Seventh Day Adventist Church and Abortion

[Maria1212]

I hope I can use more agreeable language.

“And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” Luke 1:35

Is that angel being offensive to Mary for calling the person to be born a “thing”. In many places in Scripture the word “creature” is used to refer to humans and babies. It is in this sense that I used the word. I am sorry if I offended you for using that particular word, English is not my first language and I use word that I’ve read in the Bible and other things. I would have used “person” if that was more agreeable with you.

sigh

ok Mary, I know the feelings involved in the abortion issue. I am torn in many cases on what should be the proper course of action, but not everything is black & white. Just to give you an example, here goes a confession.

Before I was born, the doctors told my mom that the “product” (product = me) was no good and it would have been better to discard it. My mom chose to have me anyway and I’m a thriving human being with very minor almost unnoticeable deformities due to a polio fever she had while pregnant, but if she had agreed to discard me, I would have never known, and it wouldn’t matter to me since I never lived.
The only person left with the physical and/or emotional scar would have been my mother and father, and I add to that the “Catholic guilt ridden feeling” if my parents were catholic at all, which are not. They made the choice for me, and God worked a way for me to thrive.
However, there are many sick kids who didn’t have the same blessings that I had, and case after case you can see how they are born and die at birth, or suffer through life and I’m not talking about blindness or deaf, I’m talking about extreme diseases, and vegetable states, that are proven to be excruciating pain and suffering. Should we allow those babies to live simply to feel good with our conscience? Personally, I feel like that’s selfish and it’s more about me than the baby. But if you disagree, that is ok. I simply won’t be a conscience for you.

My fear is that many Catholics choose to not have abortions because the church tells them their soul is in jeopardy rather than do it because of the kid’s life. Wouldn’t that be a selfish choice? having the child because of what others might think of me? I simply disagree with Catholics on threatening soul salvation.

I have a problem with people that make a choice, and then believe everyone else has to make the same choice as them or they are going to hell. Everyone is accountable to God for his/her decisions, not because of what the church says.

You believe abortion is never an option for a Christian, why?
Does the Bible condemn abortion with hellfire for those who do?
The bible says, thou shalt not kill. The bible also says there’s a time to kill. Obviously then not everything is black and white.
And not everything in this sinful world can be fixed, at least not till Jesus comes.

I understand your fear of cheapening life and people using every possible excuse to say abortion is OK, but going to the other extreme where people say things are black and white doesn’t make things any better. In both cases you’ll have fanatics and extremists. We can’t restrain the world, we can just be an example to others and share our beliefs. But God doesn’t force and neither should we. Am I wrong?

I don’t believe anyone has an “Eternal Created Soul” because the Bible doesn’t say anything about “the immortality of the soul”. But it does talk about Adam becoming a “living soul” after God breathed life into his nostrils. And also talks about “living souls” dying. In fact, the Bible definition of soul simply points out that a body with life is a living soul, and a body without life is just a dead soul.

We Adventists follow the Scriptures. Catholics follows the understanding that the Pope and Priests give as doctrine. We believe God guides his church through the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. You believe God guides his church through the teachings Priests because they are protected from error by the Holy Spirit. We will disagree on doctrinal matters unless we have common ground in the Word of God.

As far as unborn children and God taking care of them, I see no Scripture proof for that teaching, but I don’t see any harm in it other than it being not Biblical.

You have made numerous false assumptions about Catholicism. Please reread my first posts on this thread for Scripture showing life begins in the womb. Moreover, St. Paul clearly teaches we can never do evil to bring about good. (Romans 3:8). That means we can`t murder a single innocent person to prevent them from suffering, or for any other reason.

We Catholics follow Scripture and accept the Bible as an authority in matters of faith, including abortion, because it is God`s inspired Word. We also believe in sacred Tradition, and the authority of Christ*s Church known as the Magisterium. These are all topics for a different thread but I wanted to correct your false assumption that Catholicism is not based on the Word of God.

You are right in that we have different interpretations of Scripture. Catholics read the Bible as a whole. Reading only isolated passages, or taking passages out of context, can distort the meaning. As Catholics, we believe that the Holy Spirit who inspired the Bible also guides and guards the teachings of the Church. Since the Holy spirit cannot contradict Himself, the teachings of the Catholic Church cannot contradict the Bible.

These are topics to address in a different thread however.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[Maria1212]

I have a question on Adventist teaching that I am hoping our Adventist friends will address.

In the Bible, both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament, we are taught to follow the Lord`s commandment “Thou shall not kill.”

