P
peary1
Guest
She/he said ‘partner’, not friend. Also, SDAs - a lot of them anyway - are strict vegetarians and do not drink coffee because caffeine is a drug.
- Status
A
Arglaze
Guest
That is not a reference to “keeping the sunday holy”. Its just a meeting to break bread. In fact the day that Jesus broke bread and instituted the “Santa Cena” (I don’t know its translation to english, but you know what I mean) was on a Thursday, unless I’m wrong. Then Friday he was crucified.
Any day is good to meet and do church activities, including breaking bread. But only one day was set aside to “keep/observe” and that is the Sabbath (Saturday).
The apostles meeting on Sunday to study the Bible does not contradict the Sabbath observance. However keeping the Sunday Holy, would be in direct contradiction to the Bible. And the Apostles did not do that.
Nothing wrong with meeting on Sunday. There is something wrong with keeping it holy. Its something God didn’t ask of us.
Ariel >>
A
Arglaze
Guest
True, but if any adventist tells you that if you eat meat you go to hell, then tell them to give you scriptures for that.
Also, on drinking Coffee, we adventists agreed during the foundation process of our church to abstain from anything that could harm our bodies, among those are Alcohol, Tobbaco, Coffee (since they didn’t have decaf and even so I don’t drink it cuze it tastes nasty
, jk )The point is we consider the body the Temple of the Holy Spirit, but I have to admit, if meat is what’s available to you. You do not sin by eating it. Our abstention from eating meat is slightly more complex and I would rather avoid the long explanation, but I’ll give u the short answer.
As Christians preparing to be in a place where the death of animals will not be necessary to satisfy our physical needs, we believe not eating meat is part of that preparation and it has to do with our clearness of mind to discern and the control over gluttony.
With that in mind I will tell you, you can be a vegetarian and still eat unhealthy. So its not a point I use to bring people to Christ, but taking care of our bodies is a god given command.
Ariel >>
S
SoulEspresso
Guest
St. Justin’s remark is the earliest we have of Sundaykeeping, but it was well after the last apostle died–and it’s not an NT quote.
To add to Ariel’s answer, the Sabbath is mentioned literally dozens of times in the NT, mostly in the gospels. The Sabbath itself is never a negative for Jesus–only how it was being observed. Our Lord could have abrogated it (it was His day, Mark 2:28-29), but the most controversial thing He says is, “… it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” Post-resurrection, in just the book of Acts, you have four mentions of Sabbath in chapter 13, you have 17:2, 18:4 – and you could try to make the case that they were just trying to connect with Jews to tell them about the Messiah, except that Acts 16:13 has the apostles searching for a place to pray on the Sabbath because there is no synagogue in that city.
Sabbath was no longer a racial-cultural signifier as it was for Jewish people, but a few brief mentions of the first day of the week in no way undermine the vast weight of evidence that Christians observed the day indefinitely after the Resurrection.
In fact, if all of Christendom would return to observing the seventh day set apart in the Old and New Testaments, perhaps it would go a long way towards healing the historical scars we have over conflicts with the Jewish people.
P
Patrick_Murebil
Guest
***Genesis2: 1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.*** New International Version
According to the record, at the very beginning of our time, it is God who rests and blesses the 7th day and makes it holy, because on it he rested from His work of creating.
He does not command Adam and Eve to rest. He does not command them to remember the 7th day. Why?
Because the 7th day of creation was eternity. There was no weekly cycle to repeat. That is not to say that there was no longer evening and morning. But the 7th day was eternal communion with God each and every day for eternity. We once again enter that communion with God through Jesus Christ…as Paul talks of entering God’s Rest in the book of Hebrews. Eternal commuion with God every day…God’s Rest, as orignially intended and given to us when He created our world. Adam and Eve didn’t rest on the 7th day, no, they worked. And their work was tending the garden, raising a family, living each day together with each other, their family, and God!!! See Genesis chapter 2.
Just look at the striking language of the creation story. The record clearly shows that each day is seperated by the evening and the morning. At least the first 6 days are.
