Seventh Day Adventist Teachings On Hell

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To my dear brothers & sisters in all communions. In reply to this deep subject, I would like to make a couple of points. In regards to the eternal fire. Jude 7 states that Sodom & Gomorrha were burned with eternal fire. They are not burning today. They have been found & are ashes as the sriptures state. The eternal fire stated is eternal in its consequences. The scripture states " unquenchable fire". There are fires burning today that are deemed unqunchable, such as hills of tires, coal fires underground, etc… No man can put them out. They will eventually burn themselves out, due to lack of fuel to burn. The sriptures state in 1 Timothy 6:16 that the Almighty only has immortality. Man is called all throughout the scriptures mortal. Nowhere in the bible does it say we have an immortal soul. On the contrary it says the soul that sinneth it shall die. The wages of sin is death. The dead know not anything, according to scripture. Please look up the following for the nature of man. Job 4:17; 1 Cor.15:51,54; Romans2:6,7 states for us to seek after immortality. Why seek after something if we already have it. Gen.2:7 tells us how man was made. We became a living soul. Scripture does not portray a soul, disembodied from the body floating around somwhere. Read Ps.104:29; Job34:14,15; Even the animals are called souls, Gen7:21,22; Eccl.3:19-21; Gen, 1: 30. What happens at death? Read Eccl.12:7;9:5,6,10 ; Ps.146:3,4. What is the state of the dead? Read John11:11; Acts7:60; Job14:12-14; King David was called a man after Gods own heart. If anyone should be in heaven, he should. Please read Acts2:29,34. There are scores more texts concerning this subject. May we all study to show ourselves approved unto God, a workman who needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Work out your own salvation in fear & trembling. Take heed that no man deceive you. We were created free moral agents to choose, What is the final reward of the wicked? Please read, Matt.10;28; Ezek.18:4; Ps.37:20; Jude 7; 2 Peter2:6; Obadiah 16; Malachi4:1-3. One last note. If you ask an athiest why he or she is an athiest, the majority will tell you they don’t wan’t to serve a God, that we say is just (fair in his judgements), & a God who is love, & make a sinner burn for eternity, without ceasing, for a few years of sinning. It perplexes me that the christian world at large believes the father of lies, who contradicted our Creator Who said we would die if we ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good & evil. The evil one said we wouldn’t die. That was the first great sermon on false doctrine on the immortality of the soul. May the Spirit bless each & everyone of you searcing for truth as it is in our Savior. Your brother in our Master, Redeemer & Savior, Larry.
 
larry_m said:
To my dear brothers & sisters in all communions. In reply to this deep subject, I would like to make a couple of points. In regards to the eternal fire. Jude 7 states that Sodom & Gomorrha were burned with eternal fire. They are not burning today. They have been found & are ashes as the sriptures state. The eternal fire stated is eternal in its consequences. The scripture states " unquenchable fire". There are fires burning today that are deemed unqunchable, such as hills of tires, coal fires underground, etc… No man can put them out. They will eventually burn themselves out, due to lack of fuel to burn. The sriptures state in 1 Timothy 6:16 that the Almighty only has immortality. Man is called all throughout the scriptures mortal. Nowhere in the bible does it say we have an immortal soul. On the contrary it says the soul that sinneth it shall die. The wages of sin is death. The dead know not anything, according to scripture. Please look up the following for the nature of man. Job 4:17; 1 Cor.15:51,54; Romans2:6,7 states for us to seek after immortality. Why seek after something if we already have it. Gen.2:7 tells us how man was made. We became a living soul. Scripture does not portray a soul, disembodied from the body floating around somwhere. Read Ps.104:29; Job34:14,15; Even the animals are called souls, Gen7:21,22; Eccl.3:19-21; Gen, 1: 30. What happens at death? Read Eccl.12:7;9:5,6,10 ; Ps.146:3,4. What is the state of the dead? Read John11:11; Acts7:60; Job14:12-14; King David was called a man after Gods own heart. If anyone should be in heaven, he should. Please read Acts2:29,34. There are scores more texts concerning this subject. May we all study to show ourselves approved unto God, a workman who needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Work out your own salvation in fear & trembling. Take heed that no man deceive you. We were created free moral agents to choose, What is the final reward of the wicked? Please read, Matt.10;28; Ezek.18:4; Ps.37:20; Jude 7; 2 Peter2:6; Obadiah 16; Malachi4:1-3. One last note. If you ask an athiest why he or she is an athiest, the majority will tell you they don’t wan’t to serve a God, that we say is just (fair in his judgements), & a God who is love, & make a sinner burn for eternity, without ceasing, for a few years of sinning. It perplexes me that the christian world at large believes the father of lies, who contradicted our Creator Who said we would die if we ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good & evil. The evil one said we wouldn’t die. That was the first great sermon on false doctrine on the immortality of the soul. May the Spirit bless each & everyone of you searcing for truth as it is in our Savior. Your brother in our Master, Redeemer & Savior, Larry.
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Straight out of the JW playbook. I have heard this one before.

