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djconklin
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As I carefully noted before there is NO commandment that says “thou shalt not kill.”
You are starting from a mis-conception as to what the Bible actually says.
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You are starting from a mis-conception as to what the Bible actually says.
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djconklin
Guest
Well, for starters I never said any such thing. It is a lie to say that I did.
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djconklin
Guest
Romans 3:8
And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
As we can see the text does not say what you say it said.
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djconklin
Guest
When both die I can hardly be wrong.
Not to do good is a sin of omission.
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djconklin
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I did not see your post to Pedja–I just found it ab’t 5-10 minutes ago.
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djconklin
Guest
My fault–I missed the “non-.”
So, if I’m understanding that last sentance you would apporve an abortion where life IS in danger?
That situation is I thought it was quite obvious is to what I was referring–not the “non-threatening”–I had also made it QUITE CLEAR that I would PREFER adoption over abortion IN THOSE CASES. Hopefully, I won’t have to repeat myself yet again on that point.
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djconklin
Guest
"The Sixth Commandment does NOT read : ‘Thou shalt not kill’.
The correct translation from the Hebrew or the Greek is: ‘Thou shalt not murder’.
Anyone, such as I, who has fought in a war to protect our freedom has probably killed many. I refuse to feel guilt for having done that in my role as a soldier. You should not continue to proliferate this error and thereby challenge all who take risks of death themselves while participating in the inevitable and necessary killing that may be essential to preserving this nation, under God.
Very sincerely yours,
W.E.H.
Lt Col USAF (Ret)
Served during WWII, Korea and Vietnam"
found online at duhaime.org/LegalResources/LawMuseum/tabid/345/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/108/1300-BC-The-Ten-Commandments.aspx
The Illustrated Jerusalem Bible Hebrew—English, on page 166, has for the Sixth Commandment, in Exodus 20:13, “Lo Tirsach” (imperative case: “No Kill”, Hebrew using fewer words to express thoughts than does English). This is from the verb “lirtzach,” to murder (infinitive) or “rotzach” (1st—3rd person singular), although the English translation in this Old Testament is "Thou Shalt Not Kill. It is not thou shall not kill (harog=kill, 1st—3rd person singular in Hebrew).
If you go to the Judaism 101 website, it states the Sixth Commandment as Thou Shall Not Murder. The Signet Hebrew/English English/Hebrew Dictionary also documents that the Sixth Commandment is linguistically connected for the verb for murder (p.213), not killing (p. 182)."
Found online at crisispapers.org/essays-p/moral-philo.htm – this one is a kind of interesting read that makes you think.
The correct translation from the Hebrew or the Greek is: ‘Thou shalt not murder’.
Anyone, such as I, who has fought in a war to protect our freedom has probably killed many. I refuse to feel guilt for having done that in my role as a soldier. You should not continue to proliferate this error and thereby challenge all who take risks of death themselves while participating in the inevitable and necessary killing that may be essential to preserving this nation, under God.
Very sincerely yours,
W.E.H.
Lt Col USAF (Ret)
Served during WWII, Korea and Vietnam"
found online at duhaime.org/LegalResources/LawMuseum/tabid/345/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/108/1300-BC-The-Ten-Commandments.aspx
Interesting that a soldier knew the correct translation of the text.
"One of the oldest pieces of political correctness, still spun today, is the King James Bible translation of sixth of the Ten Commandments as “Thou Shalt Not Kill.” In fact, the correct translation of the passage is “Thou Shalt Not Murder.”The Illustrated Jerusalem Bible Hebrew—English, on page 166, has for the Sixth Commandment, in Exodus 20:13, “Lo Tirsach” (imperative case: “No Kill”, Hebrew using fewer words to express thoughts than does English). This is from the verb “lirtzach,” to murder (infinitive) or “rotzach” (1st—3rd person singular), although the English translation in this Old Testament is "Thou Shalt Not Kill. It is not thou shall not kill (harog=kill, 1st—3rd person singular in Hebrew).
