Seventh Day Adventist Teachings On Hell

[MarysRoses]

Hi to Larry, Mary, and all the rest,

I haven’t looked at this post for a whole 24 hours, since I have just ended a wonderful Sabbath spent in Bible Study and prayer with fellow saints, all wanting to prepare for Heaven…

Once again thank you all for being so passionate about what you believe. Don’t let the passion turn sour though!

I do NOT write on this forum to try and down anybody, or to defend SDAs or my own beliefs. I am simply a Christian, eager to tell others what God has done for me and my family.

The Bible has no secrets or secret codes. The Bible is a miraculous perfect union, from Genesis to Revelation, where God is telling us that He is going to finalize the sin problem on this planet once and for all. By comparing Old and New testament, verse by verse, we find wonderful themes running consistently throughout. Our work is to prayerfull study this map from God – the CODE is found in it, clearly, and unambiguously.

Funny, you were just trying to convince us there was no CODE.

by code, I mean the unique SDA meanings placed over the bible to arrive at the conclusions you want.

Too many questions have been asked to even try and answer.

Then why not try to stick to the subject. It has already been pointed out that Catholic teaching about hell does not necessarily mean the popular culture ideas about hell. It has also been pointed out that Adventists do not believe in an immortal soul.

Mary, I sense that you have a major problem with SDAs. Sorry about that. That is not what it is all about…

Its not a ‘problem’ to continue to point out error.

May I politely summarize my personal view:

God is not in the business of playing church-church.

Then why did he found a CHURCH, instead of passing out books?
Why did he promise the gates of hell would not prevail against it?

He is in the business of dealing with sin. He wants to eradicate sin from this earth. He used Noah to warn sinners of His imminent drastic dealing with sin during the coming flood. He chose Israel to be his ``LIGHT’’ to shine His love out to the world. They ran after other gods, so God sent them into 70 years of Babylonian captivity. This cured them of idolatry, but then they turned on their Saviour from sin–Jesus Christ, and crucified Him. God then used 12 disciples to tell the world about Him, which they did brilliantly. Since then God has used many different people/groups to witness for him. I believe God used leaders during the Dark Ages, He used Reformers to shed more light on the Bible again, and He still uses people today.

So I guess Jesus didn’t keep his promise to the Church, is what you are saying, since he has to keep finding different groups to do his work.

Seventh Day Adventists are no better or worse than any of the groups used by God previously. We just have a different message, with emphasis on God’s day of Rest from creation, and His soon return to eradicate sin finally.

A different message that is not the Gospel

If we refuse to carry this message to the world, God will choose somebody else! This means that ultimately God is not going to ask which church you belonged to, but if you and I were true to God’s requirements as given to us in the Bible (Is.8:20).

And all of this relates to the OP how? Or is this just another chance to try and proselytize.

Sister MarysRoses? I am not ashamed of what I believe, only hesitant to offend others who may believe differently. My only advice is this: Let all of us make things right with God, obey his Word, and we will be neighbours together in heaven!

See you there,

Friedrich

Again this relates to the OP how? Or is this an attempt to deflect the thread from the obvious weaknesses in the Adventist position?

MarysRoses

 

[pedja]

MarysRoses, have you got any thought on my question in post 75?

 

[MarysRoses]

Would you be willing to answer the question with a simple yes or no? My question was if you believe that humans can be more compassionate than God. Do you think that is possible?

No, humans are not more compassionate than God. But you did not address my point that simply because we are uncomfortable with something God does, from our limited human understanding, then that means God wouldn’t or couldn’t do something we would be uncomfortable with.

For example if you would witness the burning of a killer/rapist/whatever who “deserves” to die and he is been set on fire, and he is burning and burning for one hour, two hours, days, years, 150.000 years, 1 billion years… and screaming and crying and begging for mercy and so on: how long do you think you would be able to stand there and watch it? Is it possible that you would start to feel sorry for him (no matter how much he deserves to die)? Do you think it would be possible that you would rather like to set an end to this (lets say after 500 billion years of burning in flames) because you would genuinely start to feel sorry for him??

Again, you are taking your ideas and your comfort levels and assuming God thinks just like you do.

Also, you are setting up a straw man argument. You need to review Catholic teachings on hell. You are focusing on the popular culture ideas of hell. Whether or not the fire is literal, there are differences of opinion, and room for discussion.

Since you don’t seem to have read it, I’ll repost some of my earlier post:

---

There are many colorful descriptions and theories about hell, which are just that, someone’s ideas, not doctrine.

usccb.org/catechism/text/…chpt3art12.htm

1034
Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna,” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

1035
The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1056
Following the example of Christ, the Church warns the faithful of the “sad and lamentable reality of eternal death” (GCD 69), also called “hell.”

1057
Hell’s principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God in whom alone man can have the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

I think its important to note that the chief punishment is separation… not torment. Separation from God is worse punishment than any physical suffering anyway. Also, ‘eternal fire’ is not defined for us as to its particulars.

I believe what the Church teaches and asks us to believe. I want to point out I’m not asked to believe that sinners undergo a Hollywood style hell with demons and pitchforks.