Can I ask you a question?

Why do you think the pains of Hell will be a literal burning of flesh for an eternity?

Curious.
 
larry_m said:
To my dear brothers & sisters in all communions. In reply to this deep subject, I would like to make a couple of points. In regards to the eternal fire. Jude 7 states that Sodom & Gomorrha were burned with eternal fire. They are not burning today. They have been found & are ashes as the sriptures state. The eternal fire stated is eternal in its consequences. The scripture states " unquenchable fire". There are fires burning today that are deemed unqunchable, such as hills of tires, coal fires underground, etc… No man can put them out. They will eventually burn themselves out, due to lack of fuel to burn. The sriptures state in 1 Timothy 6:16 that the Almighty only has immortality. Man is called all throughout the scriptures mortal. Nowhere in the bible does it say we have an immortal soul. On the contrary it says the soul that sinneth it shall die. The wages of sin is death. The dead know not anything, according to scripture. Please look up the following for the nature of man. Job 4:17; 1 Cor.15:51,54; Romans2:6,7 states for us to seek after immortality. Why seek after something if we already have it. Gen.2:7 tells us how man was made. We became a living soul. Scripture does not portray a soul, disembodied from the body floating around somwhere. Read Ps.104:29; Job34:14,15; Even the animals are called souls, Gen7:21,22; Eccl.3:19-21; Gen, 1: 30. What happens at death? Read Eccl.12:7;9:5,6,10 ; Ps.146:3,4. What is the state of the dead? Read John11:11; Acts7:60; Job14:12-14; King David was called a man after Gods own heart. If anyone should be in heaven, he should. Please read Acts2:29,34. There are scores more texts concerning this subject. May we all study to show ourselves approved unto God, a workman who needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Work out your own salvation in fear & trembling. Take heed that no man deceive you. We were created free moral agents to choose, What is the final reward of the wicked? Please read, Matt.10;28; Ezek.18:4; Ps.37:20; Jude 7; 2 Peter2:6; Obadiah 16; Malachi4:1-3. One last note. If you ask an athiest why he or she is an athiest, the majority will tell you they don’t wan’t to serve a God, that we say is just (fair in his judgements), & a God who is love, & make a sinner burn for eternity, without ceasing, for a few years of sinning. It perplexes me that the christian world at large believes the father of lies, who contradicted our Creator Who said we would die if we ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good & evil. The evil one said we wouldn’t die. That was the first great sermon on false doctrine on the immortality of the soul. May the Spirit bless each & everyone of you searcing for truth as it is in our Savior. Your brother in our Master, Redeemer & Savior, Larry.
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Larry,
Were you answering a specific post, or is this your understanding of the SDA position on Hell? I guess I am not sure whether you were just wanting to preach to us, or if you were responding to something specific on this thread? Are you wanting to discuss this? If so, we would be happy, but why not pick one point at a time so we can have a discussion as opposed to a sermonette? Thanks
 
There are a number of interesting points to reply to above; however I only have a second or two.

