Seventh Day Adventist Church and Abortion

[happilycatholic]

We had a professor in the seminary who was asked about his stance on abortion. He stated that what he thought what Satan had done was to pit two God given rights, the right to choose and the right to life, against each other.

It’s easy if you’re catholic. You choose life. Every time. Even over the right to choose.

This is where you have to put your faith in God. If you die, your child is in God’s hands as it was from it’s conception. If you take its life, you’ve taken that child out of God’s hands and placed it in your own.

Our children are gifts, not property. They are not dogs we decide to euthenize when keeping them is painful, inconvenient or down right toture.

It doesn’t matter. When you take a life you are interfering with God’s authority to give life or take it.

God plans every pregnancy. That may be painful to accept given certain circumstances. But that child may have been that woman’s only comfort in life, but she chose to extinguish it.

Choose life. Choose God. Don’t assume God’s role.

 

[Arglaze]

I don’t think any woman out there in her right mind treats abortion as a sport.
Answering the question of what we do with a fetus half born or with congenital defects, etc. Is it murder or not? Where does life begin?
in all honesty, almost everything in the human body is alive (including a sperm and an egg). If God designed the human body so that only 1 of the millions of sperms fertilized the egg, are the remaining wasted, “murder”?
Apostle Paul says in Hebrews that Levi tithes through Abraham to Melchisedech even before conception occurred, when he was yet inside of Abraham.
So the whole idea of killing a fetus can be streched a lot.

The point about abortion is not so much the death of the baby. The point is accountability for one’s actions toward God.
Birth is a mechanism created by God that under normal conditions leads to a person coming out of his mother’s womb healthy. That’s how God grants us life.
However, as long as we live in this sinful world, not all things happen according to the will of God. Unless a person believes it is God’s will that a baby be born without body parts or organs, or other cogenital defects. I fully understand that people can try to rationalize themselves away from problems.

For a person of faith, God can work wonders with any baby with congenital defects.There is ample proof for that.

If a woman aborts that baby, is it the baby’s fault to be born like that? No. Those babies of evil nations that God sent Israel to kill, or in Egypt’s exodus, or Sodom, is it the baby’s fault to be born there? Do they deserve to die for their parent’s sins?
Some matters regarding salvation are better left in God’s hands.

Is abortion ok to dispose of a baby due to irresponsible lifestyle? No

Is abortion ok due to those extreme cases (congenital defects, rape)? That is between the father, the mother, and God.

In rapes cases, I suggest adoption, but I dare not condemn a woman who didn’t want that sperm in the first place. It’s a direct violation to her God given freedom.

Catholics may have their reasons for threatning people’s souls, but I, like my master Jesus, step back and say he who is sinless cast the first stone.
I hope those condemning innocent and guilty have clean hands.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

I don’t think any woman out there in her right mind treats abortion as a sport.
Answering the question of what we do with a fetus half born or with congenital defects, etc. Is it murder or not? Where does life begin?
in all honesty, almost everything in the human body is alive (including a sperm and an egg). If God designed the human body so that only 1 of the millions of sperms fertilized the egg, are the remaining wasted, “murder”?
Apostle Paul says in Hebrews that Levi tithes through Abraham to Melchisedech even before conception occurred, when he was yet inside of Abraham.
So the whole idea of killing a fetus can be streched a lot.

The point about abortion is not so much the death of the baby. The point is accountability for one’s actions toward God.
Birth is a mechanism created by God that under normal conditions leads to a person coming out of his mother’s womb healthy. That’s how God grants us life.
However, as long as we live in this sinful world, not all things happen according to the will of God. Unless a person believes it is God’s will that a baby be born without body parts or organs, or other cogenital defects. I fully understand that people can try to rationalize themselves away from problems.

For a person of faith, God can work wonders with any baby with congenital defects.There is ample proof for that.

If a woman aborts that baby, is it the baby’s fault to be born like that? No. Those babies of evil nations that God sent Israel to kill, or in Egypt’s exodus, or Sodom, is it the baby’s fault to be born there? Do they deserve to die for their parent’s sins?
Some matters regarding salvation are better left in God’s hands.

Is abortion ok to dispose of a baby due to irresponsible lifestyle? No

Is abortion ok due to those extreme cases (congenital defects, rape)? That is between the father, the mother, and God.

In rapes cases, I suggest adoption, but I dare not condemn a woman who didn’t want that sperm in the first place. It’s a direct violation to her God given freedom.

Catholics may have their reasons for threatning people’s souls, but I, like my master Jesus, step back and say he who is sinless cast the first stone.
I hope those condemning innocent and guilty have clean hands.

Well spoken.

 

[Thing]

1. On the abortion issue. Why would anyone want to force his/her will on anyone? I speak in behalf of the father, mother, and more importantly the voice who can’t defend himself, the baby. Of course the Adventist Church opposes abortion, Catholics don’t seem to have a problem with that part. The problem arises when we give exceptions for when to abort.
   Even Christ has pointed to exceptions to the rule. We can’t generalize something so sensitive with a ‘its never ok’ argument. Just like when there’s a time to save, there’s a time to take lives like Solomon says. No one in their right God given mind would want a baby to die, only a sick mind would take pleasure in doing something like that, even if its a special needs child. But that doesnt mean that everyone will have the conviction, character, courage, and patience it takes. So if God’s blessed u with those virtues, then great, but if someone doesnt have them and they don’t want to raise a child, or the preffer a baby to die to save the mother, or if that is the mother’s decision, then “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”. Because once that baby is born it will not be use caring for him.