The really serious error of Adventism is in teaching that we do not have an immortal soul. While we cannot describe exactly the suffering of hell it is eternal. We do have an immortal soul.

---

So pedja, instead of attacking the straw man, why not address the essential teachings, that Hell is eternal, and that we do have an immortal soul. Two essential points Adventists differ on.

MarysRoses

 

[MarysRoses]

Ok. I see what you are trying to say. But the problem is, the CODE being referred to is not an “Adventist secret” we actually broadcast it to the world. Pastor Doug, and others, refer to this CODE as secret, only because many doctrines cover their real meaning with falsehoods. The “keys” are widely available to anyone who has a Bible; so in that sense, there is no secret. The link you provided actually has a list of Bible verses depicting what the Bible uses various things as symbols for; especially in Bible prophecy. Perhaps you could tell us which one of those texts are wrong? Which example used there needs correcting?

Again, there is no code, but then of course, there is a CODE.
“Pastor Doug, and others, refer to this CODE as secret” So you admit that they do, then of course, explain why they don’t really mean what they say… enough said.

Bible Symbols, and Bible numbers, are commonly used in the Bible as symbols of a truth God wants known, something like a parable is a symbol for truths that Jesus often wanted to communicate. Please examine the “Code” in these two links and tell us which ones are wrong!!

And this relates to the OP how? Feel free to start a thread on the topic, we can dissect each one at length. The problem with assigning symbolic meanings to scripture though, is its possible to end up with anything you want using that method. Remember the book “the Bible Code” ? Interesting, but hardly sound doctrine.

I would suggest that you are the one with all the secret code. What do you call this “translating” that you do? And how does it apply to anything I said about eternal hell fire?

I translate because of the double speak. Excellent example in this post, there is ‘no code’ but then of course, there is a code.

I also translate because of the lack of clarity. You are still railing against “eternal Hell fire” You have never addressed my point that our belief in eternal punishment is not necessarily what you say it is, like others, you prefer to attack the straw man of the popular culture hell. I have reposted my earlier post above and I’m not going to do that again, you can look up there.

My objections to SDA teachings on hell, is that they contradict the two essential teachings that hell is eternal, and that we do have an immortal soul.

MarysRoses

 

[Protestant101]

When the Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses come to my door, they are glad to identify themselves. Adventists however, are less than honest, and refer to themselves as anything BUT Adventist unless very directly questioned. I know this for a fact from first hand experience. I know SDA materials and publishers and have asked people what church they were from before they knew that I knew. I got answers of "christian church " “local community church” etc. Ok, so if you ignore the fact that those are also names of actual congregations (we have 1st Christian and Faith Christian as well as Faith Community Church) those descriptions are true as far as Adventists are Christians and they have a church in the community… but the fact that most people would assume it was one of those other congregations makes it very deceptive, imho.

Other have had similar experiences.

When I was an Adventist, I was taught to avoid identifying myself as Adventist until people were considered receptive.

MarysRoses

I am sure you have had a real mixed bag of experiences regarding Adventists coming to your door.

I would hope that from this discussion you would see that it is not right to lump all Adventists into the general category of your own personal experience and philosophy.

Others have had a much different experience than you. I happened to be one of those Adventists that went door to door, for varied reasons. The way I did it was, I believe, Biblically based.

When Jesus went about “doing good” in a given community; He did sometimes make a point of asking the people to not tell anyone who it was that healed them; or whatever it was He had done. As you know, Jesus was up against a lot of prejudice from Jews, Pharisees, etc., and it was His idea to say: “Tell No Man.” (Mat.8:4, 16:20, 17:9, etc.).

When I went to someone’s door; I would sometimes say that I was an Adventist; sometimes I would not. I tried always to discern what was best to do for a given situation.

I know that you always say how that you “have personal experience” with this, but I also know, because of mine, that much of what you say is word for word from a well-known anti-Adventist web site. And I know too that people were very grateful, generally, to see me come to their door. Most times, they did not ask or even care what Church I was from; but most times they knew before I left.

Our crusades are no different. We follow the way of Jesus, as He worked in the community “doing good.” If we really are hiding something about who we are; then, it is quite a joke that so many know anyways…

Regarding “eternal hell fire;” the point about Adventists “not revealing who they REALLY are” is of paramount importance. I once went to someone’s door, expecting to do a study with the person about Bible Prophecy. It was a “first call” to this person, and given the nature of the requested study; I was planning to tell them right away what Church I was from.

When this person opened their door; I could see right away something was really wrong. They had just three days earlier lost two dear children to a car accident. They were very distressed that a) they would never see their children again; and b) that their children “might” be burning away in hell as we spoke. This was not a committed Christian that I went to see; and the concern was intense; I can assure you.

When I left that house, there were tears of joy over the Bible facts of the resurrection; and of the truth about eternal hell-fire.

Funny thing; what Church I was from never came up.