Yet the Adventist Church permits abortion. Abortions are performed in Adventist hospitals. And when we examine official Adventists teachings, we see that abortion is permited.

For example:
"The final decision whether to terminate the pregnancy or not should be made by the pregnant woman after appropriate consultation. " (adventist.org/beliefs/guidelines/main_guide1.html)

In contrast, the Catholic Church teaches that killing an unborn child violates God`s commandment.

Please see:
catholic.com/library/Abortion.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1990/9005frs.asp

The Catholic Church opposes abortion under any circumstance because life begins at conception. Among the reasons the Catholic Church teaches this can be found in the following Scripture.

Isaiah 49: 1, 5 The LORD called me from birth, from my mother’s womb he gave me my name. For now the LORD has spoken who formed me as his servant from the womb, That Jacob may be brought back to him and Israel gathered to him; And I am made glorious in the sight of the LORD, and my God is now my strength!
Luke 1:39-44 39 During those days Mary set out and traveled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah, where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.

Isaiah 42:2, 24 Thus says the LORD who made you, your help, who formed you from the womb: Fear not, O Jacob, my servant, the darling whom I have chosen. Thus says the LORD, your redeemer, who formed you from the womb: I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens; when I spread out the earth, who was with me?

Ecclesiastes 11:5 Just as you know not how the breath of life fashions the human frame in the mother’s womb, So you know not the work of God which he is accomplishing in the universe.
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I dedicated you, a prophet to the nations I appointed you.

Hosea 12: 2-4Ephraim chases the wind, ever pursuing the gale. His lies and falsehoods are many: he comes to terms with Assyria, and carries oil to Egypt. The LORD has a grievance against Israel: he shall punish Jacob for his conduct, for his deeds he shall repay him. In the womb he supplanted his brother, and as a man he contended with God;

Wisdom of Solomon 7: 1-3 I too am a mortal man, the same as all the rest, and a descendant of the first man formed on earth. And in my mother’s womb I was molded into flesh in a ten-months’ period-body and blood, from the seed of man, and the pleasure that accompanies marriage. And I too, when born, inhaled the common air, and fell upon the kindred earth; wailing, I uttered that first sound common to all.

Sirach 49:7 for they had treated him badly who even in the womb had been made a prophet, To root out, pull down, and destroy, and then to build and to plant.

Continued below…

Arglaze–this was my initial post that I was referring to.

 

[Arglaze]

Arglaze–this was my initial post that I was referring to.

how does anyone reach to the conclusion that life begins at conception based on the Word of God?

Is a sperm alive or not?
Is it a potential baby or not?
Should we isolate every single sperm to make sure each one gets a chance to live? That would really be pro life.

Paul says Levi tithes to Melchisedech in Abraham while he was yet inside of Abraham. How can he tithe if he’s not even born yet and when did his life begin?

Some secrets belong to God. When does life begin? We can speculate, but that mystery has not been revealed to us.
if anyone wants to use the Bible explanation of when life begins, then life starts when the baby comes out of the womb. It’s called birth.

There are many references in the scriptures about people in the womb that God speaks about, and also people that are not even in the process yet like King Cyrus. But the Bible speaks of a woman giving birth/concieving a child, then calling their name.
I was explained that a baby in the womb is treated by the mother’s body as a foreign object. That’s what makes the mom sick.

When does life begin? That’s God’s mystery. If you can find me in scripture that God, a prophet, or an Apostle says life begins at conception, I will embrace that. But until then I have to disagree.

 

[Soutane]

You are correct. Personally, I would not feel comfortable belonging to a church that permits the killing of unborn children, thereby teaching others it is okay to violate God`s commandment “Thou shall not kill.”

Sincerely,

Maria1212

That TRULY is an AMAZING FACT:thumbsup:

 

[Soutane]

how does anyone reach to the conclusion that life begins at conception based on the Word of God?

Is a sperm alive or not?
Is it a potential baby or not?
Should we isolate every single sperm to make sure each one gets a chance to live? That would really be pro life.

Paul says Levi tithes to Melchisedech in Abraham while he was yet inside of Abraham. How can he tithe if he’s not even born yet and when did his life begin?

Some secrets belong to God. When does life begin? We can speculate, but that mystery has not been revealed to us.
if anyone wants to use the Bible explanation of when life begins, then life starts when the baby comes out of the womb. It’s called birth.

There are many references in the scriptures about people in the womb that God speaks about, and also people that are not even in the process yet like King Cyrus. But the Bible speaks of a woman giving birth/concieving a child, then calling their name.
I was explained that a baby in the womb is treated by the mother’s body as a foreign object. That’s what makes the mom sick.