If you go to the Judaism 101 website, it states the Sixth Commandment as Thou Shall Not Murder. The Signet Hebrew/English English/Hebrew Dictionary also documents that the Sixth Commandment is linguistically connected for the verb for murder (p.213), not killing (p. 182)."
Found online at americanthinker.com/blog/2006/10/the_sixth_commandment_and_pc.html
“Then how about “Thou shalt not murder,” which, I am told, is the correct translation of the original Hebrew word, “ratsach.””Found online at crisispapers.org/essays-p/moral-philo.htm – this one is a kind of interesting read that makes you think.
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SDA2RC
Guest
DJ… are you saying that the SDA Church is not a pro-choice church?
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SDA2RC
Guest
DJ,
If I understand AdvenitstNoMore correctly, he is not saying that abortion in the case of a life threatening issue is ok… he is saying that the Adventist position on the SDA website makes no distinction between life threatening and non-life threatening abortions.
Further, while it is great that you would generally prefer adoption over abortion, you need to remember that we are not here discussing personal preferences, but specifically the position of the Adventist Church as presented on its website. The website specifically states that the decision is the womans (i.e. pro-choice) and that one should not even attempt to influence her decision.
Would the leaders of the SDA Church say the same about any other parent who was going to kill their child? What if the child was 10 years old rather than 10 weeks? Would the Church still tell us that it is the choice of the mother and that people shouldnt try to influence her decision?
“Therefore, any attempts to coerce women either to remain pregnant or to terminate pregnancy should be rejected as infringements of personal freedom.”
Reference: SDA Website Guidelines on Abortion
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adventistnomore
Guest
No, as I said before, Catholics do not,
Yeah, I know you prefer adoption; you made that quoite clear. But I can’t understand how you believe abortion is a legitimate option for those who elect not to adopt. How can the Adventist Church countenance the taking of a human life when none is in danger (non-fatal congenital birth defects, rape, incest)? I can’t make sense of it.
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St_Violet
Guest
DJ, although I am pleased to hear that you differ on the Official Seventh day Adventists Church’s stance on abortion, But your opinion does not effect the stance of the SDA official church, just as mine does not effect the Catholic Church. So it is important to distingish your opinion from the stance of your Church has taken in the matter of this topic, although you have brought up some interesting case scenarios, The Catholic Church feels that it is wrong to violate the defenseless unborn child’s basic human right, The Right to Live.
The Official SDA Church has explained it’s opinions on abortion as well as made it clear that a woman does have a right regardless of reason.
The Official SDA Church has explained it’s opinions on abortion as well as made it clear that a woman does have a right regardless of reason.
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Maria1212
Guest
Murder and kill mean the same thing djconklin. Look it up in the dictionary. I live in Japan, and in Japanese there is no difference between the word murder and kill. In English the meaning is the same. (If you look up “to kill” and “to murder” in the dictionary, they both give you the Japanese word 殺す (korosu). In other words, there is only one Japanese verb for to kill and to murder, whereas in English there are more synonyms. Forgive me if I picked the wrong English synonym.
That, however, does not change the meaning of what I wrote. In Romans 13:9, it says 殺すな（korosuna) which means do not commit murder or do not kill). If you use a regular English dictionary, the explanation for to kill and murder will give the same meaning. I am sure most posters understood what I meant.
So in the Japanese language Bible, God does command us not to kill, and not to murder. But I understand English Bibles choose to use the word murder compared to kill and I apologize for my mistake. However, you are grasping at straws to critique me based on what synonym I chose. Nonetheless, I am the first to admit, that just as I am not perfect, neither is my English or my Japanese.