So its Gods fault that the child dies by your hand.

The English presbyterians had a similar argument when there was a famine and one million people starved to death - they said it was Gods will that those people died, and so no, they would not help them.

1. …so the real question is: is it morally right to kill a baby if that can save the mother, …

In this part of the world we have a really cool idea, the doctors try to save the lives of both the mother and the child.

But for those who want the government to force their religious conviction on abortion, are just giving place to the Old Roman Catholic System. Catholics should limit themselves to share their faith and live up to the light they have, but condemning and accusing is the work of Satan. I’m not opposed however to a priest showing u by the scriptures what Heaven condems, because only God is Righteous. And I say this knowing that I disagree with almost 98% of what Catholics believe in

This is not just a religous issue. Secular states have a set of fundamental human rights - one being, the right to life.

1. …Others worship on Sunday to follow old traditions established by previous popes and emperors. If u think I’m making that up, ask a priest who knows catholic history. I know because I was raised on a catholic country where they forced me to take catholic classes in school.

Love and peace and may God bless u with all that your heart desires,

<>

7 And on the first day of the week, when we were assembled to break bread, Paul discoursed with them…

The Catholic Church continues, as in the days of St. Paul, to assemble on Sunday - the first day of the week, to break bread, - the eucharistic sacrifice at Mass.

 

[MarysRoses]

I don’t think any woman out there in her right mind treats abortion as a sport.
Answering the question of what we do with a fetus half born or with congenital defects, etc. Is it murder or not? Where does life begin?
in all honesty, almost everything in the human body is alive (including a sperm and an egg). If God designed the human body so that only 1 of the millions of sperms fertilized the egg, are the remaining wasted, “murder”?

When an egg is fertilized something new comes into the world. Are you saying that a unique individual, with unique DNA who if nurtured and not harmed will develop into a human child… is no more than a fingernail trimming to be discarded at will?

The point about abortion is not so much the death of the baby. The point is accountability for one’s actions toward God.

How can it be about anything else? The baby dies… and all the blessing it could have brought the world, all of its potential dies, we are all poorer for the loss.

Birth is a mechanism created by God that under normal conditions leads to a person coming out of his mother’s womb healthy. That’s how God grants us life.
However, as long as we live in this sinful world, not all things happen according to the will of God. Unless a person believes it is God’s will that a baby be born without body parts or organs, or other cogenital defects. I fully understand that people can try to rationalize themselves away from problems.

Is anything outside of the will of God? Doesn’t he promise that all things, will work together for the good of those who love God?
My child will die an early death from a congenital defect that was detectable in the womb. Does she not deserve the 15 years of life that God has given her so far? (many more than doctors originally predicted for her) Even though my heart is breaking every day I have her, I wouldn’t trade a single day for all the material riches I could imagine.

For a person of faith, God can work wonders with any baby with congenital defects.There is ample proof for that.

So why not vigorously oppose closing the doors to those wonderful little ones?

If a woman aborts that baby, is it the baby’s fault to be born like that? No. Those babies of evil nations that God sent Israel to kill, or in Egypt’s exodus, or Sodom, is it the baby’s fault to be born there? Do they deserve to die for their parent’s sins?
Some matters regarding salvation are better left in God’s hands.

The reason for those battles had nothing to do with the children.
We can wonder at God’s reasons for why and how He has worked in history, but it doesn’t give us any right to take His will into our own hands to do as we wish.

Is abortion ok to dispose of a baby due to irresponsible lifestyle? No

Is abortion ok due to those extreme cases (congenital defects, rape)? That is between the father, the mother, and God.

I’m curious that you would not “condemn” a woman to carrying a baby conceived in rape… yet would you"condemn" a woman who made a bad decision that led to a pregnancy to carrying her baby… where is her “God given freedom” ? Where is her “choice”?

Would you have the same equanimity to allowing decisions to terminate sick patients to be left to an individuals choice? Where will it end? Should we allow suicide pacts? Ritual killings if the victim is willing? After all, it is up to them and God, it is their choice to participate in such things.

In rapes cases, I suggest adoption, but I dare not condemn a woman who didn’t want that sperm in the first place. It’s a direct violation to her God given freedom.

Since when is welcoming an innocent child into the world a condemnation?

Catholics may have their reasons for threatning people’s souls, but I, like my master Jesus, step back and say he who is sinless cast the first stone.
I hope those condemning innocent and guilty have clean hands.

Defending the innocent who have no voice of their own is “threatening people’s souls”?

The abject spiritual poverty of Adventism is on harsh display here.

May God help them.

Here is a letter written by a former Adventist who left Adventism in large part due to their stance on abortion:

formeradventist.com/stories/teresaarthurbeem.html

While this letter was written several years ago… I’m very happy to give an update… Teresa Beem has a new book out…
“Its OK to NOT be a Seventh-day Adventist” which has some very interesting historical information about the SDA church.

And a further note… Teresa Beem was just recently featured on EWTN’s Journey Home.

ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/SeriesSearchprog.asp?SeriesID=-6892289

MarysRoses

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Well spoken.

To all reading this thread…

I once corresponded with a SDA Union President regarding abortions in SDA hospitals. It was ironic that at the time he had articles in “The Adventist Review” urging church memebers to write to President William Jefferson Clinton for stronger anti-tobacco legislation due to the fact that “nearly 400,000 deaths occur annually as a result of this insidius drug”.

What happened to preserving freedom by allowing choices in that situation? There are nearly 4 times that number of deaths each year resulting from abortion…approximately 1, 600, 000 in the United States of America.