When does life begin? That’s God’s mystery. If you can find me in scripture that God, a prophet, or an Apostle says life begins at conception, I will embrace that. But until then I have to disagree.

Christ gave us a Church,the Catholic Church which is the pillar and foundation of truth guaranteed in its innerrancy by the Holy Spirit,God Himself.The Church guided by the Holy Spirit has always,does and will teach that life begins at conception.Good enough for me.For a very few biblical references please have a gander at Exodus 20:13,Job 10 8-12 ,Isaiah 44.2.Use a little exegeis.

 

[Maria1212]

*Originally Posted by Maria1212
You are correct. Personally, I would not feel comfortable belonging to a church that permits the killing of unborn children, thereby teaching others it is okay to violate God`s commandment “Thou shall not kill.”

Sincerely,

Maria1212
That TRULY is an AMAZING FACT*

---

It literally astounds me that Adventists accuse Catholics of violating the Lords commandment to honor the sabbath because we celebrate the Lords Day on Sunday, but at the same time, they ignore the commandment on taking the life of others. There is no way I could belong to a church that permits the killing of unborn children.

I was listening to the Journey Home program that MarysRoses posted and the speaker noted that Adventists hospitals also perform partial birth abortions. As someone born at 27 weeks (three months premature), this repulses me. Any type of abortion, no matter what the timing, is still terminating the life of another. And that is a violation of our Lord`s teachings.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[Soutane]

*Originally Posted by Maria1212
You are correct. Personally, I would not feel comfortable belonging to a church that permits the killing of unborn children, thereby teaching others it is okay to violate God`s commandment “Thou shall not kill.”

Sincerely,

Maria1212
That TRULY is an AMAZING FACT*

---

It literally astounds me that Adventists accuse Catholics of violating the Lords commandment to honor the sabbath because we celebrate the Lords Day on Sunday, but at the same time, they ignore the commandment on taking the life of others. There is no way I could belong to a church that permits the killing of unborn children.

I was listening to the Journey Home program that MarysRoses posted and the speaker noted that Adventists hospitals also perform partial birth abortions. As someone born at 27 weeks (three months premature), this repulses me. Any type of abortion, no matter what the timing, is still terminating the life of another. And that is a violation of our Lord`s teachings.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

Ellen Gould White,false prophetess probably suffered from brain damage and whose name adds up to 666.Abortion is child sacrifice and SATANIC.7th Day Adventism has truly lost what little credibility it ever had.Actually it never had any.

 

[Maria1212]

how does anyone reach to the conclusion that life begins at conception based on the Word of God?

Is a sperm alive or not?
Is it a potential baby or not?
Should we isolate every single sperm to make sure each one gets a chance to live? That would really be pro life.

Paul says Levi tithes to Melchisedech in Abraham while he was yet inside of Abraham. How can he tithe if he’s not even born yet and when did his life begin?

Some secrets belong to God. When does life begin? We can speculate, but that mystery has not been revealed to us.
if anyone wants to use the Bible explanation of when life begins, then life starts when the baby comes out of the womb. It’s called birth.

There are many references in the scriptures about people in the womb that God speaks about, and also people that are not even in the process yet like King Cyrus. But the Bible speaks of a woman giving birth/concieving a child, then calling their name.
I was explained that a baby in the womb is treated by the mother’s body as a foreign object. That’s what makes the mom sick.

When does life begin? That’s God’s mystery. If you can find me in scripture that God, a prophet, or an Apostle says life begins at conception, I will embrace that. But until then I have to disagree.

The mystery of when life begins has been revealed to us. As I wrote earlier the Holy Spirit who inspired the Bible also guides and guards the teachings of the Church. Since the Holy spirit cannot contradict Himself, the teachings of the Catholic Church cannot contradict the Bible.

Adventists obviously do not recognize the Catholic Church as the original and true Christian Church. But it is. If you examine the Catholic Church`s teaching on abortion, you will see that there is unbroken historical continuity from the time of Christ and the Apostles. The Catholic Church has also preserved an unbroken doctrinal continuity, as illustrated by the writings of the early Church Fathers, as well as an unbroken continuity of apostolic teaching authority (in bishops and popes, the ordained successors to the Apostles).

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[Maria1212]

Ellen Gould White,false prophetess probably suffered from brain damage and whose name adds up to 666.Abortion is child sacrifice and SATANIC.7th Day Adventism has truly lost what little credibility it ever had.Actually it never had any.