Sincerely,
Maria1212
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Morning_Star15
Guest
realwomenca.com/newsletter/1999_Sept_Oct/article_10.html
vcn.bc.ca/~whatsup/Finnish.html
lifedynamics.com/Pro-life_Group/Pro-choice_Women/
(this site has names and information on women who have died from abortions)
abortiontv.com/Words/AbortionDeathReasons.htm
(this one gives the specific causes of abortion-related deaths)
Here’s a snippet about abortion causing breast cancer, which I mentioned before:
"No one can deny that the incidence of breast cancer has jumped markedly over the past 30 years. In China, for example, the breast cancer rates have jumped 40% since the institution of their one-child policy, which often has lead to coerced abortion. This is the same percentage increase as the Roe v Wade generation in the U.S. after the legalization of abortion there in 1973. Nations which prohibit abortion, such as Poland and Ireland, have much lower rates of breast cancer.
In the U.S., a 1994 study by pro-choice physician Janet Daling, published in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute, found that teenagers under the age of 18 who had an abortion had a 30% chance of developing breast cancer. Breast surgeon Angela Lanfranchi found repeated links between her breast cancer patients and prior abortions. Dr. Joel Brind found that 23 of 28 studies showed a definite link between prior induced abortion and breast cancer, in a 1996 study published in the Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health.
This obvious link has lead the state of Texas to pass a law requiring physicians to inform prospective abortion patients of the risk between the procedure and future breast cancer. Not only that, three women (two in Australia and one in Oregon) have successfully sued their abortionists for failing to inform them of the risks."
For the rest of the article: chp.ca/forum/Kempling/Abortion.htm
I hope you see now that abortion isn’t as much of a maternal lifesaver as it’s advertised to be. If you still don’t believe these statistics, please provide me with some evidence that abortion has caused NO deaths at all, since even ONE death resulting from abortion is enough to show that abortion can kill a woman instead of saving her life. So much for your claim that by NOT performing an abortion, someone would directly kill a pregnant woman.
Obviously the doctor performing the abortion is the one who could do just that.
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Stephen_Korsman
Guest
This is the response I got from the Adventist Church when I asked if this was an official statement:
So this is indeed an official statement, and the Adventist church is therefore officially pro-choice.
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DiscernVoc
Guest
What is the point of making this argument? Abortion is murder. Even if it saves the life of the mother. Its pointless to debate people of your denomination because you deny the traditions that the Bible explicitly states are necessary for interpreting scripture. Hopefully you’re desire to discuss faith with those of Christ’s One True Church is the Holy Spirit nudging you in the right direction.
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Maria1212
Guest
Thank you for taking the time to go to the authority on Adventist teaching, and for sharing their reply with us. It is a good reminder that when in doubt, we should ask church leaders, rather than the opinion of an individual , when seeking for the bottom line on a church`s offical stance.
We can see that the Adventist Church is officially pro-choice. I hope and pray that individual Adventists who personally oppose abortion, will ask their church leaders to choose life and to fight for the protection and dignity of unborn children. Many of our other Protestant brothers and sisters already join Catholics in this fight.
Personally, I don`t see how anyone can interpret the the commandment “thou shall not murder” to include an exemption clause for abortion. The Bible, the teachings of the early church fathers show that the very first Christians were taught to protect and preserve the lives of unborn children, and the Catholic Church has not waivered on this. This is one more reason I am proud, and grateful, to be Catholic. This also shows the Catholic Church does not change its doctrine. This is one more way we know the Catholic Church is the true church that Jesus established.
Sincerely,
Maria1212
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St_Violet
Guest
gosh, it feels great to feel Catholic.
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DiscernVoc
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Yes it does!
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Sixtus
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Maria 1215
Good point Maria
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DiscernVoc
Guest
I was reading the Catholic.com tracts today and I was shocked to find out how anti-Catholic SDA’s are. One of the central tenants of their faith is a supposed private revelation to a woman named White containing the normal run-of-the-mill fundamentalist propaganda such as the Pope being the Anti-christ, the Church being the Whore of Babylon, and a host of Vatican world domination conspiracy theories. Catholic answers says that unlike most Protestant denominations its not only the lunatic fringe of the SDA’s that believe this. Its a pretty widespread belief and one of the principles that the SDAC was founded on.
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