I am planning to include my correspondence between the Union and General Conference presidents as an appendix in a book project, so I won’t include that here…but it is eye opening to say the least.

What I will include here, instead of waiting for the book, are the resutls of my research on abortion statistics for three SDA hospitlas in the period of 1991-1993. These statistics were obtained from the St. Paul Computer Center, Inc. in Glenn Burnie Maryland. They were repository of quite a few databases, two of which included:

1. Maryland Acute Care (name removed by moderator)atient Data
2. Maryland Outpatient Ambulatory Surgery Data.

The following are the number of abortions performed in 1991-1992 by Diagnosis Related Group (DRG) codes 380 and 381
DRG 380 is Abortion without D&C
DRG 381 is Abortion without D&C, Abortion by Aspiration Curettage, or Abortion by Hysterotomy

Washington Adventist Hospital:
DRG 380 = 41abortions
DRG 381 = 506 abortions

Shady Grove Adventist Hospital:
DRG 380 = 53 abortions
DRG 381 = 999 abortions

Leland Memorial Hospital (has since closed I believe):
DRG 380 = 11
DRG 381 = 88

Total income from the above procedures = $1,859,167.00 (U.S. dollars)

The following are the number of abortions performed up to June of 1993. There were no data available for July thourgh December 1993 at that time.

Washington Adventist Hospital:
DRG 380 = 21 abortions
DRG 381 = 266 abortions

Shady Grove Adventist Hospital:
DRG 380 = 20
DRG 381 = 391

These cannot possibly be “medically necessary” procedures, espeically when contrasted with two area public secular hospitals in Farifax and Arlington Virginia which performed less than 50 abortions each in each year noted above.

To my SDA friends, especially the ones who say they are against abortion, what is going on?

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

DRG 381 is Abortion without D&C, Abortion by Aspiration Curettage, or Abortion by Hysterotomy

CORRECTION

DRG 381 is Abortion with D&C, Abortion by Aspiration Curettage, and/or Abortion by Hsyterotomy.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

To all reading this thread…

I once corresponded with a SDA Union President regarding abortions in SDA hospitals. It was ironic that at the time he had articles in “The Adventist Review” urging church memebers to write to President William Jefferson Clinton for stronger anti-tobacco legislation due to the fact that “nearly 400,000 deaths occur annually as a result of this insidius drug”.

What happened to preserving freedom by allowing choices in that situation? There are nearly 4 times that number of deaths each year resulting from abortion…approximately 1, 600, 000 in the United States of America.

I am planning to include my correspondence between the Union and General Conference presidents as an appendix in a book project, so I won’t include that here…but it is eye opening to say the least.

What I will include here, instead of waiting for the book, are the resutls of my research on abortion statistics for three SDA hospitlas in the period of 1991-1993. These statistics were obtained from the St. Paul Computer Center, Inc. in Glenn Burnie Maryland. They were repository of quite a few databases, two of which included:

1. Maryland Acute Care (name removed by moderator)atient Data
2. Maryland Outpatient Ambulatory Surgery Data.

The following are the number of abortions performed in 1991-1992 by Diagnosis Related Group (DRG) codes 380 and 381
DRG 380 is Abortion without D&C
DRG 381 is Abortion without D&C, Abortion by Aspiration Curettage, or Abortion by Hysterotomy

Washington Adventist Hospital:
DRG 380 = 41abortions
DRG 381 = 506 abortions

Shady Grove Adventist Hospital:
DRG 380 = 53 abortions
DRG 381 = 999 abortions

Leland Memorial Hospital (has since closed I believe):
DRG 380 = 11
DRG 381 = 88

Total income from the above procedures = $1,859,167.00 (U.S. dollars)

The following are the number of abortions performed up to June of 1993. There were no data available for July thourgh December 1993 at that time.

Washington Adventist Hospital:
DRG 380 = 21 abortions
DRG 381 = 266 abortions

Shady Grove Adventist Hospital:
DRG 380 = 20
DRG 381 = 391

These cannot possibly be “medically necessary” procedures, espeically when contrasted with two area public secular hospitals in Farifax and Arlington Virginia which performed less than 50 abortions each in each year noted above.

To my SDA friends, especially the ones who say they are against abortion, what is going on?

God bless all!!!

Nice, you use statistics that are almost 20 years old, and notice that there was a significant drop in the numbers performed. Could it be that policy changes in counciling and other factors related to abortions had changed during that time? Perhaps more research and using current stats would be more appropriate for your thesis. This is like my using evidence from the dark ages to prove that the RCC doesn’t really sanctify life as much as they claim. No body, individual or organization is perfect in all things, if you think they are then you’re living in a dream world. Are there anti abortion activists in the SDA, you can be assured there are. Are there those int the RCC that support abortion against the wishes of the Pope, if one where to think not I believe they would be deluting themselves. If I were to do the same research into RCC hospitals what would I find? As the old saying goes “He who lives in glass house should not throw stones.”

 

[Arglaze]

hi Maryroses,

Sad to hear about your child. This is what sin has done to humanity. I value your sincerity, and I’m 100% sure that God does as well. It is your understanding that life should be the only choice a believer should have. However, I would like to reason with you another possibility.
Think of your child. Its being a blessing in your life. And even with the handicaps you give God thanks every day. And God will work all things for good for you regardless of the end your kid will have.
But it is not God’s will that your child be born to this world with those deficiencies, handicaps, and ultimately to die a premature death. That death will b the result of this sin ridden world.