What intrigues me is Adventists follow the authority of Ellen White over the authority of the Church that Christ himself started. As for me, I am sticking with Christ! Jesus was not lying when told Peter (Matthew 16:13-19) “And I tell you, you are Peter (Rock), and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[Maria1212]

God bless you MarysRoses!!! The charity with which you responded to that damnable post serves as a Godly example for all of us. God bless you MarysRoses!!!

As for “fetuses” not knowing anything…

Luke 1:39At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. 41When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!”

The baby (fetus), John the Baptist, experienced the emotion of joy in the womb of his mother…at least according to the Holy Bible!

God bless all!!!

Do Adventists not believe this part of the Bible?

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[Arglaze]

What intrigues me is Adventists follow the authority of Ellen White over the authority of the Church that Christ himself started. As for me, I am sticking with Christ! Jesus was not lying when told Peter (Matthew 16:13-19) “And I tell you, you are Peter (Rock), and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Sincerely,

Maria1212

I’d like to try to stay on the subject, but I need to answer your enquiry.

If Jesus’ disciples and those that followed Christ reasoned the authority of the Jewish Church the same way that Catholics try to reason why all churches should follow their lead, then the Christian church would have never existed.

The Jewish church was founded by Jesus.
Its leaders were supposed to be under the direction of the Holy Spirit.
The Jewish church is older than the Catholic church.
The Jewish church contained the Word of God.
They witnessed God’s glory in Sinai.

I mean, I can go on and on with the glories of the Jewish church, but they still crucified The Lord.
It was the Jewish church leadership, that in the days of Elijah, had led Israel to worship a pagan god.

For Catholics to claim that their leadership is incorruptible and unable to at some point in history teach lies is just denial.
As long as sin exists, corruption is always a posibility. And no matter how you may think that the Holy Spirit protects the leadership from erring, God doesn’t force his will on people. the facts reveal this truth.

Our only safety when it comes to doctrine is in studying the Word of God for ourselves like Jesus says.

Ellen White was not crucified for us. She points us to study the Bible, but many stare at her finger instead of Who she’s pointing at. I could give you the many reasons why I believe her testimony, but I’m not called to preach the words of Ellen White. Our call, as she points out is to preach “thus saith The Lord”. Not the pastor, or Ellen (RIP), or the teacher, or the priest, nor the Pope.

The Church that started in Sinai was not the same when Jesus came to earth, and the Catholic church today is not the same it was when the disciples started it.

I find no scripture proof to say the church can’t err in its practices, doctrines, and traditions. We are humans and as such sin can change us. God’s Word doesn’t change; that is my only safety

 

[Arglaze]

The “pro life” stand to me is unreal and hypocritical. Adventists, Methodists, Protestants, and Catholics are not pro death. That is an extreme lie.

We’ve already pointed that our church is not pro abortion, with very few exceptions that are extreme cases.

If Catholics are really pro life and don’t want to let a potential person from being born, then we can’t have intercourse because many potential babies are discarded. We need to go to an artificial insemination clinic and make sure that all the millions of sperms we have don’t die, but that they all get a chance to live regardless of who will raise them or the kind of life they’ll have.

Do you believe a dog has a soul? Then go to the pound and put your pro life signs out there so they don’t kill fully grown dogs.
In fact, since pro life says life is always the only choice a Christian should pick, then don’t eat animals, they have a soul too, in heaven we’re going back to the Eden diet (fruits of trees).

Thou shalt not kill should then apply to everything with life.
Why do pro life people arbitrarily chooses one type of life over the other?
Humans can feed from the food of every tree, why kill animals?

What Loma Linda may do in many cases doesn’t reflect what we teach or believe just like what happens in some Catholic priests child molestation cases where the Vatican hides these criminals doesn’t reflect what the RCC church teaches or believes.

If your conviction is that you interpret thou shalt not kill means abortion in all cases with no exceptions is morally wrong. Then I can respect that because you are making your decision based on the Word of God.
And I believe that thou shalt not kills means that too, but with exceptions. God said we can kill to feed ourselves, God’s Word says that there’s a time to kill also. In extreme cases, we don’t need more proof of what some birth diseases will do to some babies.

Some mothers out of love chose to spare the baby that pain, others don’t, they will feel better in their concience letting it live regardless of the consequences. Both are ok.
Is there a commandment broken when a baby wasnt going to live anyway, until we came with our machines to force him to live?

 

[Maria1212]

The “pro life” stand to me is unreal and hypocritical. Adventists, Methodists, Protestants, and Catholics are not pro death. That is an extreme lie.

We’ve already pointed that our church is not pro abortion, with very few exceptions that are extreme cases.