I would like to ask a quick question as food for thought till I can get back on the week end:

A few of you have characterized my last few posts as “emotional.” I would like to ask why; but also can you give details? What specifically is “emotional” and why?
 
To hellisreal. I know that mans wisdom is foolishness unto God. I am a man. It behooves me to try & stick with scripture. Fire burns. The wicked are cast into the lake of fire. Can you show me in the Greek or Hebrew that this lake of fire is not a burning fire? Asaph, in Psalms, was lamenting to The Almighty that the wicked always had it good. He was directed to go to the sanctuary & see its services. When the fat of the lamb was cut out & put on the altar, it was burned up into smoke. Asaph then said to himself, now I see the end of the wicked & quit complaining. We, as God, should take no delight in the death of the wicked. JW’s, as you stated, are looking for truth asI hope & pray we all are. I Cor.8:2 tells me we don’t know things the way we ought to know them. Truth is eternal in its scope. I am not a Jw, but I pray for them as I pray for all my brothers 7 sisters in all communions. There are some harsh words being spoken in this forum. Even if we have all truth, it means nothing without the love our Father has to offer us through His Son. May we all, in our discourses, ask for discernment, respect for others views, & the fruit of the Eternal Spirit. Without the Spirit of our Savior in our discussions, it proves to be unfruitful. Remember there is one accuser of the bretheren. Lets not have him be our father. Your brother in our precious Savior, Larry.
 
I truly wonder whether one would consider Anger, wrath and fury as negative virtues? And if yes, then would God have those virtues? And if yes, Why and how come?

Would be nice if I could get some opinions =)

And lets be very honest here… all this statements bout eternal fire and burning are all just terms and words describing hell, believe me. Hell is just basically a situation or a condition where a soul is deprive of the very presense of God. And that in itself is an unimaginable agony which even fire itself cannot compete with. If there was a hell, then I believe that would be the most precise definition of hell there is.

And brothers and sisters in Christ. Please do not take things too literally. The bible was written by man whom are inspired by God. But the bible is not literally written by God. There are things to be taken literally, there are things which shouldn’t be taken literally.

Think out of the box.
Open your mind.

And have a good day =)

p/s : This are just my 2cents by the way. Feel free to fire me
away =)
 
Dear Larry,
I am a woman. It behooves me to stick to scripture too.

There are many passages in the bible that speak of Hell. I am curious why you limit it to the ones you cite here in this post.

Also, Who here is taking delight in the “death” of the wicked?

I take this to mean you do believe in Hell, and you also take a literalist position of eternal flesh burning.

Am I correct?
larry_m said:
To hellisreal. I know that mans wisdom is foolishness unto God. I am a man. It behooves me to try & stick with scripture. Fire burns. The wicked are cast into the lake of fire. Can you show me in the Greek or Hebrew that this lake of fire is not a burning fire? Asaph, in Psalms, was lamenting to The Almighty that the wicked always had it good. He was directed to go to the sanctuary & see its services. When the fat of the lamb was cut out & put on the altar, it was burned up into smoke. Asaph then said to himself, now I see the end of the wicked & quit complaining. We, as God, should take no delight in the death of the wicked. JW’s, as you stated, are looking for truth asI hope & pray we all are. I Cor.8:2 tells me we don’t know things the way we ought to know them. Truth is eternal in its scope. I am not a Jw, but I pray for them as I pray for all my brothers 7 sisters in all communions. There are some harsh words being spoken in this forum. Even if we have all truth, it means nothing without the love our Father has to offer us through His Son. May we all, in our discourses, ask for discernment, respect for others views, & the fruit of the Eternal Spirit. Without the Spirit of our Savior in our discussions, it proves to be unfruitful. Remember there is one accuser of the bretheren. Lets not have him be our father. Your brother in our precious Savior, Larry.
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👍 Dear all contributors,

This is my first posting ever on your forum. Hope I do it right! Firstly a few observations: I am surprised at how much `spiritual bickering’ goes on in all forums (not just yours). Surely as Christians, we need to say things firstly in love… Secondly, after reading a number of your forums regarding Protestant:Catholic debates – this is a waste of time, since the two groups have totally opposing PARADIGMS regarding authority, and arguing from both sides does not make sense!