I ask you, the woman that carried the creature inside for 9 months,
Did your child choose to be born? Or did you choose for him?
The moment you arrayed with a man to do it, were you not making a choice for the child to come?
Every ovum and sperm has the potential to become a blessing or a curse to this world. Jesus said it would have been better for Judas not to have been born.

I’d like to think you decided to have your child because of love, not to avoid the judgment of the church.

By the same token, I will respect a woman that out of love and mercy for her child, spares him from being born with such extreme life hindering congenital deffects.

God has allowed sin to flourish not because it is his will to see us suffer, but because our ignorant minds don’t see the end from the beginning. But now that sin is so clear, there can be no reason to doubt why he must destroy sin and unrepentant sinners.
God could be “pro life” and allow life to keep going the way it is right now, and let more suffering, and sin, and death occur, but he is not going to.
He’ll destroy sin and the wicked.
Does this make God “pro death” or is that called mercy and love?
if sin and the wicked live, they will only cause themselves more harm and death. We don’t need more proof of what sin can do.

When a baby is coming with serious congenital defects, we don’t need more proof of how that child’s life will be. We have plenty.

If you want to have the child, it’s your choice, not the baby’s.
if u don’t want to have it, it’s your choice, not the baby’s.

Whether he lives or dies, it won’t matter to the fetus, because he’ll never know. It’s not about the baby. It’s about you and your responsability to God. For the mother that out of love has, and for the mother that out of love lets go.

I will not be a concience for you

 

[Arglaze]

To all reading this thread…

I once corresponded with a SDA Union President regarding abortions in SDA hospitals. It was ironic that at the time he had articles in “The Adventist Review” urging church memebers to write to President William Jefferson Clinton for stronger anti-tobacco legislation due to the fact that “nearly 400,000 deaths occur annually as a result of this insidius drug”.

What happened to preserving freedom by allowing choices in that situation? There are nearly 4 times that number of deaths each year resulting from abortion…approximately 1, 600, 000 in the United States of America.

I am planning to include my correspondence between the Union and General Conference presidents as an appendix in a book project, so I won’t include that here…but it is eye opening to say the least.

What I will include here, instead of waiting for the book, are the resutls of my research on abortion statistics for three SDA hospitlas in the period of 1991-1993. These statistics were obtained from the St. Paul Computer Center, Inc. in Glenn Burnie Maryland. They were repository of quite a few databases, two of which included:

1. Maryland Acute Care (name removed by moderator)atient Data
2. Maryland Outpatient Ambulatory Surgery Data.

The following are the number of abortions performed in 1991-1992 by Diagnosis Related Group (DRG) codes 380 and 381
DRG 380 is Abortion without D&C
DRG 381 is Abortion without D&C, Abortion by Aspiration Curettage, or Abortion by Hysterotomy

Washington Adventist Hospital:
DRG 380 = 41abortions
DRG 381 = 506 abortions

Shady Grove Adventist Hospital:
DRG 380 = 53 abortions
DRG 381 = 999 abortions

Leland Memorial Hospital (has since closed I believe):
DRG 380 = 11
DRG 381 = 88

Total income from the above procedures = $1,859,167.00 (U.S. dollars)

The following are the number of abortions performed up to June of 1993. There were no data available for July thourgh December 1993 at that time.

Washington Adventist Hospital:
DRG 380 = 21 abortions
DRG 381 = 266 abortions

Shady Grove Adventist Hospital:
DRG 380 = 20
DRG 381 = 391

These cannot possibly be “medically necessary” procedures, espeically when contrasted with two area public secular hospitals in Farifax and Arlington Virginia which performed less than 50 abortions each in each year noted above.

To my SDA friends, especially the ones who say they are against abortion, what is going on?

God bless all!!!

• Is it fair for me to say that Catholics believe in Evolution because John Paul made some excuse as to how it can fit in creation?
• Should I say Catholics are OK with priests molesting children because the Vatican doesn’t turn them in and hides and shelters them away from the law?
• Should I say Catholics agree with homosexualism because some priests practice it and the Vatican does nothing about it?
• Should I say that catholics are hypocrites because their priests and nuns engage in extramarital relationships?

I don’t think so.

The SDA stand on abortion is clearly pointed by the General Conference. We don’t agree with it with very few extremely rare exceptions. And we don’t act as a conscience for our members and much less assume God’s role and threaten their soul salvation like the RCC does.

Of course there can be corruption in an SDA hospital just like there can be corruption in the Vatican. Except we don’t claim we’re immune from error like the RCC claims to be. What is going on?

These kind of comparisons are silly. Just like I know Catholics don’t believe in all those a fore mentioned things, consider that what Loma Linda and other SDA hospitals do in many cases, does not constitute what the General Conference or the Seventh-day Adventist body of believers approve.

If we want to talk about facts, sure Loma Linda and other SDA hospitals do things that should probably not be done by Biblical standards. Sure the RCC allows many things to happen and even defends them even though they’re wrong. But that doesn’t mean that either Catholics or Adventists approve. Why would the Vatican or the SDA General Conference choose to ignore some of those cases? Its all politics.

No Church is immune from human corruption, not even the RCC who claims that it can never err. Please, the facts are witnesses of what’s going on. So lets talk about beliefs, because as far as facts are concerned, we’re all filthy very messed up sinners.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Nice, you use statistics that are almost 20 years old, and notice that there was a significant drop in the numbers performed. Could it be that policy changes in counciling and other factors related to abortions had changed during that time?