If Catholics are really pro life and don’t want to let a potential person from being born, then we can’t have intercourse because many potential babies are discarded. We need to go to an artificial insemination clinic and make sure that all the millions of sperms we have don’t die, but that they all get a chance to live regardless of who will raise them or the kind of life they’ll have.

Do you believe a dog has a soul? Then go to the pound and put your pro life signs out there so they don’t kill fully grown dogs.
In fact, since pro life says life is always the only choice a Christian should pick, then don’t eat animals, they have a soul too, in heaven we’re going back to the Eden diet (fruits of trees).

Thou shalt not kill should then apply to everything with life.
Why do pro life people arbitrarily chooses one type of life over the other?
Humans can feed from the food of every tree, why kill animals?

What Loma Linda may do in many cases doesn’t reflect what we teach or believe just like what happens in some Catholic priests child molestation cases where the Vatican hides these criminals doesn’t reflect what the RCC church teaches or believes.

If your conviction is that you interpret thou shalt not kill means abortion in all cases with no exceptions is morally wrong. Then I can respect that because you are making your decision based on the Word of God.
And I believe that thou shalt not kills means that too, but with exceptions. God said we can kill to feed ourselves, God’s Word says that there’s a time to kill also. In extreme cases, we don’t need more proof of what some birth diseases will do to some babies.

Some mothers out of love chose to spare the baby that pain, others don’t, they will feel better in their concience letting it live regardless of the consequences. Both are ok.
Is there a commandment broken when a baby wasnt going to live anyway, until we came with our machines to force him to live?

To clarify, Catholics do not permit abortion because life begins at conception (when the sperm fertilizes the egg). There are NO EXCEPTIONS that allow abortion. (To be clear, spontaneous abortions or miscarriages are obviously a different matter). Catholics do not believe that each sperm is human. Moreover, artificial insemination is not permitted in the Catholic Church but that is a discussion for a new thread.

It is never okay for the mother or father to terminate the life of their unborn child. No exceptions.

Human beings are different from animals. We have souls and are created in God`s image and likeness. As you know, we see throughout the Old Testament and New Testament it is okay to slaughter animals for food. Slaughtering unborn humans is a different matter entirely. As I stated earlier, Catholics read the Bible as a whole, rather than reading passages in isolation, and there is no contradiction between Catholic doctrine and the Bible.

Finally, as illustrated in earlier posts on this tread, the Adventist Church does permit abortion. Adventist men and women have decided they know better than the Word of God by allowing exceptions in “special cases” when it comes to abortion. If you agree with abortion, it is not pro-life Christians you disagree with. It is the Word of God you disagree with.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[Arglaze]

To clarify, Catholics do not permit abortion because life begins at conception (when the sperm fertilizes the egg). There are NO EXCEPTIONS that allow abortion. (To be clear, spontaneous abortions or miscarriages are obviously a different matter). Catholics do not believe that each sperm is human. Moreover, artificial insemination is not permitted in the Catholic Church but that is a discussion for a new thread.

It is never okay for the mother or father to terminate the life of their unborn child. No exceptions.

Human beings are different from animals. We have souls and are created in God`s image and likeness. As you know, we see throughout the Old Testament and New Testament it is okay to slaughter animals for food. Slaughtering unborn humans is a different matter entirely. As I stated earlier, Catholics read the Bible as a whole, rather than reading passages in isolation, and there is no contradiction between Catholic doctrine and the Bible.

Finally, as illustrated in earlier posts on this tread, the Adventist Church does permit abortion. Adventist men and women have decided they know better than the Word of God by allowing exceptions in “special cases” when it comes to abortion. If you agree with abortion, it is not pro-life Christians you disagree with. It is the Word of God you disagree with.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

We permit abortion in very particular extreme cases.
You speak of us as if we were deliberately looking for pregnant women to perform abortions for just about every possible reason.

I respectfully disagree with you. I could make the same claim that Catholics only take some parts of the Scripture, and not the whole. Moreover, Catholics hold the principles taught by the priests as similar and in some cases above the Word of God.

Catholics say life begins at conception, not The Scripture. The Word of God doesn’t say that. That’s nothing more than a speculation.
I believe there are exceptions for abortions when I read the Bible as a whole. Not everything is black and white.

Animals were not created in God’s image, but that doesn’t mean they don’t have a soul. Can you look at a dog and tell me he doesn’t have a soul? or that his life is not valuable? Is a chicken any different, and why? Animal slaughter came into place after the flood for lack of vegetation, when we go to heaven, there will be no animal slaughter. You wanna be pro life, then don’t kill animals for food, you don’t need them, be a vegan. Paul himself says that all creation is groaning and in pain awaiting for the restoration of all things. Nature itself is also to be redeemed. Christ died to restore animals too. But obviously we’re not in heaven yet, so we have to live and please God according to our circumstances, that is called being pragmatic.