I am a Seventhday Adventist Bible teacher at a Christian school, and am amazed that a worldwide church like yours would even bother to mention our insignificant little group of fellow believers. I am flattered…

About Hell – you have covered a fair amount of ground on what SDAs believe, with a few misconceptions.
May I suggest the following: the use of a verse or two from Holy Scripture to prove your point is not very sound theology – there is a much better principle called THE WEIGHT OF EVIDENCE, which means you look at the overall picture, and interpret a seemingly contradictory verse in the light of total scripture.

When we do this, we find a God so loving that He gives His Only Son Jesus Christu to die for a planet in rebellion, knowing that most of the inhabitants don’t appreciate His efforts…

Ultimately, after God has given Lucifer the chance to prove his point that `God’s way is the wrong way’, there has to come a time when this earth has to be wiped clean of ALL TRACES OF SIN. Revelation 20 and 21 paint the picture of Lucifer and his hordes surrounding the Holy City/New Jerusalem that has come down from heaven. They attack the city in a desperate bid to wrest rulership of this planet from God. ``But fire came down from heaven and CONSUMED them (consume means to burn up completely!), and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire… and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.’’ Rev. 20:9,10

The saints sit inside the city, watching the devil and his followers burning for ever and ever – is this a realistic picture of heavenly bliss''? Ask any Bible scholar, and they will point out that the term forever and ever is used to denote finality in the Bible -- eg. Isaiah 34:8-10 speaks of the judgement of Edom For the Lord has a day of vengeance…and the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into brimstone… night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up for ever… it shall lie waste… for ever and ever… but the hawk and the porcupine shall possess it…’’ It is obvious that the fire will end, because animals will inhabit it.

In closing. The big picture of the battle for supremacy of this planet, makes it vital that God eventually terminate the `sin-experiment’ that Satan has tried to foist on us. Read Revelation 21 about the earth made new. It is going to be paradise - 100%!

God bless for an eternity of unending bliss with our God,

Friedrich
 
I shall 1st make it a point to state that I do not in generally take the bible literally. There are alot of mysteries surrounding the issue of Lucifer and God. Anyone who would be able to reason logically would generally conclude that the Book Of Revelations is’nt meant to be taken literally. And I’m sure most of us here are rather familiar with the story of Lucifer rebelling against God and was cast out of heaven.

I would 1st like to ask several question which I hope there would be someone who can give me logically valid answers other then the issue of faith. Quoting bible passages are valid as long as its still within reasoning.

1- Heaven does not allow sin. How then did Lucifer commited the sin of pride?

2- There has to be a cause for everything? What or who, planted the seed of pride into the archangel Lucifer?

3- Who or what tempted Lucifer to act upon his desires ( assuming that angels or archangels have desire in the 1st place) to rebel against God?

4- Why did Lucifer decide to fight a losing battle against an omnipotent and an omniscient God? Could he not see the fate that awaits him for his very actions?

5- Could there be another force more devilish and evil then Satan himself that had inspired, tempted and influence Satan’s actions?

6- Could this force be as omnipotent an omniscient as God himself and equally as evil as God is good?( For someone to influence Satan and one third of the heavens angels to make a stupid decision like going to a war against God definitely would have to be someone who could actually assured Satan that there was a chance that he could win God)

7- Is God truly omnipotent? (If he was I don’t think Satan would bother fighting against him)

8- Why did’nt God just annihilated Satan and one third of the heaven`s angels that were along side Satan? Could God possibly think that there was a chance that Satan and his minions could possibly repent?