 

[adventistnomore]

MarysRoses,

You’re right about on Adventists not being immediately forthcoming with their identity on many occasions (though not most, by far). I had years of experience assisting public evangelistic crusades and doing lay bible work for my local church; I know that fact all too well.

We called it “tact,” or simply a way of avoiding prejudice. For those around us, the name had a cultic ring to it. There’s an interplay of emotions there I do not yet understand. I don’t find it inherently dishonest, though in retrospect, I wonder why we tended to be as afraid as we were. Mrs White told us to be proud of our name, and broadcast it across the world.

 

[tennisartist85]

MarysRoses,

You’re right about on Adventists not being immediately forthcoming with their identity on many occasions…

…Mrs White told us to be proud of our name, and broadcast it across the world.

It’s funny you mentioned that last part about EG White. I just finished a long, 6 month study session with a SDA pastor and at the end he gave me a copy of “The Great Controversy.” Funny thing is, you have to go four pages into to find White’s name anywhere. It’s not even on the cover.

Just think this fits in with the point made above

 

[Protestant101]

I see in these these conversations people defending their doctrines or church with alot of emotional fervor. This isn’t about Catholicism or Adventism. It is about the truth as it is in our Savior. Untill we stand up for the honor of the Father & not our feeble arguments, our discussions are in vain. I have been caught up many times trying to defend beliefs,or doctrines. Our Savior said He came here to do the will of His Father, period. Where are the arguments for the love & mercy of the Father shown in the cross. Quit trying to convince & convict. That is the work of the Spirit. I would bet the evil one is sitting back laughing at us & our bickering on doctrinal issues. Don’t get me wrong, doctrines have their place. Only after we have an abiding relationship with our Savior, May we get away from ism’s & get back to the truth as it is in our Redeemer. MaryRosas, I pray you have a close & loving relationship with your Savior no matter what communion you are in. Same goes with Protestant101 & all. Your brother in Yehushuah Messiah, Larry M.

Larry

You are way out in left field to be sure. How you deduce all you have without meeting the people concerned; is beyond me. We are trying to discuss the love of God and how it relates to the doctrine of eternal hell fire.

The Bible tells us that even Satan has a relationship with God. Just telling us all carte blanche to “have an abiding relationship” tells us nothing. Most of us on both sides of the question here do have a good relationship with God; but that is not related to the questions in this topic.

God wants us to have a **specific kind of relationship **with Him; and it is not wrong for people to discuss it passionately within the context of this subject.

IMHO

 

[Protestant101]

And this relates to the OP how? Feel free to start a thread on the topic, we can dissect each one at length. The problem with assigning symbolic meanings to scripture though, is its possible to end up with anything you want using that method. Remember the book “the Bible Code” ? Interesting, but hardly sound doctrine.

MarysRoses

It directly relates to and responds to YOUR post #70 & 72. Why didn’t you start a separate topic then for those comments?

The links I provided, are not “Adventist Code;” it is all Biblical. Since you are the one that first brought this subject up; how about proving even one of the SCRIPTURE REFERENCES wrong?

How about showing exactly where my first few posts on this topic of hell fire are “emotional” as you so enjoyed accusing me of? You still have not even tried to answer any of that.

 

[Friedrich]

Good morning, MarysRoses,

I surely am learning a lot more about your religion, and thank you for that. I take it in a nutshell you are saying: God only has one church, YOUR church, which has all the right doctrines, traditions etc. directly from God. The rest of us are heretics, doomed to burn in an everlasting hell unless we repent of our ways …? If anyone differs from you, then we are proselytizing etc. and not sharing the `gospel’… You are welcome to believe this, God bless your soul.
A brief response – 1) Church – The church at the time of Jesus’ birth was the Jewish nation. They were so way off track that they didn’t even expect/know that their Messiah was born. Who came looking for Jesus?.. GENTILES, DESPISED HEATHEN from the East, bringing precious gifts that helped Joseph and Mary to survive during their exile in Egypt.

I don’t belive that God deserts His church. The opposite is true – God’s Church strays from Him – witness Jesus weeping over Jerusalem before proclaiming: Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.'' Mat 21:43. The same is true for all churches, witnessed in Rev.3:16 about Laodicea (which we as Adventists believe has special bearing ons US today): So, because you are lukewarm-neither hot nor cold – I am about to spit you out of my mouth’’!!

1. You stated ``My objections to SDA teachings on hell, is that they contradict the two essential teachings that hell is eternal, and that we do have an immortal soul.’’
   I can not change your opinion on this matter, but your thread is about SDA TEACHINGS on Hell – are you trying to proselytize SDA’s to your position?

Re ETERNAL SOUL: i) The SOUL who sins, is the one who will DIE.'' Ezekiel 18:20 ....Yes, Souls do die! ii) God… who ALONE is immortal…’’ 1Tim 6:16…Yes, none of us is immortal!
iii) Talking about the Resurruction: Listen, I tell you a mystery:we will not all sleep, but we will al be changed -- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet... For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.'' 1 Cor 15:51-53... Yes, we will become immortal -- at the Resurrection Day! iv) For the living know that they will die, BUT THE DEAD KNOW NOTHING’’ Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 Yes, when we die, we know nothing!