I didn’t say that sperms were humans. The argument brought up by your peers was “why are we destroying the potential life that baby can be?”
All sperms are potential babies. Sperms are also living. Why not give all of them a chance to become someone?
Paul said Levi tithed in Abraham when he was yet inside Abraham. How can he tithe if he wasn’t alive then? When did his life begin? That is a mystery that belongs to God.

Catholics may not believe it’s ok to abort an unborn child. Good for you. But God doesn’t condemn with hell anyone else for doing so when there’s a just reason. Like on rape, and babies that are born with extreme congenital defects. Why bring that baby up like that? so that the RCC can have more members?

The RCC is not immune from mistakes or teaching lies. Its only humble to accept that as humans, they too are subject to error.
You believe it’s never ok? fine, but don’t judge and condemn others for doing something that the Scriptures don’t specifically prohibit, and something based on church interpretation, not what God says. Bring me a Scripture that says:
“Life begins at conception” and another one that says “A father and mother don’t have a right to choose regarding rape, or congenital defects”. I’ll even take paraphrasing. I can argue that life begins way before conception according to the Word of God.

Abortion is killing, that’s a fact, but the reasons behind it do matter. God sent Israel to kill innocent babies, the reasons mattered then. You say you read the Bible as a whole, so do I. Abortion is not a black & white issue.

I already told you that for a person of faith that wants to have the baby anyway, God will work something, but not all babies have the same blessings others have.

Most women I’ve spoken to that have gone through it regret it, but in other cases, it was a wise decision.
I’m simply defending the conscience of those mothers who reluctantly aborted after considering all the factors, and out of love chose to do that, and all the other particular complicated cases.
But Go ahead and condemn with hellfire all those who do.
In regards to the many complicated cases and very complex moral situations, the Catholic church is plainly wrong. And I will say that to the Pope’s face if he were in front of me.

The RCC dares accuse women that abort, but dares not submit child rapists to face justice. I can’t respect that.

The only authority I respect is the Word of God.
The commandment is not Kill as in just taking life. The commandment is “Thou Shalt not Murder” and what God sent Israel to do to those babies was not murder, it was killing.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Do Adventists not believe this part of the Bible?

Sincerely,

Maria1212

Hi Maria1212,

You ask a very interesting question there, so let me give my observation having been a SDA who believed everything deeply that the SDA church taught.

In the past year, in my personal experience, I came across verses in the Bible that either said or did not say what I believed as a SDA.

For example (and I’ve pointed this out in other threads on this forum) I always believed that the evening and morning designation found at the end of each creation day in Genesis also followed the verse regarding the seventh day of creation. It does not, and it blew my mind when it was pointed out to me. Now, I know I’m not as bright as other people so that could have purely been my lack of intelligence. Yet I would have sworn to anyone that the verse read as I thought it did. So I asked a few of my SDA friends with whom I still keep in touch. And without opening the Bible they all agreed that the morning and evening designation followed the seventh day of creation in Genesis. When I told them to open their Bibles and read the verse they too were shocked and didn’t know what to say.

That may have been unique to just us few, but I have a suspicion that most SDAs believe that since the morning and evening phrase is so key to proving a literal 7 day creation and most importantly that the sabbath institued at creation was the saturday we know today.

Another example relates to Jesus and whether or not he ever drank fermented beverages. As you may know the SDA church is against the use of alcohol. Most SDAs will tell you that Jesus never drank fermented beverages, not even on the cross when it was offered to him. In fact many SDAs have made that statment in different threads on this forum. And yet once again the scriptures in the book of John prove otherwise when on the cross, Jesus was offered a drink wine vinegar from a sponge on a branch of hyssop, and he received the drink and then proclaimed “It is finished”.

I was shocked that I had read those passages many many times and never read what they said. In my amazement, I told my wife that it almost had to be something like demonic possession…and she just laughed and told me to stop being dramatic.

But Maria, the more I study and read the Bible now, the more I come across this phenomenon. Another example are the scriptures regarding Mary in the gospels (although I think that blindness phenomenon spans most protestants and not just SDAs).

Regarding your question about SDAs believing John leaping for joy in Elizabeth’s womb when he heard Mary’s voice…I don’t know if it is as much a matter of believing what the Bible says, or actually seeing what the Bible says.