9- If God was truly omniscient, he would have foresee this Chaos that was arriving in heaven. Why did’nt he do something about it?
(other then it was all in God’s plan for these things to happen)

10- Could Lucifer, an Archangel have been a real idiot? (now this is a stupid question, but nevertheless I would still love to ask this question)
 
🙂 Hi Edwin

You are asking the million dollar questions to which man has NO answer. I suspect the first few million years in Heaven will be needed to start explaining why sin started in Lucifer’s mind.
We know it was pride (Is 14, Ez 28), and we know how stubborn proud people can be.

The only possible answer to question 9 is this: God is omnipotent, and He could EASILY have wiped Lucifer out… but GOD IS LOVE means that the rest of the unfallen universe/heaven would from then on have served God from FEAR, and not love! God’s very own nature therefore forced Him to follow the ``difficult’’ route – kick Satan out of heaven, but give him a chance to PROVE HIMSELF. We life in the resulting mess of murder, rape, violence, AIDS etc. I suspect God has let it run for long enough to ensure that NOBODY would EVER want to go this route again, once He has finally eradicated (by fire) those who cling to sin.

God bless,

Friedrich
 
Thank you brother friedrich,

Yeah, I was hoping I could get some answers although I do feel that the probability of me getting a satisfied answer is almost 0.

1 question. Do you take the bible in very literal terms?

Question number 2.

I find it interesting that you say that God is giving Satan a chance to prove himself. What is there left to prove after Satan’s defeat against God?

Question number 3.

Would you say that a person was naturally born good or bad?
Excluding the original sin factor.

And would you say that evil is an element of its own or merely a situation which arises due to the deprivation of good? Just like how darkness arise where a place is deprive of light. Would you also say that to be good requires a reason just as being bad needs a reason as well?
 
Haha Fredrich, you should be less flattered by the attention we pay Adventism. We aren’t Vatican officials; we’re mostly either former Adventists or people who have Adventist loved ones.
 
Dear brother Edwin

I was hoping not to get more involved, but why do you ask so many difficult questions?
  1. I treat my Bible like a ROAD MAP. I take everything it says literally, without question, because I know the Author knew what He was talking about! Obviously road maps also have symbols etc. which need to be taken note of. There are different symbols for eg. border posts, panoramic routes etc. These need to be interpreted according to the map maker’s CODE. Thus the Bible has symbols like… a bride=pure church/prostitute=perverted church, in prophecy waters refer to multitudes of people (Rev. 15:7) etc. Obviously the beasts are symbolic, and the Bible explains most of them to refer to political/religio-political powers.
    The secret lies in the CODE – Is. 8:20 says that if our interpretations are not according to the law and the prophets, there is no light in them. Jesus says in Mat 15:9 that we teach in vain, anything that comes from men. So let the Bible interpret itself!
Parables are stories, usually taken from real life or commonly accepted theories at the time, (even if Christ did not necessarily agree with the sentiment of the ``theory’’ himself!) that tell a central lesson, eg. the fig tree that did not bear fruit, which Christ in an enacted parable destroyed by a word. It teaches a lesson that presumptious display without the fruit to accompany it, is not acceptable to God…
  1. Yes, Satan was defeated/exposed i) physically when he was kicked out of heaven, ii)spiritually when he could not induce Christ to sin before dying as our Redeemer. All that remains is for the Judgment to still take place (See Daniel chapter 7/8) in heaven before Christ comes for the FINAL SHOWDOWN on this planet – I believe once again God is playing the TRANSPARENT GAME, where He wants to act so openly with every person’s case that nobody can ever question His fairness in destroying sin and sinners finally.
  2. Apart from Christ, NOBODY has ever been BORN on this planet with a natural inclination to do good – sin has been all pervasive, and all of us have been infected.
Finally, WHO but God can define evil? We know it is a negative force, like the lack of light in darkness, and it twists what was straight, and turns everything upside down in our world, even nature seems messed up by it. As far as the reason for being good, it is NOT from within anyone of us, but a GIFT FROM GOD, by His Holy Spirit, a miracle of light triumphing over darkness.

Hey, these are only my personal thoughts. May God enlighten your mind to find the real answers to your questions.

