which are essential to the sacrament. For the sacrament is not perfected by the righteousness of the minister or of the recipient of Baptism, but by the power of God.

Reply to Objection 1. Our Lord is speaking there of Baptism as bringing us to salvation by giving us sanctifying grace: which of course cannot be without right faith: wherefore He says pointedly: “He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved.” newadvent.org/summa/4068.htm#article8

So, right faith is not necessary for baptism to be valid and produce the character; but right faith is necessary for baptism to give grace - and it is grace, not the character, that saves.

Now, it is possible for a person to be baptized outside of the Church (by a Protestant minister, for example) and not be in obstinate denial of a dogma. In this case (and God alone can judge such things), the person would receive both the character and sanctifying grace through baptism.

We hear a lot today about the “common baptism” we have with various non-Catholic sects, but we do not also share a common faith (the Catholic faith) the common baptism we share with those outside the Church wil not benefit them. Without right faith, baptism will not save anyone.

 

[FAB]

Well, that’s just boring! Let’s try to find something on which we disagree, then.

Catholic doctrine also says that anyone who fails to enter the Catholic Church and is culpable for this failure cannot be saved. Only those who labour in ignorance of the Catholic religion can be united implicitly to the Church, not those who know of her and fail to enter.

The Catichism of the Church says otherwise On Echiminicalism

Catechism of the Catholic Church
811
“. . . It is Christ who, though the Holy Spirit, makes his Church one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, and it is he who calls her to realize each of these qualities.”

813
“The Church is one because of her source: ‘the highest exemplar and source of this mystery is the unity, in the Trinity of Persons, of one God, the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit.’ The Church is one because of her founder: for ‘the Word made flesh, the prince of peace, reconciled all men to God by the cross, . . . restoring the unity of all in one people and one body.’ The Church is one because of her ‘soul’: ‘It is the Holy Spirit, dwelling in those who believe and pervading and ruling over the entire Church, who brings about that wonderful communion of the faithful and joins them together so intimately in Christ that he is the principle of the Church’s unity.’ Unity is of the essence of the Church.”

815
"What are (the) bonds of unity? Above all, charity ‘binds everything together in perfect harmony.’ But the unity of the pilgrim Church is also assured by the visible bonds of communion:

profession of one faith received from the Apostles;

common celebration of divine worship, especially of the sacraments;

apostolic succession through the sacraments of Holy Orders, maintaining the fraternal concord of God’s family."
818
“However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . **All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.” **

819
"‘Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth’ are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: ‘the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.’ Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to ‘Catholic unity.’"

820
“‘Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time.’ Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: ‘That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me.’ The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.”

855
“The Church’s mission stimulates efforts towards Christian unity. Indeed, ‘divisions among Christians prevent the Church from realizing in practice the fullness of catholicity proper to her in those of her sons who, though joined to her by Baptism, are yet separated from full communion with her. Furthermore, the Church herself finds it more difficult to express in actual life her full catholicity in all its aspects.’”

Peace,
FAB

 

[whatischarity]

“However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

What I gather is that every human that is saved is saved through Jesus Christ and no other. Jesus founded a Church and it is through His Church that graces of the Spirit come to humans so all who are saved are saved through Jesus Christ through His Church whether they are aware of this mechanism of salvation or not. In our unique times when Christendom has been so sadly split into factions, it is more difficult for individuals to identify the Church that Jesus founded. To the degree that the teachings of church mirror the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, that church has the abilbity to guide men to salvation through the graces earned on the cross by Jesus distributed by the spirit through the Roman Catholic Church. Only if an individual knew that the Roman Catholic Church was the Church of Jesus Christ and obstinately choose to remain outside the Church of Jesus Christ would such a one be culpable. I think right now.

 

[Brendan]

The Catichism of the Church says otherwise On Echiminicalism

Peace,
FAB

Fab,

Your quotes did not actually refute Dogmatist’s post.

The CCC correctly mentioned that all Baptized persons are correctly called “Christians”. But that is not a quarantor of Salvation ( Catholics are not OSAS).

A person without Sanctifing Grace, but who has the character of Baptism on their soul is still a Christian. No one doubts that. But it is the lack of Sanctifiy Grace is what is at issue, and the sections of the CCC you posted did not address that issue.

There is also no doubt that a person outside the visable Church can be saved. Baptism of Desire speaks to that. A person who does not have the opportunity to learn that the Visable Body of the Christ resides in the Catholic Church is not culpable. They are not held to Judgement on what they could not know.

But Dogmatist specifically EXCLUDED those people, and only referred to those who where culpable of actively rejecting the Church.

They are of course Christians, but carry the mortal sin of schism and\or heresy. And someone who dies unrepenant of their mortal sins does not attain salvation.