When I obtained the statistics on abortions in SDA hospitals in the early 1990s I was an elder in my SDA church. When I began to talk with the other elders about abortions being performed in SDA hospitals, they too had heard rumors. We discused the appropriate protocol for addressing the problem. Our pastor would not participate but neither did he oppose our efforts. When I obtained the statistics, the other elders were on board and we decided to start at the lowest levels of church authority and work our way up the ladder if needed. It was needed. And yet even going to the top went nowhere.

One day one of the other elders came to me and showed me the verse in the Bible where John lept for joy in his mother’s womb…and the elder’s eyes were opened to the truth.

Now the elders at that chruch, like myself, had read the Bible cover to cover more than once. It is difficult to catch and retain all the verses in the Bible even after the fifth time through.

I believe SDAs believe the Bible and what it says and search for the truths in the sacred scriptures. In fact I don’t know any SDAs who do not search the scriptures for God’s Holy Truth.

The problems I see are as follows:

(continued on next post)

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

(continued from previous post)

The problems I see are as follows:

1. To be able to personally read, understand, and correctly interpret the Bible even under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I believe personnally you will receive from God what you need to know for your personal spiritual life. But can that then be presented to others as the ways for them to live, and as a body of knowledge for the entire church?
2. To study the Bible as an organization, and understand all the implications and moral teachings, in only 165 years. This is why the SDA church is writing position papers on moral issues of our times, such as abortion, environment, homosexuality, etc. There is the need for a religious organization to address these issues and they are doing what they think is correct to address these issues. What they, and most protestant/fundamentalist churches fail to realize is that all of these issues have been addressed…over the past 2,000 years by the Church Jesus established 2000 years ago.
3. A poster in another thread accused SDAs of reading the Bible through the mind and thoughts of Ellen G. White. I think that is what I did for many many years, and I think that explains why I, like so many others, fail to see what scripture verses are really saying if it contradicts a belief we had been taught as SDAs. Is it demonic possession, bedevilment, bewitching…or could it just be human nature and prejudices and mental models of our world and how we were raised? Who knows? I wish you could see the looks and reactions I get from some Catholics when I share with them what I’ve learned about Catholic Just War Theory and our (U.S.A.) involvement in Iraq. Instant heretic might describe their thoughts.

Taking up the cross of, and following, Jesus is difficult. Finding the turth is even harder sometimes. Following the truth once you find it can seem impossible. But it is not. Jesus is the Truth, The Way, and Our Light. Long deep earnest sincere prayer to Jesus for whatever we need is the place to start, remain, and end on our journey. My puruit of Truth led me to the Catholic Church. I also believe it led me initially to the SDA church. Much of who and what I am as a Christian I became thanks to the SDA church!

But if you ask me what Church I recommend…well…that would be the Catholic Church…I believe it is God’s One True Fold. The nice thing is, The Church has taken all the guess work out of being a Christian. Pray, Pray, Pray, Pray…and when you are tired of praying…pray just a little bit more!! And if we throw in a little common sense…we’re good to go!!

My opinions for what they’re worth…did I answer your question, or have I just gone somewhere else in this post:shrug:

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

The RCC dares accuse women that abort, but dares not submit child rapists to face justice. I can’t respect that.

Nor could I if that were true. You obviously know about those molestation crimes, so they were not “hidden” very well as you claim. But have you read about the consequences and justice in those cases? Maybe not in your country, but it was all over the news in this country…priests going to jail, millions and milllions and millions paid out in damages. If you bring up a story you need to follow through to its conclusion.

And by the way, it is not now, nor has it ever been the teaching or policy of The Catholic Church to allow child abuse…not even in extreme or rare cases.

You cannot compare those acts, as heinous as they are, to SDA church policy regarding abortion.

God bless all!!!

 

[Maria1212]

(continued from previous post)

My opinions for what they’re worth…did I answer your question, or have I just gone somewhere else in this post:shrug:

God bless all!!!

Hi Patrick,

Thank you for your very eloquent response. It did answer my question and explains a lot. It reminds me what Scott and Kimberly Hanh wrote in one of their books describing their journey to the Catholic Church. They realized they had highlighted so much Scripture in their study Bibles and went back and read the unhighlighted parts and realized much of the Scripture they had somehow missed supports the Church`s teaching on the Eucharist etc. It is like how you wrote about Jesus drinking wine. Sometimes we see what we want to see and do not always have the eyes to see what is there. Just like with analysis, it is useful to see if you can prove the opposite of what you believe to be true. If you can, your initial assumption is false.