So how does the Bible portray life/death:
Gen 2:7 The Lord God formed man from the DUST of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the BREATH OF LIFE, and man became a LIVING SOUL'' ... lets do som basic equasions: Dust + Breath of life (Spirit) = Living soul H2 + O = H2-0 (water) Take O out of water, and it is only hydrogen left -- water ceases to exist! Therefore: take Breath of life/spirit(Eccl. 12:7)out of Soul at death, and only the body (dust) is left -- the soul has died/is sleeping’’ as Jesus referred to Lazarus who had been dead 3 days.

This is VERY LOGICAL – imagine how unhappy Lazarus would have been if he had spent 3 happy days in Heaven, only to be rudely brought back to earth by Christ to be resurrected to face the angry pharisees who wanted to murder him!
Same for us – let’s take Martin Luther as example from your view:
He died – most likely went to hell and has been burning 400 years for his herecies against the church. In the resurrection he is raised up'' to only be sent back to everlasting hell again! or He dies -- most likely went to heaven from Protestant viewpoint, and has been floating on a cloud ever since. In the resurrection he is raised up’’ from this earth??? to be sent back to haven again??? NO LOGIC! Now read Hebrews 11:39, the great hall of heroes of faith, who will be in heaven, and are long since dead: ``These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us, so that ONLY TOGETHER WITH US WOULD THEY BE MADE PERFECT’’!
Dear MarysRoses, thanks for your patience – you asked us to stick to the topic at hand – I am only giving you a brief view on what Adventists really believe about hell and immortality. If it differs from your view, no offence taken. I am simply quoting the Bible, the Inspired Word of God, my road map to Heaven.

Have a blessed Sunday,

Friedrich

 

[Maria1212]

Good morning, MarysRoses,

I surely am learning a lot more about your religion, and thank you for that. I take it in a nutshell you are saying: God only has one church, YOUR church, which has all the right doctrines, traditions etc. directly from God. The rest of us are heretics, doomed to burn in an everlasting hell unless we repent of our ways …? If anyone differs from you, then we are proselytizing etc. and not sharing the `gospel’… You are welcome to believe this, God bless your soul.
A brief response – 1) Church – The church at the time of Jesus’ birth was the Jewish nation. They were so way off track that they didn’t even expect/know that their Messiah was born. Who came looking for Jesus?.. GENTILES, DESPISED HEATHEN from the East, bringing precious gifts that helped Joseph and Mary to survive during their exile in Egypt.

I don’t belive that God deserts His church. The opposite is true – God’s Church strays from Him – witness Jesus weeping over Jerusalem before proclaiming: Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.'' Mat 21:43. The same is true for all churches, witnessed in Rev.3:16 about Laodicea (which we as Adventists believe has special bearing ons US today): So, because you are lukewarm-neither hot nor cold – I am about to spit you out of my mouth’’!!

1. You stated ``My objections to SDA teachings on hell, is that they contradict the two essential teachings that hell is eternal, and that we do have an immortal soul.’’
   I can not change your opinion on this matter, but your thread is about SDA TEACHINGS on Hell – are you trying to proselytize SDA’s to your position?

Re ETERNAL SOUL: i) The SOUL who sins, is the one who will DIE.'' Ezekiel 18:20 ....Yes, Souls do die! ii) God… who ALONE is immortal…’’ 1Tim 6:16…Yes, none of us is immortal!
iii) Talking about the Resurruction: Listen, I tell you a mystery:we will not all sleep, but we will al be changed -- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet... For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.'' 1 Cor 15:51-53... Yes, we will become immortal -- at the Resurrection Day! iv) For the living know that they will die, BUT THE DEAD KNOW NOTHING’’ Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 Yes, when we die, we know nothing!

So how does the Bible portray life/death:
Gen 2:7 The Lord God formed man from the DUST of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the BREATH OF LIFE, and man became a LIVING SOUL'' ... lets do som basic equasions: Dust + Breath of life (Spirit) = Living soul H2 + O = H2-0 (water) Take O out of water, and it is only hydrogen left -- water ceases to exist! Therefore: take Breath of life/spirit(Eccl. 12:7)out of Soul at death, and only the body (dust) is left -- the soul has died/is sleeping’’ as Jesus referred to Lazarus who had been dead 3 days.

This is VERY LOGICAL – imagine how unhappy Lazarus would have been if he had spent 3 happy days in Heaven, only to be rudely brought back to earth by Christ to be resurrected to face the angry pharisees who wanted to murder him!
Same for us – let’s take Martin Luther as example from your view:
He died – most likely went to hell and has been burning 400 years for his herecies against the church. In the resurrection he is raised up'' to only be sent back to everlasting hell again! or He dies -- most likely went to heaven from Protestant viewpoint, and has been floating on a cloud ever since. In the resurrection he is raised up’’ from this earth??? to be sent back to haven again??? NO LOGIC! Now read Hebrews 11:39, the great hall of heroes of faith, who will be in heaven, and are long since dead: ``These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us, so that ONLY TOGETHER WITH US WOULD THEY BE MADE PERFECT’’!
Dear MarysRoses, thanks for your patience – you asked us to stick to the topic at hand – I am only giving you a brief view on what Adventists really believe about hell and immortality. If it differs from your view, no offence taken. I am simply quoting the Bible, the Inspired Word of God, my road map to Heaven.