That designation of seperation is absent on the 7th day. There is no designation of evening and morning for the 7th day. Why? Because from that point on the 7th day was eternity with God. And then there was the fall of man. And then a weekly sabbath to remember the 7th day of creation was instituted. To remember God’s Holy intent and plan for mankind. Then it became what we know today as Saturday.
To say that humans after the fall of man kept a weekly sabbath until it is first mentioned in Exodus at Mt.Sinai, after the Hebrews left Egypt, is to make assumptions and come to conclusions that are not actually documented in sacred scripture. Does that mean that making assumptions and coming to conclusions about beliefs which are not specifically documented in the sacred scriptures is wrong? I suppose the answer would have to be yes if you go by the Bible only.
But if the answer is no, we are now in the area of teaching Biblical things without the authority of the Bible. So now the question is, who has the authority to come up with these conclusions?
Is it a man, every man, a church? From the Bible we read about God establishing His church…the work of the apostles in the New Testament.
Was it the Church founded by the apostles 2000 years ago (which includes the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church, both of which trace their origins directly to the apostles); or the Seventh-day Adventist Church founded approximately 160 years ago that arose out of the radical Puritan/Calvinistic community climate of New England in the United States of America?
God bless all!!!
F
fbl9
Guest
eating meat when has the choice not to makes the mind unclean???it is not what goes into a man’s mouth that makes him unlean but rather what comes out of it…so will you all take this scripture and declare it is a sin to vomit,or spitTrue, but if any adventist tells you that if you eat meat you go to hell, then tell them to give you scriptures for that.
Also, on drinking Coffee, we adventists agreed during the foundation process of our church to abstain from anything that could harm our bodies, among those are Alcohol, Tobbaco, Coffee (since they didn’t have decaf and even so I don’t drink it cuze it tastes nasty
The point is we consider the body the Temple of the Holy Spirit, but I have to admit, if meat is what’s available to you. You do not sin by eating it. Our abstention from eating meat is slightly more complex and I would rather avoid the long explanation, but I’ll give u the short answer.
As Christians preparing to be in a place where the death of animals will not be necessary to satisfy our physical needs, we believe not eating meat is part of that preparation and it has to do with our clearness of mind to discern and the control over gluttony.
With that in mind I will tell you, you can be a vegetarian and still eat unhealthy. So its not a point I use to bring people to Christ, but taking care of our bodies is a god given command.
Ariel >>
F
fbl9
Guest
must be nice to be able to dismiss any scripture that doesn’t support SDA…
A
Arglaze
Guest
I’m sorry, I didn’t say that eating meat makes the mind unclean… Where did you read that?
I said clearness of mind, speaking of gluttony. Because our brains are hindered if we eat in an unhealthy manner, or too much food, red meat is harder to process by the stomach than vegetables or white meat like fish, chicken, etc. Scientific fact.
And again I repeat, eating meat is not a sin. So the scripture you quote is irrelevant to what I said.
We just believe that as people preparing to be in an environment where the killing of animals is not necessary to sustain life, we slowly but surely want to change our diet to that of the Garden of Eden. But that is just personal conviction of SDAs, its not something that matters when it comes to your personal salvation.
So why fix something that isn’t broken??
F
fbl9
Guest
sorry my mistake i read the “r” in clearness as an N …
A
Arglaze
Guest
Cool.
S
SoulEspresso
Guest
It must be nice to exchange many clear texts for a few unclear ones–texts that a person can stand upside down to support a tradition that contradicts the apostles’ own practice.
F
fbl9
Guest
oh how mistaken of me it seemed so clear that it was the apostle’s doing the quotes gave to you.some body sneaked them in the bible…i guess…
S
SoulEspresso
Guest
I’m afraid I don’t understand your intent here; the lack of punctuation is confusing.oh how mistaken of me it seemed so clear that it was the apostle’s doing the quotes gave to you.some body sneaked them in the bible…i guess…
If you go to catholic.org, and look in the Jerusalem Bible they have there, and compare your NT hits for the keyword “Sabbath” versus all eight texts in the NT that mention the first day of the week, you’ll find that nowhere is the first day venerated or set aside in any way. Yes, they met on the first day–but Acts 2:46 says they met every day, i.e. every time they got the chance.