The thing I like about these forums is we can explain why we believe what we believe. It isnt about trying to convince the other side to believe what we believe. It is the job of the Holy Spirit to lead people home. When listening to the Journey Home link that Mary Roses posted, the guest speaker said the best thing we can do is pray for our Adventist friends. She describes the fear that many Adventists have of Catholics, and how difficult it is when you realize you need to leave the Adventist Church you had loved so much. I really recommend that episode if you havent heard it already.

As for abortion, it just seems so black and white to me. Taking the life of an unborn child is murder, and there can be no exceptions for that. I know some Adventists are working hard to change their churchs stance on abortion. I know that is hard because if you chance one doctrine or discipline, it is admitting the church was incorrect in the first place. But I will continue praying for our Adventist brothers and sisters. I also hope they will start something like Rachels Vineyard (rachelsvineyard.org/) to help those mothers and fathers who have had abortions heal.

As a side note, I just moved back to the United States from Japan. I have lived there more than four years total. Japan is mostly Buddhist and Shinto but most Japanese do not practice their religion on a daily basis. However, there are shrines “all over the place” for aborted fetuses because they recognize the unborn child has a soul. It breaks my heart to see those shrines. At the same time, it is good to know that women who have had abortions have somewhere to go to pray for their unborn children and seek comfort in that.

I just hope that whatever ones belief system is, the murder of unborn children will stop. As a Christian, I believe Gods Word must be obeyed. Without exception. Because God knows better than us.

Thank you again for your response. It helped me gain a lot of understanding.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[Maria1212]

We permit abortion in very particular extreme cases.
You speak of us as if we were deliberately looking for pregnant women to perform abortions for just about every possible reason.

I never said this. But abortion is wrong in every instance. Abortion takes the life of an unborn child and violates God`s commandments.
*
I respectfully disagree with you. I could make the same claim that Catholics only take some parts of the Scripture, and not the whole. Moreover, Catholics hold the principles taught by the priests as similar and in some cases above the Word of God.*]

I understand you disagree. I am trying to explain why we believe what we believe. It is the Holy Spririts job to change another persons mind. However, it is not true that Catholics put what a priest says above the Word of God. Catholic teaching NEVER contradicts or violates the Word of God.
**
I believe there are exceptions for abortions when I read the Bible as a whole. Not everything is black and white.**

God`s commandments are black and white. There are no exceptions.

*** You wanna be pro life, then don’t kill animals for food, you don’t need them, be a vegan. Paul himself says that all creation is groaning and in pain awaiting for the restoration of all things. Nature itself is also to be redeemed. Christ died to restore animals too. ***

I am a juicer and drink vegetable juice on a daily basis! But my dietary preferences have nothing to do with my religion. Our Lord does not command us to be vegetarians. It does not say this in the Bible. On the contrary, in the New Testament Bible we read that that nothing going into the mouth is unclean, and we should not judge others by what they eat.

I didn’t say that sperms were humans. The argument brought up by your peers was "why are we destroying the potential life that baby can be? All sperms are potential babies. Sperms are also living. Why not give all of them a chance to become someone?

Babies are life. Life begins when the sperm fertilizes the egg. Neither can become a baby by itself. God chooses when life begins, not me, so you will have to ask God why not all sperm have the opportunity to fertilize eggs.

Catholics may not believe it’s ok to abort an unborn child. Good for you. But God doesn’t condemn with hell anyone else for doing so when there’s a just reason. Like on rape, and babies that are born with extreme congenital defects. Why bring that baby up like that? so that the RCC can have more members?

Christians with an accurate understanding of Gods commandment know it is never okay to murder an unborn child. Catholics are Christian, but many of our non-Catholic Protestant brothers and sisters have this same understanding. Many Jews are also pro-life based on the teachings of the Torah. The Pro-life movement is not a uniquely Catholic movement. It is made of of people of all faiths who understand that abortion terminates the life of another human being. But as a Catholic, there are no exceptions to our Lords teachings. Adventists obviously insert their own exceptions, or they would not permit abortion. But to reiterate, our Lord decides when life starts and when it ends. To decide on our own and kill the life of another is a violation of our Lord`s teaching.

Your statement that Catholics are against abortion to “get more members” is offensive and appalling.

Continued on next post.*

 

[Maria1212]

The RCC is not immune from mistakes or teaching lies. Its only humble to accept that as humans, they too are subject to error.
You believe it’s never ok? fine, but don’t judge and condemn others for doing something that the Scriptures don’t specifically prohibit, and something based on church interpretation, not what God says. .

Individual members of the Catholic Church are sinners. Our Lord, however, is not a liar. It is the Word of God that condemns murder, not me as a person.

Sincerely,

Maria1212