Have a blessed Sunday,

Friedrich

Dear Friedich,

After reading your interpretation of Scripture, it made me wonder, by what authority do you believe your interpretation to be correct?

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[Maria1212]

I would also be interested to hear from Catholics, or from other Protestants on this board, what do you think of the following types of quotes, as in this one by Jonathan Edwards, taken from his sermon: “Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God.”

I noticed that a poster above mentioned that they thought it made God very unjust if He really did “annihilate” people in the end, yet, I am one who has suffered severe burns over large tracts of my body, (mostly 3rd degree) and I know personally what it feels like to be literally fried to a crisp…I cannot imagine a God who would do such a thing to anyone for all of eternity! How does that make Him just?

I have more to say to other points above; but I will have to be away for a bit…

Dear Protestant 101,

When I commented that some of your posts used emotion to try to convince the reader of the validity of your position, I was referring to posts such as the above. In high school and college I took classes in critical thinking, logic, and debate. There was a term called “emotional fallacy” which means that you use emotion, or appeals to emotion to convince or persuade someone to do something or think something. In the above case, it seems you are using emotion to argue that a loving and merciful God would not allow someone to suffer in hell for eternity.

When I was a small child, I severely burned my hand. My sister`s husband also got severely burned all over his back. The agony that burn vicitims feel is horrible, and I am very sorry you had to suffer this. But, this pain is irrelevant to your argument above, in the sense that you are appealing to our emotions, but the fact that burns are indeed painful has nothing to do with whether hell is eternal or not. It is irrelevant.

As a reminder for those who might not know, Catholics view hell as meaning separation from God, which is the worst kind of pain. But people who end up in hell, have chosen to be separated from God by turning their backs on him, and on His will.

I hope I have clearly explained what I meant by emotion. I did not mean that you were emotional, only that you were using emotion as a tool so to speak, to convince us of your argument. I know a lot of evangelists of all religions do this, but it does not prove or disprove anything.

I would to also compliment you Protestant 101. Because you are one of the few Adventists who have “hung around” CAF and not given up. I look forward to continuing our discussions. I will not be able to post much for the next couple of weeks, but look forward to catching up and continuing our dialogue.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[Maria1212]

MarysRoses,

You’re right about on Adventists not being immediately forthcoming with their identity on many occasions (though not most, by far). I had years of experience assisting public evangelistic crusades and doing lay bible work for my local church; I know that fact all too well.

We called it “tact,” or simply a way of avoiding prejudice. For those around us, the name had a cultic ring to it. There’s an interplay of emotions there I do not yet understand. I don’t find it inherently dishonest, though in retrospect, I wonder why we tended to be as afraid as we were. Mrs White told us to be proud of our name, and broadcast it across the world.

I understand the desire to want to be able to share the Gospel, without having someone “turned off” by preconceived notions regarding ones religion. But I do think it is dishonest to conceal ones affiliation when evangelizing. I know Adventists do not mean any harm, and do not consider it deceit, but I still consider it dishonest. I know their intent is not bad, but I still disagree with this.

We cannot group all Adventists together. But in the United States, it is common for the Seventh Day Adventist Church to initially conceal their identity when it comes to evangelizing, publishing etc. While their intent might not be bad, I still disagree with it.

I hope this helps our Adventist friends understand why for some non-Adventists, their initial encounter with Adventists might not have left a favorable impression.

While I disagree with Adventist doctrine and teachings, I think most people would agree that our Adventist brothers and sisters, are very warm and kind. I believe, along with many others, that Adventists are sincere and genuine in their faith, but misguided. This is why people such as myself, and MarysRoses, and Adventistnomore spend so much time on these forums. Not because we have a “problem with Adventists” but because we want to correct what we believe to be false teachings.

This is a Catholic forum, so it should be obvious that we will defend our faith against false teachings. We do not want to see the Word of God twisted, contorted, or taken out of context.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[Protestant101]

I
We cannot group all Adventists together. But in the United States, it is common for the Seventh Day Adventist Church to initially conceal their identity when it comes to evangelizing, publishing etc. While their intent might not be bad, I still disagree with it.

I hope this helps our Adventist friends understand why for some non-Adventists, their initial encounter with Adventists might not have left a favorable impression.

While I disagree with Adventist doctrine and teachings, I think most people would agree that our Adventist brothers and sisters, are very warm and kind. I believe, along with many others, that Adventists are sincere and genuine in their faith, but misguided. This is why people such as myself, and MarysRoses, and Adventistnomore spend so much time on these forums. Not because we have a “problem with Adventists” but because we want to correct what we believe to be false teachings.