 

[HisWill777]

Ok, so most people in the US, probably the world, are born into whichever religion they are part of, right? So you’re telling me God would set up a system where if you’re not part of the “club”, you will go to hell??? That is outrageous, even if that’s what the Church teaches. .Do you know that’s exactly what cults teach followers to keep them from leaving?? I believe the Bible. Jesus died for ALL of our sins. We need to be baptized, profess our faith in Jesus Christ, and walk in His ways. Kinda strange that all those letters in the NT to different peoples and Churches, and there was no EMPHASIS on being part of a single Church to be saved. Seems like the apostles spent alot of time emphasizing faith and good works to me. If Church membership were CRITICAL to salvation, wouldn’t this have been repeated over and over and over and over??? The Bible isn’t trying to TRICK anyone, ALL are desired saved, so WHY isn’t Church membership declared as a key to salvation everytime Faith or baptism, or good works are mentioned??? Sorry, I may myself convert to the Catholic Church, but this makes NO sense at all to me. My grandmother just passed, she was Lutheran, was deeply religious, prayed incessantly, spoke with the pastor incessantly, confessed her sins to him, etc. and I guarantee you she is, or will be in Heaven.

If what you all say is true, wouldn’t it be CLEARLY spelled out in the Bible for ALL to read and be saved?? I grew up Lutheran and hadn’t heard this declaration until in my 30’s. Sorry, just because many of you were born into the Church and you follow it’s teachings doesn’t make you the “Chosen”. Isn’t relying on that what keeps getting the Jews in trouble?

 

[pnewton]

Ok, so most people in the US, probably the world, are born into whichever religion they are part of, right? So you’re telling me God would set up a system where if you’re not part of the “club”, you will go to hell??? That is outrageous, even if that’s what the Church teaches. .Do you know that’s exactly what cults teach followers to keep them from leaving??

That is why one should stick to what the Catholic Church teaches and not be confused by the different ideas that individuals hole. I recommend to anyone that when in doubt, they read the Catechism. That is why I quoted it.

More of us than you might expect are not born into the religion they are. I myself was born and raise hard-core Southern Baptist and remained so into my late thirties.

 

[archangel04]

I have always found it amusing how even traditional Catholics can’t seem to accept the dogma “Outside the Church There is No salvation.”

BOTTOM LINE:** You must be Catholic to get into heaven. If you die and are outside the Church you won’t make it to heaven./**QUOTE]
Wow I didn’t realize you had the final say on someone’s soul? How did you get the title of perfect judge?

Sorry buddy, but there is salvation outside the Catholic church, what happens to those who never hear the word of God? An example someone in the deep jungles of the Amazon? 15 year old dies from a bite and never got to know Jesus, is he damned forever? Not sure, that is up to the Father God Almighty, not you! For those who do know the full truth, “no salvation outside the Church” applies to us.

 

[Dogmatist]

The Catichism of the Church says otherwise On Echiminicalism

Nothing in that quote, including what you’ve put in bold, contradicts to any degree what I have written. I think the problem is that you are failing to apply the hermeneutic of continuity. You’re interpreting those (admittedly vague) statements in a way which contradicts the perennial teaching of the Church, while I insist on interpreting them strictly in the light of the Church’s dogmatic teaching. Let’s take the first bold section:

"All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

This statement clearly means that all those who have been baptized have had a certain indelible character placed upon them, and can be called Christians.

Certain people read into this statement things that simply aren’t there. Here’s what the statement doesn’t say:

• All people termed “Christians” under this definition can be saved
• The baptismal character is the only thing necessary for salvation
• People are not severed from the Body of the Church through heresy or schism

If the statement said any of these things, it would of course be heretical. However, it was carefully constructed to avoid heresy while taking as positive a tone as possible. That was the approach of the Council, whatever one may think of it.

Now for the second part of the bold statement:
**
“‘Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth’ are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: ‘the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.’ Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to ‘Catholic unity.’” **

This is another carefully constructed statement, which contains no heresy, but has been taken to imply heresy by many who wish to distort the church’s teachings.

Interpreted in the light of Catholic dogma, the statement “Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation” can only mean two things:

• The Holy Spirit uses the elements of truth and sanctification found in these communities to bring its members into the Catholic Church
• There are many who reside in these Churches who have received baptism and are not culpable for rejecting Catholic doctrine (eg. infants) and can therefore be saved.

If interpreted in this way, it is totally compatible with Catholic doctrine. Sadly, this statement, because of its ambiguity, is frequently used by heretics to undermine the Catholic teaching and show that the Church has “changed” her teachings. It is deeply troubling that, even after the interventions of Pope Benedict XVI, these evil and destructive distortions of the Council are ongoing.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

I am happy that you are in on this secret.

I don’t find your insinuations amusing or charitable. AudioSancto makes it clear why they do not reveal the names of the Priests featured there. There is no “secret” - the only reason I know of this Priest is because he gave a lenten mission at the novus ordo I used to attend about a decade ago.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

If Church membership were CRITICAL to salvation, wouldn’t this have been repeated over and over and over and over??? The Bible isn’t trying to TRICK anyone, ALL are desired saved, so WHY isn’t Church membership declared as a key to salvation everytime Faith or baptism, or good works are mentioned??? Sorry, I may myself convert to the Catholic Church, but this makes NO sense at all to me.

It is in the Bible. Paraphrasing, Jesus states that ‘he who hears you hears Me and he who rejects you rejects Me and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.’ If you positively (deliberately) reject the teachings of the Church you’re rejecting Christ and such a one cannot be saved unless they repent before death.