I’m wondering what statistics you are looking at which indicate a significant drop in the numbers of abortions performed…certaninly not from the numbers above. Let’s look at them more clearly

For the two year period of 1991 and 1992 combined, the total numbers of abortions performed at only 2 SDA hospitals are as follows:

1. Washington Adventist Hospital = 547
2. Shady Grove Adventist Hospital = 1,052

For the period of 1993, I only had statistics for 6 months of that year. So, let’s assume that the rate of abortions performed for the last 6 months of 1993 remain the same as the first 6 months to obtain an estimate for the year 1993. That would be 574 abortions for Washington Adventist Hospital and 822 abortions for Shady Grove Adventist Hospital. Now if we double those figures we can obtain an estimate for the 1993-1994 time period which is as follows:

ESTIMATED figures (not actual) for 1993-1994:

1. Washington Adventist Hospital for 1993-1994 = 1,148
2. Shady Grove Adventist Hospital for 1993-1994 = 1,644

Based on the current rate of abortions performed back then, the estimate reveals a substantial increase in the number of abortions performed, rather than a “significant drop” as you say you observe from the statistics.

Granted this is only an estimate, but the direction is not encouraging. And based on my conversations with other pro-life SDAs, I’m not encouraged that those numbers are decreasing…altough it would be wonderful if they were and I pray that they are much much lower.

Perhaps more research and using current stats would be more appropriate for your thesis. This is like my using evidence from the dark ages to prove that the RCC doesn’t really sanctify life as much as they claim. No body, individual or organization is perfect in all things, if you think they are then you’re living in a dream world. Are there anti abortion activists in the SDA, you can be assured there are. Are there those int the RCC that support abortion against the wishes of the Pope, if one where to think not I believe they would be deluting themselves. If I were to do the same research into RCC hospitals what would I find? As the old saying goes “He who lives in glass house should not throw stones.”

I totally agree with you that more research is required to get an accurate picture of the totality of abortion practices in SDA hospitals. Unfortunately, obtaining those statistics are not free.

It would be wonderful to have a wealthy benefactor provide the funds to obtain abortion statistics for all SDA hospitals world-wide, AND, all Catholic hospitals world-wide from 1972 to the present. This would be a great project for an economist or economics student working on their PhD., or for laymen such as you and me…

This is nothing like you using “evidence” from the dark ages to prove your point, unless you are proving that point in the dark ages. First, we are not living in the dark ages, the inquistion ended hundreds of years ago, the Church has moved on (and so should you), and second…we ARE living in this time and abortion is one of the evils of this age…in OUR time.

I know more than a few Catholics who are pro-choice (and I cannot for the life of me figure out how or why they stay in the Catholic Church), but it is not the policy of Catholicism or Catholic hospitals to provide abortions. The teaching and policies of the Catholic Church are pro-life. There most likely are abortions performed in Catholic hospitals, but they are not condoned and they would have to be performed in stealth procedures. The numbers would be low. But I have not heard any stories that this is occuring, and I live near Baltimore where there are lots of Catholic hospitals.

I know more than a few SDAs who are pro-life (and I cannot for the life of me figure out how or why they stay in the SDA church), but the policy of the SDA church regarding abortion is not pro-life, and there is enough ambiguity in their abortion guidlines to allow abortions to be performed quite freely in their hospitals…and therein lies the difference and the problem. And I have heard many stories from SDAs who know what is going on in their hospitals.

You say above that abortion is against the “wishes” of the Pope…do you also think that abortion is against the “wishes” of God? Substitue the word “principles” in place of the word “wishes” above and ask yourself that same question.

Also, I do not live in a glass house, nor am I throwing stones…but that is good advice anyway!!

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

• Is it fair for me to say that Catholics believe in Evolution because John Paul made some excuse as to how it can fit in creation?
• Should I say Catholics are OK with priests molesting children because the Vatican doesn’t turn them in and hides and shelters them away from the law?
• Should I say Catholics agree with homosexualism because some priests practice it and the Vatican does nothing about it?
• Should I say that catholics are hypocrites because their priests and nuns engage in extramarital relationships?

I don’t think so.

And yet you just did.

The SDA stand on abortion is clearly pointed by the General Conference. We don’t agree with it with very few extremely rare exceptions. And we don’t act as a conscience for our members and much less assume God’s role and threaten their soul salvation like the RCC does.

Of course there can be corruption in an SDA hospital just like there can be corruption in the Vatican. Except we don’t claim we’re immune from error like the RCC claims to be. What is going on?

These kind of comparisons are silly. Just like I know Catholics don’t believe in all those a fore mentioned things, consider that what Loma Linda and other SDA hospitals do in many cases, does not constitute what the General Conference or the Seventh-day Adventist body of believers approve.

If we want to talk about facts, sure Loma Linda and other SDA hospitals do things that should probably not be done by Biblical standards. Sure the RCC allows many things to happen and even defends them even though they’re wrong. But that doesn’t mean that either Catholics or Adventists approve. Why would the Vatican or the SDA General Conference choose to ignore some of those cases? Its all politics.

No Church is immune from human corruption, not even the RCC who claims that it can never err. Please, the facts are witnesses of what’s going on. So lets talk about beliefs, because as far as facts are concerned, we’re all filthy very messed up sinners.

Well…I don’t know that “we’re all” filthy very messed up sinners…some of us are forgiven “filthy very messed up sinners” and now we are adopted sons and daughters of God…and many are saints!!