This is a Catholic forum, so it should be obvious that we will defend our faith against false teachings. We do not want to see the Word of God twisted, contorted, or taken out of context.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

Actually; I fully agree with this post you made re your motives here, so this is not a problem for me. I have wondered sometimes how welcome we Protestants really are on this forum; but then I just have to think how I might feel and respond should a bunch of Catholics “raid” a Protestant forum I was a member of.

Hopefully, you don’t see most of us as “raiding” your forum either; our motives are very similar to your’s.

I am glad that you explained your point re me using “emotions;” and that actually opens up another very interesting area for study, regarding this or any other subject.

I personally do not see it as intrinsically “wrong” to respond with emotions or personal experience in trying to decipher doctrinal truths. Granted, the “emotion” used may not always be accurate; but God wants us to come to Him as we are; He wants His Word to hit us where we are at. His Word is capable of addressing all of our emotions. There are several Catholic members of this board who share plenty of “emotion” when “showing” why they left the Adventist Church; so you are right, anecdotal testimonies cannot always be trusted to prove doctrine; but they can assist in helping to illustrate some points.

The greatest question of “the great controversy” between good and evil is reflected upon in scripture where it says that “He might be just and the Justifier to all them which believe in Jesus.” It is normal for people to wonder, from their own experience, if God actually is just; however, it is valuable also to do as you have done and question the accuracy of the emotion in accurately portraying the doctrine currently under study. Obviously; my personal experience cannot prove my understanding of eternal hell fire. All it does is give an example of how many people would see this question because of similar or worse experience they have had. People have to know in their hearts that God is both just and the Justifier; and how can they do it but from their own experiences, and applying the doctrinal principles thereof to answer their nagging questions and doubts that have come from their experience in life?

I find it disappointing that you are feeling it necessary to bring in the integrity or honesty of Adventists into this subject of eternal hell fire; as well as tending to question “by what authority” do some of us bring forth our ideas here. Those are also separate topics; and my disappointment lies in the fact that Friedrick, and myself have presented a number of scriptural points which have not been addressed and proven wrong.

You used to be an Adventist; you know where our authority comes from, or where we say it comes from; but within this topic; I would be really interested in seeing detailed discussions about the scriptural points we have been making. I have presented some of my understandings of eternal hell fire which I feel was mostly dismissed with a charge of “emotionalism;” when in fact it is 90% scripture, and only the first small paragraph makes mention of my burns, and how that made me see this doctrine. Can the dead speak to us is a question I have never seen refuted affirmatively by scripture. If you can do it here; then I am all ears.

Anyways; I am glad that we can speak our minds and address our concerns and still be friends. Perhaps this would explain a bit of why I am still on this forum. I know that if a little irritation occurs, it won’t stay that way for long. Not a bad lesson to be learned by Catholics or Protestants - even if we don’t always stay on topic!!

 

[MarysRoses]

The rest of us are heretics, doomed to burn in an everlasting hell unless we repent of our ways …?

You would do well to read the entire thread, and respond to what has been said, rather than your ideas of what you think we are saying. The chief suffering of hell is separation. Yet you cling to the idea of eternal burning as the only definition of an eternal hell.
It is also true that the Catholic Church has never declared anyone to be in hell. Not Judas. Not Martin Luther. No one. That does not mean that hell is empty, but that only God knows what is in someone’s heart.

I am posting my response to your comments about the Church in a new thread.

1. You stated ``My objections to SDA teachings on hell, is that they contradict the two essential teachings that hell is eternal, and that we do have an immortal soul.’’
   I can not change your opinion on this matter, but your thread is about SDA TEACHINGS on Hell – are you trying to proselytize SDA’s to your position?

This is a Catholic discussion board. Anyone is welcome and encouraged to post here, but you have to expect that we will critique the posts and defend our position.

Re ETERNAL SOUL: i) The SOUL who sins, is the one who will DIE.'' Ezekiel 18:20 ....Yes, Souls do die! ii) God… who ALONE is immortal…’’ 1Tim 6:16…Yes, none of us is immortal!
iii) Talking about the Resurruction: Listen, I tell you a mystery:we will not all sleep, but we will al be changed -- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet... For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.'' 1 Cor 15:51-53... Yes, we will become immortal -- at the Resurrection Day! iv) For the living know that they will die, BUT THE DEAD KNOW NOTHING’’ Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 Yes, when we die, we know nothing!

four verses, from very different contexts. They aren’t even about the same kind of transitions. The resurrection is when Jesus comes again. Those who spoke of death in the Old Testament, did not know about the resurrection, and were not referring to it. There was a deep split in thought among the Jewish people at the time of Jesus. Sadducees, largely because of the OT verses you are quoting, did not believe in the resurrection. The pharisee’s did. Nothing about the state of the dead is a simple study. Any comprehensive understanding ALSO has to account for the following verses:

As far as Ecclesiastes: Any interpretation of the verse you quoted, must also take into account this verse:

(Eccl 12:5 NASB) Furthermore, men are afraid of a high place and of terrors on the road; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags himself along, and the caperberry is ineffective. For man goes to his eternal home while mourners go about in the street.