God Bless,

Friedrich
 
Friedrich said:
Dear brother Edwin

I was hoping not to get more involved, but why do you ask so many difficult questions?
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Why are Adventists always so reluctant to answer those ‘difficult’ questions with straight answers? Why not get more involved if you are confident in your beliefs and believe we are endangering our souls with error?
Friedrich said:
  1. I treat my Bible like a ROAD MAP. I take everything it says literally, without question, because I know the Author knew what He was talking about! Obviously road maps also have symbols etc. which need to be taken note of. There are different symbols for eg. border posts, panoramic routes etc. These need to be interpreted according to the map maker’s CODE. Thus the Bible has symbols like… a bride=pure church/prostitute=perverted church, in prophecy waters refer to multitudes of people (Rev. 15:7) etc. Obviously the beasts are symbolic, and the Bible explains most of them to refer to political/religio-political powers.
    The secret lies in the CODE – Is. 8:20 says that if our interpretations are not according to the law and the prophets, there is no light in them. Jesus says in Mat 15:9 that we teach in vain, anything that comes from men. So let the Bible interpret itself!
Click to expand...
As a former Adventist, now Catholic… I enjoy translating the Adventist ‘speak’ for people unfamiliar with their tricky language.

"I take everything it (the bible) says literally, without question… "

“---- needs to be interpreted according to the mapmaker’s CODE.”

You can’t say you take everything literally, then immediately start talking about symbols. Which is it? Obviously there are many different styles of writing and literature in the bible, some is literal, some is allegorical etc. This CODE ( capitals and emphasis yours) where is that LITERALLY in the bible? I can make the bible say literally ANYTHING, if I start assigning code meanings to certain words or phrases. Adventists use a verse here and a verse there, picking and choosing what fits their pre concieved notions to assign those CODE meanings. Thats just as valid as the Bible Code guy using computers to find all kinds of stuff in scripture. Interesting, but hardly good exegesis.

My experience with Adventism, is they consider truth to be hidden in complex prophecy codes, decipherable only to those knowing this ‘CODE’, and that this hidden code gives them the key (sabbath vs. Sunday) to the endtimes, and convinces them that their church is the only worthy remnant having the whole truth. And what is their truth? Is it the Gospel? Only if the Gospel is about sabbath keeping and dietary laws.

Why don’t Adventists take verses about not judging other people day of worship or verses that clearly say Christians are not bound by levitical dietary laws LITERALLY?
Friedrich said:
Parables are stories, usually taken from real life or commonly accepted theories at the time, (even if Christ did not necessarily agree with the sentiment of the ``theory’’ himself!) that tell a central lesson, eg. the fig tree that did not bear fruit, which Christ in an enacted parable destroyed by a word. It teaches a lesson that presumptious display without the fruit to accompany it, is not acceptable to God…
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Friedrich is being less than clear here. This has to do with the thread becase Adventists do not like the story of the rich man and Lazarus, because it clearly conflicts with their ideas about hell and the state of the dead. If it is indeed ‘only’ a parable, and not a story about real person, it is the ONLY parable that uses a given name for the main character. Parables refer to ‘the sower’, the ‘prodigal son’ etc. This story is about Lazarus, a person. Obviously parables use allegory, you use the example of a fig tree.
A fig tree used as allegory isn’t likely to lead anyone into a false doctrine. As far as Christ using a false “theory” (the SDA have to call this a theory since they believe that there is no place of eternal suffering, no immortal soul and that the dead are unconscious) that Jesus himself did not agree with, there is a flaw in their rationalization. Adventists believe that Christians, for 1800 years before the existence of an Adventist, were in error about the state of the dead and the existence of hell. They claim this is one tool the devil uses to great advantage to deceive people. If that is so, and if Adventists believe that Jesus is God (Adventists today mostly do, but many of their founders did not), how likely is it Jesus would choose to give credibility to a ‘theory’ that sets the stage for a great deception? I have to believe that Jesus was smarter than that. If you are serious about taking the bible for what it says, this parable alone disproves Adventist ideas about hell and the state of the dead.