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

hi Maryroses,

Sad to hear about your child. This is what sin has done to humanity. I value your sincerity, and I’m 100% sure that God does as well. It is your understanding that life should be the only choice a believer should have. However, I would like to reason with you another possibility.
Think of your child. Its being a blessing in your life. And even with the handicaps you give God thanks every day. And God will work all things for good for you regardless of the end your kid will have.
But it is not God’s will that your child be born to this world with those deficiencies, handicaps, and ultimately to die a premature death. That death will b the result of this sin ridden world.

I ask you, the woman that carried the creature inside for 9 months,
Did your child choose to be born? Or did you choose for him?
The moment you arrayed with a man to do it, were you not making a choice for the child to come?
Every ovum and sperm has the potential to become a blessing or a curse to this world. Jesus said it would have been better for Judas not to have been born.

I’d like to think you decided to have your child because of love, not to avoid the judgment of the church.

By the same token, I will respect a woman that out of love and mercy for her child, spares him from being born with such extreme life hindering congenital deffects.

God has allowed sin to flourish not because it is his will to see us suffer, but because our ignorant minds don’t see the end from the beginning. But now that sin is so clear, there can be no reason to doubt why he must destroy sin and unrepentant sinners.
God could be “pro life” and allow life to keep going the way it is right now, and let more suffering, and sin, and death occur, but he is not going to.
He’ll destroy sin and the wicked.
Does this make God “pro death” or is that called mercy and love?
if sin and the wicked live, they will only cause themselves more harm and death. We don’t need more proof of what sin can do.

When a baby is coming with serious congenital defects, we don’t need more proof of how that child’s life will be. We have plenty.

If you want to have the child, it’s your choice, not the baby’s.
if u don’t want to have it, it’s your choice, not the baby’s.

Whether he lives or dies, it won’t matter to the fetus, because he’ll never know. It’s not about the baby. It’s about you and your responsability to God. For the mother that out of love has, and for the mother that out of love lets go.

I will not be a concience for you

I would just like to point out that the severe insensitivity of the reply above is not indicative of the SDAs whom I know.

God bless all!!!

 

[MarysRoses]

hi Maryroses,

I ask you, the woman that carried the creature inside for 9 months,

This is probably one of the most offensive statements I’ve seen.

My child is a PERSON. NOT “the creature”.

I’d like to think you decided to have your child because of love, not to avoid the judgment of the church.

By the same token, I will respect a woman that out of love and mercy for her child, spares him from being born with such extreme life hindering congenital deffects.

This attitude is what makes it such an easy progression from supporting abortion “choice” to supporting euthanasia and “mercy killing”. Once euthanasia for the old and sick is legal, then there will be pressure on our vulnerable members of society to choose death, rather than be a burden to their families. Insurance companies and heath providers will happily encourage such choices, as it saves money on their bottom line. If you don’t think it will happen, look at the countries where it is legal.
This is the culture of death.

God has allowed sin to flourish not because it is his will to see us suffer, but because our ignorant minds don’t see the end from the beginning. But now that sin is so clear, there can be no reason to doubt why he must destroy sin and unrepentant sinners.
God could be “pro life” and allow life to keep going the way it is right now, and let more suffering, and sin, and death occur, but he is not going to.
He’ll destroy sin and the wicked.
Does this make God “pro death” or is that called mercy and love?
if sin and the wicked live, they will only cause themselves more harm and death. We don’t need more proof of what sin can do.

You are saying the world is better off without children with “defects”. I could mention another group that encouraged the killing of “defectives” but that would probably be inflammatory.

I can’t actually believe you are suggesting it would be better if my daughter, a PERSON, who enjoys her life, and school activities, would be better off to have never been born.

If you want to have the child, it’s your choice, not the baby’s.
if u don’t want to have it, it’s your choice, not the baby’s.

Ask my daughter what she would choose! LIFE.
A shorter life than many, probably, but there are no guarantees. Healthy people die young due to things other than chronic health issues all the time.

In her life, she has been a blessing to many and loves Jesus. She plays in the highschool band and is a cheerleader. Yes, sometimes she’s in pain and can’t participate fully. Yes, she has spent months of her life in the hospital when she was younger watching other kids play while she was confined to a wheelchair. But ask her what she would choose for herself.

Whether he lives or dies, it won’t matter to the fetus, because he’ll never know. It’s not about the baby. It’s about you and your responsibility to God. For the mother that out of love has, and for the mother that out of love lets go.

I will not be a concience for you

It won’t matter because she’ll never know?

This is such a vast difference between Adventist and Catholic.

Its ok to kill a baby, because they will never know any different.

That sounds more like secular humanism than Christianity.

For those reading this thread that do not know already, Adventists do not believe that we have a created, eternal soul.

They deny this gift.

My daughter has a soul. Because her mother chose life for her, She has a family who loves her. She has been baptized into Christ, she knows Him and loves Him. She looks forward to living with him forever in heaven. She does not fear death.

For those children who do not live to be born, we believe that God in His infinite mercy will take care of them, even if we do not understand the details. But they will forever be without the experience of living a human life on this earth. That gift was taken from them. They certainly will know what happened. They are persons with an eternal soul, loved by their Creator. They are not things. They are not trash to be discarded.

MarysRoses

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

This is probably one of the most offensive statements I’ve seen.

My child is a PERSON. NOT “the creature”.

This attitude is what makes it such an easy progression from supporting abortion “choice” to supporting euthanasia and “mercy killing”. Once euthanasia for the old and sick is legal, then there will be pressure on our vulnerable members of society to choose death, rather than be a burden to their families. Insurance companies and heath providers will happily encourage such choices, as it saves money on their bottom line. If you don’t think it will happen, look at the countries where it is legal.
This is the culture of death.