Is the grave your eternal home? Or did the spirit return to its eternal home, being a person, not just breath. A more likely interpretation of your verse, is that the dead have no interest anymore in the cares of this world.

" Ezekiel 18:20 …Yes, Souls do die!" What is your meaning of soul here? A living person as you define soul in genesis? Yes we die becuase we sin. No one is disputing that. Or do you mean the spirit, as in the immortal soul dies? If so, I thought you believed that the spirit is only breath? If you mean the soul of a person, like we do, then hell is often refered to as eternal death and this verse does nothing to challenge our belief.

``God… who ALONE is immortal…’’ 1Tim 6:16

Only God possesses life. Only God is inherently immortal. But he shares that with us… again, context:

13 In the sight of God, who gives life to everything… 1Tim 6:13

everything… not just believers. And remember we are made in his image, and God is spirit. Or did you think that referred to the shape of our body? If this verse is taken as absolute, then the gift we are given couldn’t be eternal, if God ALONE is immortal in a literal absolute sense. But he created us in his image and gave us his life.

The verses about the resurrection are referring to the bodily resurrection. Corruptible bodies will put on incorruptibility. I think the point of the thread is the existence of an immortal soul… not the resurrection. If you want to discuss that further I’ll start another thread.

(continued next post)

 

[MarysRoses]

(Cont. from previous post)

So how does the Bible portray life/death:
Gen 2:7 ``The Lord God formed man from the DUST of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the BREATH OF LIFE, and man became a LIVING SOUL’’ … lets do som basic equasions:
Dust + Breath of life (Spirit) = Living soul
H2 + O = H2-0 (water)
Take O out of water, and it is only hydrogen left – water ceases to exist!

Therefore: take Breath of life/spirit(Eccl. 12:7)out of Soul at death, and only the body (dust) is left – the soul has died/is ``sleeping’’ as Jesus referred to Lazarus who had been dead 3 days.

If only body + breath = soul What about this verse:

(Rev 6:9 NASB) And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
(Rev 6:10 NASB) and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

How about Lazarus? Was he unconscious? I know ADventists say this is ‘only’ a parable, but if so, its the only one where a person is refered to by name. It would also contain a theological untruth. (according to Adventist doctrine.)

This is VERY LOGICAL – imagine how unhappy Lazarus would have been if he had spent 3 happy days in Heaven, only to be rudely brought back to earth by Christ to be resurrected to face the angry pharisees who wanted to murder him!

Logical to you maybe. Its also quite possible that Lazarus was happy to serve God in anyway asked of him. Heaven was delayed for him, not taken away.

Same for us – let’s take Martin Luther as example from your view:
He died – most likely went to hell and has been burning 400 years for his herecies against the church. In the resurrection he is raised up'' to only be sent back to everlasting hell again! or He dies -- most likely went to heaven from Protestant viewpoint, and has been floating on a cloud ever since. In the resurrection he is raised up’’ from this earth??? to be sent back to haven again??? NO LOGIC!

Again, all pop culture imagery. “floating on a cloud” You might as well be invoking demons and pitchforks. Would you please read whats been posted? No one has claimed that any specific person is in hell. While some undoubtedly are, only God knows.

Scripture does refer to a final Judgment. Thats scripture, whether its logical or not to you. The resurrection of the just is when we will put on incorruptible bodies. That says nothing about the state of our spirits in the meantime.

Now read Hebrews 11:39, the great hall of heroes of faith, who will be in heaven, and are long since dead: ``These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us, so that ONLY TOGETHER WITH US WOULD THEY BE MADE PERFECT’’!

Yes, we will all get our incorruptible bodies at the same time.
Again, thats not a comment on the state of their spirits.

Dear MarysRoses, thanks for your patience – you asked us to stick to the topic at hand – I am only giving you a brief view on what Adventists really believe about hell and immortality. If it differs from your view, no offence taken. I am simply quoting the Bible, the Inspired Word of God, my road map to Heaven.

Have a blessed Sunday,

Friedrich

Do yourself a favor, and try to read that bible without filtering it though what you think you know. You might also ask yourself where it came from, and what Church devoted tremendous resources of scholarship, time and materials, and the lifetimes of thousands of diligent monks, hand copying it and preserving it so that you could have it today.

MarysRoses

 

[larry_m]

To IMHO. Unfortunately you have proven my piont. Your answer was, as I read it, & forgive me if I am wrong, without compassion. You stated it wasn’t wrong for people to discuss subjects with passion. I suggest, if I may, to have compassion for all who are searching for truth. We all should read 1 Cor.13 every morning. Is the doctrine of hell a salvation issue? My point, IMHO, was not to judge wrongly. You will say I am judging by me saying there are things being said in these threads that attack people, their church, or belief system. I truly try to take the beam out of my eye before taking the splinter out of others. My point being, my brothers & sisters, is what are our motives in these conversations? To protect our respective churches & their doctrines, or to bring honor to the Father, His Son. & the Eternal Spirit? I hope & pray you keep me in your prayers for the Savior to live His life in & through me, & to esteem all others above myself, & to respect all men, May the Almighty bless us all with a better understanding of His love for us in the light of the cross. Your friend & brother in our bSavior, Larry M.