The only day they “kept holy” was the same day Jesus kept holy, the seventh one. They went to synagogue, and when that was unavailable they looked for a place apart to pray.
As for the couple of texts that seem to downplay Sabbath, they’re not clear or numerous enough to undo the weight of the practix in Acts – since those verses tend to be aimed at a misuse or misunderstanding of the Sabbath and what it represents.
You’d think that Jesus would have planned ahead and said something about changing one of the Ten Commandments, which had been observed by His people for thousands of years … but He didn’t.
It shouldn’t matter to a Catholic–and I by no means intend that as a put-down. It’s just a fact. The RC faith has the teaching of the church in addition to Scripture. If the teaching of the church says keep Sunday, a faithful RC should keep Sunday. A sola scriptura Christian can’t go there.
P
Patrick_Murebil
Guest
Since the apostles met every day, does that in any way imply the importance of each and every day in the life of a Christian? And while there may be no mention that the first day is to be venerated, neither is there any mention that the seventh day should be venerated in the NT. Resarch what the Bible says about the sabbath in the approximately 57 verses in the NT that contain the word “sabbath” and the one verse that contains the phrase “seventh day”
And let’s face it…the resurrection of Jesus was the most momentous and crowning event in salvation history, especially for the disciples who saw Him crucified. I ask you, if you watched your Lord crucified, and went into hiding because you were now confused about all He had taught you and your high expectaions were seemingly gone, and then He came forth from the grave…wouldn’t that event and that day be all encompassing in your joy? It would be difficult to not rejoice on that day and have it hold a special place in your being. I’m willing to bet that you remember the day you were baptized and how special of an event that was. How much more so the resurrection of our Lord and Saviour that now ensures OUR eternal life!!
And what evidence is there from the scriptures in Acts (or anywhere else in the NT) that they were in the synagogue to keep the sabbath holy? The record of what the apostles did on the sabbath in Acts can be found in chapters 13,15,16,17,and 18. In these scriptures there is no mention of them going to the synagogue to keep the sabbath holy. No, they were going to the synagogue to teach the Jews about Jesus, because that is where the Jews were. Remember, the gospel was to be preached first to the house of Israel, and then to the gentiles.
How can texts “seem to downplay” sabbath? The texts say what the texts say. Or do you mean to say that we can now impose our own, or someone else’s meaning on scripture in order to understand what it “really means”?
You’d think that if the sabbath was as important as you say it is that Jesus would have spent more time teaching about that in the gospels, but the record of scripture proves otherwise. He spent much time teaching about the law and expounding on the Kingdom of God in Matthew chapters 5,6,and 7. And yet when it comes to the sabbath, the scripture record regarding Jesus and the sabbath documents the religious leaders following Him around, and trying to trap Him and accuse Him of breaking the sabbath. His responses to them are interesting. You’d think that if the 7th day sabbath is so important for Christians, especially before He returns the second time, that He would have spent some time teaching about that…but He didn’t.
I never cease to be amazed at where sola sciptura Christians go…and it doesn’t take long for them to go beyond the scriptures either!
And speaking of sola scriptura…is there a SDA, or any other sola scriptura Christian, who would address my post above? That is Post # 65 in this thread…a little above this one… either to agree or disagree and show from that scripture how they arrive at the conclusions they do regarding the sabbath being instituted at creation. Thanks in advance!!
God bless all!!!
A
Arglaze
Guest
Sure. But before showing that, it would be wise to take other things in consideration.
Think of the system of sacrifices before Israel ever existed. Does Genesis say that God told Adam and Eve, or Cain and Abel to sacrifice a Lamb for remission of sins? No He didn’t. The only reference regarding this was “Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.” Genesis 3:21
How could we arrive to the conclusion that God told them to kill a lamb (symbolic of Christ) for the remission of sins? It can only be found later in Scripture, just like Abel’s offering, etc. It is something that is understood in the context of the story.
