Seven Days that Shook the Vatican

[puzzleannie]

Yes its NCR but it is John Allen who is in my book the best oberver in the American Catholic press on all things Vatican
ncronline.org/print/19003

what is your take? is the Catholic Church moving into the “persecuted minority” role and circling the wagons? or is the current climate in which the Church in Europe functions the natural continuing historical development of European nationalism collapsing into the black hole of the EU? His analysis is as always informed and thought provoking even on the points upon which we disagree.

The other sharp eyed if milder tongued observer of Vatican affairs is Raymond Arroyo and it occured to me a broadcast conversation between them on this topic would be a great EWTN offering, and deserving of even wider air time. If this turned into a panel discussion, who else should be invited to participate? Give your nominees here:

 

[Joe_5859]

Great article. Thanks for posting. I agree with you 100% about John Allen. The NCR is generally a pretty skewed source of information, but Allen is surprisingly insightful and balanced in his reporting. I don’t always agree with him, but he seems willing to do what many reporters are not: give the facts without editorializing them.

I think his observation is an interesting one. I’ll have to give it some thought, but it is worth considering. The fact that Europe is now effectively “missionary territory” should cause anyone familiar with Western history to at least raise an eyebrow. It really is a unique moment in history.

Of course, it is somewhat interesting to think of the 1 billion + member Catholic Church as a “minority”, but from a cultural standpoint, it really is.

That would be really neat to see John Allen and Raymond Arroyo do a show together.

 

[Kaninchen]

Yet another American who doesn’t know that the European Court of Human Rights has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU.

 

[rlg94086]

Yet another American who doesn’t know that the European Court of Human Rights has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU.

That’s a bit of a strong overstatement. From what I have read, the EU is working on accession to the ECHR and the ECJ considers the ECHR an upper court of sorts. Are you claiming that EU member states don’t ascribe to any of the rulings of the ECHR? That the ECHR has no authority, so their deliberations are meaningless to the EU member states?

 

[CathFaith1]

The other sharp eyed if milder tongued observer of Vatican affairs is Raymond Arroyo and it occured to me a broadcast conversation between them on this topic would be a great EWTN offering, and deserving of even wider air time. ** If this turned into a panel discussion, who else should be invited to participate? Give your nominees here**:

A few (US) nominees:

Peter Kreeft, (could offer a bit of philosophical wisdom is and a moment or two of levity if needed.)

Scott Hahn, (He usually offers insightful feedback and Scriptural references to boot)

Former United States Ambassadors to the Holy See, Mary Ann Glendon and Raymond Flynn. (Could offer insight to political interactions regarding the Church).

 

[Kaninchen]

That’s a bit of a strong overstatement. From what I have read, the EU is working on accession to the ECHR and the ECJ considers the ECHR an upper court of sorts. Are you claiming that EU member states don’t ascribe to any of the rulings of the ECHR? That the ECHR has no authority, so their deliberations are meaningless to the EU member states?

No, I’m claiming that they are entirely separate entities, which they are. All EU members are also members of the ‘Council of Europe’ (parent body of the ECHR) but not all ‘Council of Europe’ members are members of the European Union. The European Court of Justice (the High Court of the EU) is not the ECHR, the ECHR is not the ECJ.

They both have ‘European’ in the title though.

 

[puzzleannie]

Yet another American who doesn’t know that the European Court of Human Rights has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU.

and I said it did?

 

[rlg94086]

No, I’m claiming that they are entirely separate entities, which they are. All EU members are also members of the ‘Council of Europe’ (parent body of the ECHR) but not all ‘Council of Europe’ members are members of the European Union. The European Court of Justice (the High Court of the EU) is not the ECHR, the ECHR is not the ECJ.

They both have ‘European’ in the title though.

So, it’s a distinction of no consequence. The only mention of the EU is here:

Even if Italy prevails in the crucifix case, it will not be on the basis of some privileged legal status for Catholicism, but because of nationalist resentments in many European nations over perceived EU hegemony. Likewise, if the Vatican succeeds in getting the sex abuse lawsuits dismissed in the States, it won’t be because American courts regard the Catholic church as “untouchable,” but because of technical arguments about the implications of national sovereignty.

Since all EU members are also members of the Council of Europe, his comments about Europe and “EU hegemony” don’t seem so far off the mark to elicit ridicule of his American misunderstanding about their relationship.

Did you have any comments about the substance of what he wrote, or were you just looking for something to nitpick?

 

[Kaninchen]

So, it’s a distinction of no consequence.

Rather like that between Orthodox and Catholics, perhaps. They’re all Christians after all and both good material for conspiracy theorists.

The only mention of the EU is here:

Since all EU members are also members of the Council of Europe, his comments about Europe and “EU hegemony” don’t seem so far off the mark to elicit ridicule of his American misunderstanding about their relationship.

Did you have any comments about the substance of what he wrote, or were you just looking for something to nitpick?

I admitted that he wasn’t entirely wide of the mark when I pointed out that they both had European in the title. Other than that, completely wide of the mark.

Now, we can play the “Oh, yes it is, Oh, no it isn’t game” as long as you like, after all I still need a lot of posts before I make Senior Member, but conversations between us are rarely fruitful and my remarks were only really meant for people who had been following the Italian crucifix story.

 

[rlg94086]

Now, we can play the “Oh, yes it is, Oh, no it isn’t game” as long as you like, after all I still need a lot of posts before I make Senior Member, but conversations between us are rarely fruitful and my remarks were only really meant for people who had been following the Italian crucifix story.

Well, neaner-neaner to you too.

 

[Kaninchen]

Well, neaner-neaner to you too.

It’s been a long story on CAF (threads popping up all over the place) with American posters getting quite lyrically cross about ‘the evil NWO EU and its monstrous ECHR’ and hence of no little ‘message board enjoyment’ for several European posters, including myself, obviously.