You are saying the world is better off without children with “defects”. I could mention another group that encouraged the killing of “defectives” but that would probably be inflammatory.

I can’t actually believe you are suggesting it would be better if my daughter, a PERSON, who enjoys her life, and school activities, would be better off to have never been born.

Ask my daughter what she would choose! LIFE.
A shorter life than many, probably, but there are no guarantees. Healthy people die young due to things other than chronic health issues all the time.

In her life, she has been a blessing to many and loves Jesus. She plays in the highschool band and is a cheerleader. Yes, sometimes she’s in pain and can’t participate fully. Yes, she has spent months of her life in the hospital when she was younger watching other kids play while she was confined to a wheelchair. But ask her what she would choose for herself.

It won’t matter because she’ll never know?

This is such a vast difference between Adventist and Catholic.

Its ok to kill a baby, because they will never know any different.

That sounds more like secular humanism than Christianity.

For those reading this thread that do not know already, Adventists do not believe that we have a created, eternal soul.

They deny this gift.

My daughter has a soul. Because her mother chose life for her, She has a family who loves her. She has been baptized into Christ, she knows Him and loves Him. She looks forward to living with him forever in heaven. She does not fear death.

For those children who do not live to be born, we believe that God in His infinite mercy will take care of them, even if we do not understand the details. But they will forever be without the experience of living a human life on this earth. That gift was taken from them. They certainly will know what happened. They are persons with an eternal soul, loved by their Creator. They are not things. They are not trash to be discarded.

MarysRoses

God bless you MarysRoses!!! The charity with which you responded to that damnable post serves as a Godly example for all of us. God bless you MarysRoses!!!

As for “fetuses” not knowing anything…

Luke 1:39At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. 41When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!”

The baby (fetus), John the Baptist, experienced the emotion of joy in the womb of his mother…at least according to the Holy Bible!

God bless all!!!

 

[Arglaze]

I would just like to point out that the severe insensitivity of the reply above is not indicative of the SDAs whom I know.

God bless all!!!

So any attempt to rationally answer a matter leaving aside most of my emotions and feelings is being insensitive?

People here don’t know my background or my subjective feelings about abortion. I’m answering with my head, not with my feelings.
Feelings in most cases lead to wrong decisions, using the brain God gives us helps us tackle problems.

Moral choices are made using intelligence and wisdom, not feelings. Feelings are untamed.

I don’t see how my post was insensitive or how I could have gotten my message across in a way that is more pleasing to you. No matter what I say at this point, everything will be offensive to someone who’s being defensive.

I would ask you for help regarding how to communicate, but it seems like its easier to criticize me than helping me. You didn’t say in which way or what I said that is insensitive, you just labeled everything as insensitive. How is that helping or christian-like?

 

[Arglaze]

Just a simple question to all those accusing me of the babies in the womb being aware of everything.

Born or unborn,

For the babies that died in Sodom and Gomorrah,
For the babies of the nations that God sent Israel to kill,
For the babies that die when God destroys the wicked,
And for all other babies born or unborn that God destroys.

Being that those babies born and to be born have not committed sin and had no responsibility for what their fathers or mothers did,

Is it fair for God to destroy them or punish them?
Is God being evil for taking a life of a child that will never know?

Not everything is black and white like many would like to paint, consider that truth varies depending on circumstances.
God wishes he wouldn’t have to destroy anyone, but in view of the circumstances, sometimes he has to take some actions.

If someone puts a gun in your child’s head, and you have a gun pointed at the person who’s doing that. I’d like to ask all those “Pro Life” people, what would you do?
Will killing the thug be pro death or pro life?
The terms pro-life and pro-death are too commercialized.

Not everything is black and white. We act according to the circumstances.

 

[Maria1212]

hi Maryroses,

Sad to hear about your child. This is what sin has done to humanity. I value your sincerity, and I’m 100% sure that God does as well. It is your understanding that life should be the only choice a believer should have. However, I would like to reason with you another possibility.
Think of your child. Its being a blessing in your life. And even with the handicaps you give God thanks every day. And God will work all things for good for you regardless of the end your kid will have.
But it is not God’s will that your child be born to this world with those deficiencies, handicaps, and ultimately to die a premature death. That death will b the result of this sin ridden world.

I ask you, the woman that carried the creature inside for 9 months,
Did your child choose to be born? Or did you choose for him?
The moment you arrayed with a man to do it, were you not making a choice for the child to come?
Every ovum and sperm has the potential to become a blessing or a curse to this world. Jesus said it would have been better for Judas not to have been born.

I’d like to think you decided to have your child because of love, not to avoid the judgment of the church.

By the same token, I will respect a woman that out of love and mercy for her child, spares him from being born with such extreme life hindering congenital deffects.

God has allowed sin to flourish not because it is his will to see us suffer, but because our ignorant minds don’t see the end from the beginning. But now that sin is so clear, there can be no reason to doubt why he must destroy sin and unrepentant sinners.
God could be “pro life” and allow life to keep going the way it is right now, and let more suffering, and sin, and death occur, but he is not going to.
He’ll destroy sin and the wicked.
Does this make God “pro death” or is that called mercy and love?
if sin and the wicked live, they will only cause themselves more harm and death. We don’t need more proof of what sin can do.

When a baby is coming with serious congenital defects, we don’t need more proof of how that child’s life will be. We have plenty.