In that Light then, lets read then:
Gen 2:2-3 - “And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.”
Take into consideration that Adam and Eve were made before the Sabbath, not after, therefore they must have observed the Sabbath which God sanctified and rested, how could they work while God rested? The creature follows the creator. The understanding of the observance of the Sabbath existed before God re-instituted it in Sinai. Those who had kept the Word of God knew about it, example of that is what Moses told Israel even before God handed the tables of stone regarding its observance.
Exodus 16:23-30 - “And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, Tomorrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning… And Moses said, Eat that today; for today is a sabbath unto the LORD: today ye shall not find it in the field… Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none… And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath… So the people rested on the seventh day.”
It existed before Israel even got the Decalogue, and God says it clearly by telling us to “remember” because it’s not a new thing, its from creation and he even ties it to creation, and explains how to observe it.
Exodus 20:8-11 - “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.”
God would not reference it to creation, unless it’s something he instituted at that time, which Adam and Eve who were made on the 6th day, must have been witness of and gave unto their children and so forth for many generations till it was lost through paganism, and God used his people to restore it and keep its knowledge. Therefore the Sabbath is an eternal commandment just like the other 9. Even in heaven after sin is destroyed, we will keep the sabbath.
Isaiah 66:23 - “And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.”
P
Patrick_Murebil
Guest
I am wondering how you arrived at the conclusion that God told them to kill a lamb for the remission of sins in that verse. It says that God made the coats of skin, and He clothed them. God provided for them at the time. Later God instituted the sacrificial system for His followers. That’s some fancy interpreting that you are doing to conclude from the future sacrificial system that it was in place at this point in time. So if not the Bible, what authority do you use for this interpretation?
God’s Rest at Creation was the conclusion of His creating and His proclamation that all He had created was good. God rested from all His work. The seventh day of creation was eternity with God for Adam and Eve. That is why there is no mention of the evening and the morning being the 7th day, as in the other six days of creation.
Take into consideration why Adam and Eve were created.
This is the first place in the Bible where “sabbath” is mentioned, and where God begins to teach the freed Hebrew slaves to trust and follow Him. If you go back and read the entire chapter from verse 1, you should clearly see the context of the verses you quote. The Israelites were grumbling about wanting to go back to Egypt and actually say they preferred death to freedom, verse 1-3.
4 Then the LORD said to Moses, “I will rain down bread from heaven for you. The people are to go out each day and gather enough for that day. In this way I will test them and see whether they will follow my instructions. 5 On the sixth day they are to prepare what they bring in, and that is to be twice as much as they gather on the other days.”
God was beginning to teach and prepare His people for salvation…which was to trust God and follow His intructions. And in response to the grumblings God promises to provide meat from the earth and bread from heaven (a type of Jesus who is the Bread of Life sent from heaven). And God sent them this food why?
11 The LORD said to Moses, 12 "I have heard the grumbling of the Israelites. Tell them, ‘At twilight you will eat meat, and in the morning you will be filled with bread. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God.’ "
So they would know that He was the Lord their God.
And this is where God begins to institute a weekly, 24 hour day sabbath, to teach the Israelites about HIS REST, His initial plan for mankind at creation.
The sabbath was new here…at least according to the Bible. God’s Rest is from Creation. The sabbath was given to the Israelites, freed from Egypt, to teach them about God’s Rest.
This is a wonderful subject to study!!! Just read these verses in context and pray for light to understand!!
God bless all!!!
A
Arglaze
Guest
No, I’m not using some strange stuff to bring conclusions about the institution of sacrificial system that Abel, Noah, Job, Abraham, and the patriarchs practiced before Israel existed. That’s just the Scriptures.