(continued next post)
 
(continued from previous post)
Friedrich said:
  1. Yes, Satan was defeated/exposed i) physically when he was kicked out of heaven, ii)spiritually when he could not induce Christ to sin before dying as our Redeemer. All that remains is for the Judgment to still take place (See Daniel chapter 7/8) in heaven before Christ comes for the FINAL SHOWDOWN on this planet – I believe once again God is playing the TRANSPARENT GAME, where He wants to act so openly with every person’s case that nobody can ever question His fairness in destroying sin and sinners finally.
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God is playing a game? This paragraph is a reference to the SDA believe in the 'Investigative judgment". This is an idea even many SDA theologians have rejected. The SDA idea is that Jesus began a new ministry in 1844, judging people prior to His second comming. How do you arrive from the bible at the idea the final judgment begins in 1844? That secret code again.
Friedrich said:
  1. Apart from Christ, NOBODY has ever been BORN on this planet with a natural inclination to do good – sin has been all pervasive, and all of us have been infected.
Finally, WHO but God can define evil? We know it is a negative force, like the lack of light in darkness, and it twists what was straight, and turns everything upside down in our world, even nature seems messed up by it. As far as the reason for being good, it is NOT from within anyone of us, but a GIFT FROM GOD, by His Holy Spirit, a miracle of light triumphing over darkness.

Hey, these are only my personal thoughts. May God enlighten your mind to find the real answers to your questions.
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God bless you too Friedrich, why not post your points one at a time in threads, and we will be very happy to discuss them with you. There are too many former Adventists, now happily Catholic, though, for you to be able to get away with veiling your meanings with nice sounding words. If you are up to the challenge, I look forward to your posts.

MarysRoses
 
I would agree with certain things that friedrich says…however, its funny how you say you say you take the bible very literally and then you say you have to interpret and decipher certain codes or symbols yourselve. What or who do you base your interpretation from? Your own reasoning? Or wisdom from the holy spirit supposingly gave you the wisdom to decipher the symbols and meanings?

And the Catholic Church teaches that Mary was born without sin and live without sin.

And I would disagree with you when you say noone is born to do good except Jesus. Everyone is naturally good. They were born good, and they were meant to be good. However the temptation of worldly desires are bound to tempt you. Supposingly the Devil tempts you as well. Its not in the nature of human`s to walk around murdering strangers on the street. They need to be tempted or provoked into doing that. However it is very natural for another human being to risk his life to save another stranger. Human beings are essentially good assuming they do not get corrupted. Jesus, Mary, the saints, you, me and everyone else. We are essentially good. However the question arises, if we are essentially good…then where did evil originated from? The devil?
Or some force that cause the devil to have the sin of pride and rebelled against God?
 
I would like to make it clear then when I mean people are naturally Good…i mean nothing about original sin.

What I meant was people are essentially good. And they will not sin or do evil things unless tempted or provoked. People are not born into this world, do evil things and then say that it`s because people are essentially bad. Human beings have what we call rational thinking and reasoning. Ethics and morality do not originate from religion. There come from the very essense of humanity. Religion standardize the rules and laws and draw a guideline to what being truly good and perfect means.
 
To Brandon. If you look at the discussions of everyone the subject is the final reward of the righteous & wicked. I am not a preacher so if it sounds like I am preaching, I apologize. In order to do a study on anything shouldn’t we take everything that is related to get an understanding? If you look up the related subjects they belong to the whole. The nature of man, what happens when we die, & where do we go at death. I hope & pray we have these conversations to lift up our Savior & each other. I also pray that we aren’t just looking for truth, but the love of the truth. And what is truth? Our Savior said He is the truth. May we all with humility & meekness open the word with the prayer that the Spirit will lead us into all Truth. This subject of judgement & its final end is crucial in how we understand, in our finite capacity, who the Almighty is. I certainly don’t want to misrepresent the Father in my life or what I percieve Him to do or be. May we all get a blessing in our discourses. Your brother in our Savior, Larry
 
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