If you want to have the child, it’s your choice, not the baby’s.
if u don’t want to have it, it’s your choice, not the baby’s.

Whether he lives or dies, it won’t matter to the fetus, because he’ll never know. It’s not about the baby. It’s about you and your responsability to God. For the mother that out of love has, and for the mother that out of love lets go.

I will not be a concience for you

This is post is extremely offensive.

I will say three things in response. First, I will pray for the author.

Second, I was born at 27 weeks (three months premature). I was a baby when I was born, and I was a baby in the uterus before my birth. A human, not a “creature” somehow different from other humans. And for the record, I am glad I was born. It is not our choice to decide who gets to live and who gets to die. God gives us life and it should be God who decides when we die. Just because some babies are born less than physically perfect does not mean our lives are any less valuable, or any less “deserving of life” than anyone else. Sin has nothing to do with whether a baby is born physically healthy or not. Sin is not responsible for a child`s physical disabilities.

Abortion takes away the life of an unborn child. Abortion takes the life of another human being who has not had the opportunity to be born. It is a horrific and violent procedure that painfully ends the life of another. Life does not begin at birth. Life begins at conception.

God creates each person for a reason. All children are blessings, disabilities and all, even if others do not have the eyes to see those blessings.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[Maria1212]

I would just like to point out that the severe insensitivity of the reply above is not indicative of the SDAs whom I know.

God bless all!!!

I second this.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[Arglaze]

This is probably one of the most offensive statements I’ve seen.

My child is a PERSON. NOT “the creature”.

This attitude is what makes it such an easy progression from supporting abortion “choice” to supporting euthanasia and “mercy killing”. Once euthanasia for the old and sick is legal, then there will be pressure on our vulnerable members of society to choose death, rather than be a burden to their families. Insurance companies and heath providers will happily encourage such choices, as it saves money on their bottom line. If you don’t think it will happen, look at the countries where it is legal.
This is the culture of death.

For those children who do not live to be born, we believe that God in His infinite mercy will take care of them, even if we do not understand the details. But they will forever be without the experience of living a human life on this earth. That gift was taken from them. They certainly will know what happened. They are persons with an eternal soul, loved by their Creator. They are not things. They are not trash to be discarded.

MarysRoses

I hope I can use more agreeable language.

“And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” Luke 1:35

Is that angel being offensive to Mary for calling the person to be born a “thing”. In many places in Scripture the word “creature” is used to refer to humans and babies. It is in this sense that I used the word. I am sorry if I offended you for using that particular word, English is not my first language and I use word that I’ve read in the Bible and other things. I would have used “person” if that was more agreeable with you.

sigh

ok Mary, I know the feelings involved in the abortion issue. I am torn in many cases on what should be the proper course of action, but not everything is black & white. Just to give you an example, here goes a confession.

Before I was born, the doctors told my mom that the “product” (product = me) was no good and it would have been better to discard it. My mom chose to have me anyway and I’m a thriving human being with very minor almost unnoticeable deformities due to a polio fever she had while pregnant, but if she had agreed to discard me, I would have never known, and it wouldn’t matter to me since I never lived.
The only person left with the physical and/or emotional scar would have been my mother and father, and I add to that the “Catholic guilt ridden feeling” if my parents were catholic at all, which are not. They made the choice for me, and God worked a way for me to thrive.
However, there are many sick kids who didn’t have the same blessings that I had, and case after case you can see how they are born and die at birth, or suffer through life and I’m not talking about blindness or deaf, I’m talking about extreme diseases, and vegetable states, that are proven to be excruciating pain and suffering. Should we allow those babies to live simply to feel good with our conscience? Personally, I feel like that’s selfish and it’s more about me than the baby. But if you disagree, that is ok. I simply won’t be a conscience for you.

My fear is that many Catholics choose to not have abortions because the church tells them their soul is in jeopardy rather than do it because of the kid’s life. Wouldn’t that be a selfish choice? having the child because of what others might think of me? I simply disagree with Catholics on threatening soul salvation.

I have a problem with people that make a choice, and then believe everyone else has to make the same choice as them or they are going to hell. Everyone is accountable to God for his/her decisions, not because of what the church says.

You believe abortion is never an option for a Christian, why?
Does the Bible condemn abortion with hellfire for those who do?
The bible says, thou shalt not kill. The bible also says there’s a time to kill. Obviously then not everything is black and white.
And not everything in this sinful world can be fixed, at least not till Jesus comes.

I understand your fear of cheapening life and people using every possible excuse to say abortion is OK, but going to the other extreme where people say things are black and white doesn’t make things any better. In both cases you’ll have fanatics and extremists. We can’t restrain the world, we can just be an example to others and share our beliefs. But God doesn’t force and neither should we. Am I wrong?

I don’t believe anyone has an “Eternal Created Soul” because the Bible doesn’t say anything about “the immortality of the soul”. But it does talk about Adam becoming a “living soul” after God breathed life into his nostrils. And also talks about “living souls” dying. In fact, the Bible definition of soul simply points out that a body with life is a living soul, and a body without life is just a dead soul.

We Adventists follow the Scriptures. Catholics follows the understanding that the Pope and Priests give as doctrine. We believe God guides his church through the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. You believe God guides his church through the teachings Priests because they are protected from error by the Holy Spirit. We will disagree on doctrinal matters unless we have common ground in the Word of God.

As far as unborn children and God taking care of them, I see no Scripture proof for that teaching, but I don’t see any harm in it other than it being not Biblical.