Either way, God’s giving us the Sabbath, and no where after that is the Sabbath abolished, and yet we chose to not practice it? On who’s authority? Jesus and the Apostles practiced the sabbath observance because they already knew about it, and it is a commandment of the Decalogue which Catholics conveniently changed in their Scriptures. And that is what I call, putting words in the mouth of God.
We conveniently didn’t address the last points in Exodus 20 & Isaiah 66:23 that states in heaven we’ll still keep it. Why would God re-institute in Heaven after sin is undone, the Sabbath observance? God’s Law doesn’t change, and yet a human does change it. Cutting the 2nd commandment to allow the making of graven images, and take away the explanation of the 4th to eliminate how God wanted it to be kept for something that leaves it open for anyone’s interpretation.
What Jesus wrote on the tables:
2nd commandment
“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that is in heaven above,” (that includes God or Jesus), … Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them…"
4th commandment
“Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy, six days shalt thou… me”
Man made changes:
2nd commandment
“Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain…”
4th commandment
“Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.” (Period)
B
bpbasilphx
Guest
**
What Jesus wrote on the tables:
2nd commandment
“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that is in heaven above,” (that includes God or Jesus), … Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them…"
4th commandment
“Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy, six days shalt thou… me”
Man made changes:
2nd commandment
“Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain…”
4th commandment
“Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.” (Period)**
Actually, the Son/Logos was not known as “Jesus” until His incarnation in the womb of Mary.
What Jesus wrote on the tables:
2nd commandment
“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that is in heaven above,” (that includes God or Jesus), … Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them…"
4th commandment
“Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy, six days shalt thou… me”
Man made changes:
2nd commandment
“Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain…”
4th commandment
“Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.” (Period)**
Actually, the Son/Logos was not known as “Jesus” until His incarnation in the womb of Mary.
C
crgirl
Guest
The Bible, and specially the New Testament, is a recompilation of Books that TESTIFY of the Life of Jesus, and the lives and experiences of the first believers!!! The Foudation of the early Church
We, Catholics, (and all Christians) believe that it is the Word of God, Inspired by the Holy Spirit.
All this books where found, kept and put together by the first Centuries church! Which is no other than the Catholic Church!!
It was the Church the one that had to discern what books , from all the ones found, where in line with the true teachings of Jesus!!
So , if all this is true, and if we truly believe that Jesus rose and is Alive Today, working on us through the Holy Spirit… Why must we think that all that Divine inspiration stopped or ended with the apostles?
What about the next generations of disciples?
Those, that we Catholics, know as Fathers of the Church?
What about all their writings, letters, encyclicals, etc,
This is why I do not agree with Bible Fundamentalists:
If they don’t find Biblical proof, then they do not believe.
Thinking like that is as accepting that the Holy Spirit is “done with His work” and not recognizing that He lives in the Church, ispiring, EVEN TODAY, God’s message to HIS CHURCH!!!
We, Catholics, (and all Christians) believe that it is the Word of God, Inspired by the Holy Spirit.
All this books where found, kept and put together by the first Centuries church! Which is no other than the Catholic Church!!
It was the Church the one that had to discern what books , from all the ones found, where in line with the true teachings of Jesus!!
So , if all this is true, and if we truly believe that Jesus rose and is Alive Today, working on us through the Holy Spirit… Why must we think that all that Divine inspiration stopped or ended with the apostles?
What about the next generations of disciples?
Those, that we Catholics, know as Fathers of the Church?
What about all their writings, letters, encyclicals, etc,
This is why I do not agree with Bible Fundamentalists:
If they don’t find Biblical proof, then they do not believe.
Thinking like that is as accepting that the Holy Spirit is “done with His work” and not recognizing that He lives in the Church, ispiring, EVEN TODAY, God’s message to HIS CHURCH!!!
G
GoneFishin
Guest
A quick question? Does God follow mans time? or should we worship everyday and keep all days holy? Good thing the Catholic Church holds Mass everyday:thumbsup:Even though we cant all go to Mass everyday, at least we know we worship everyday(we as in all Catholics because we are all One,Holy,Catholic and Apostolic Church)
- Status