 

[Protestant101]

To IMHO. Unfortunately you have proven my piont. Your answer was, as I read it, & forgive me if I am wrong, without compassion. You stated it wasn’t wrong for people to discuss subjects with passion. I suggest, if I may, to have compassion for all who are searching for truth. We all should read 1 Cor.13 every morning. Is the doctrine of hell a salvation issue? My point, IMHO, was not to judge wrongly. You will say I am judging by me saying there are things being said in these threads that attack people, their church, or belief system. I truly try to take the beam out of my eye before taking the splinter out of others. My point being, my brothers & sisters, is what are our motives in these conversations? To protect our respective churches & their doctrines, or to bring honor to the Father, His Son. & the Eternal Spirit? I hope & pray you keep me in your prayers for the Savior to live His life in & through me, & to esteem all others above myself, & to respect all men, May the Almighty bless us all with a better understanding of His love for us in the light of the cross. Your friend & brother in our bSavior, Larry M.

Larry; you have burst upon this forum and members, choosing to directly address participants and what you say and perceive as “their character.” You are a false friend with a lot of fancy religious talk. You talk about bringing honor to the Father; and ask me to pray for you; you ask me not to say anything here unless it is “peaceful” and “compassionate” according to your idea of it, and you leave no room for anyone to investigate what is right. There isn’t one doctrine that, correctly understood, does not have Christ and Him crucified as the central theme. Your crusade about “don’t get doctrinal” is the single-most reason that people are led astray; and to talk about our motives as you do here without taking any trouble to get to know us and why we are talking as we do is totally devoid of the “compassion” that you so loftily wave in our faces.

I don’t usually speak like this to people online, but your approach is rank falsehood, and insulting, under the guise of “love.” Is everything Jesus did “compassionate” BY YOUR DEFINITION HERE? Our Lord sometimes chose to call people certain names, that we would all class as insults; but He called them what they were when it was appropriate. I can just see you standing beside Jesus with your Bible, pointing to 1 Cor.13 when he is calling people “whited sepulchres.” Mat 23:27.

Please address the subject of this thread if you want any further replies from me. Please tell us with Bible references just where is the “compassion” in the doctrine of eternal hell fire?

 

[MarysRoses]

You used to be an Adventist; you know where our authority comes from, or where we say it comes from; but within this topic; I would be really interested in seeing detailed discussions about the scriptural points we have been making. I have presented some of my understandings of eternal hell fire which I feel was mostly dismissed with a charge of “emotionalism;” when in fact it is 90% scripture, and only the first small paragraph makes mention of my burns, and how that made me see this doctrine.

People have responded on this thread:

Brandon resonded:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2352898&postcount=17

More on this post: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2365413&postcount=23

More here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/report.php?p=2365418

And yet more:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2365932&postcount=25

I could continue to list them, but its obvious, we have responded, with thoughtful posts. You also continue to talk about literal burning as if that were indeed what the Catholic Church teaches as the only fact about hell. The only reason I can think that Adventists like to focus on literal burning is it makes an emotionally charged image that is easier to argue against.

Can the dead speak to us is a question I have never seen refuted affirmatively by scripture. If you can do it here; then I am all ears.

The clearest one I can think of is this from 1 Samuel 28.
Adventists teach that the spirit is a demon, not Samuel, but what does the bible say?

13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a spirit [a] coming up out of the ground.”

14 “What does he look like?” he asked.
“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”
“I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”

16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18

Saul knew that it was Samuel… The bible narrator does not correct his impression so its unlikely he was mistaken. The bible then goes on to say: **“Samuel said…” ** Not “a demonic spirit masquerading as Samuel…” Not “the evil spirit said…” Not even
“the spirit” . The Bible text affirms that this is indeed Samuel.

Not only does the bible text treat this shade as the person Samuel, not an imposter, Samuel goes on to make a new prophecy:

19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."

20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel’s words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and night.

Saul was filled with fear… why? "because of Samuel’s words."

Consulting the witch was a great sin. Saul suffered the consequences, but nowhere is there any indication in scripture that this spirit was anything other than the prophet Samuel.

That is one concrete example, strictly from scripture, of the dead communicating with the living.

MarysRoses

 

[larry_m]

Are Protestant 101 & Imho the same person?. If so I am confused in who wrote me. My main concern with these discussions was the name calling by certain individuals. I do not believe in an eternally burning hell.As far as being called an imposter in my plea for respect in our discussions, please be careful in your assessment. I have been as truthful as can be & sincere in my reaching out to my brothers & sisters in this thread. Do you honestly believe that our Savior, in His most straight forward speech to the Pharisees & others, showing them their true situation & heart, that He didn’t have infinite compassion in His voice? Or did He have venom & hatred for whom He spoke to? I agree with you that all subects should be in the light of the cross. I am still waiting for some scripture to my question, if our Savior truly did pay for our sins, is He still burning in an eternaly burning hell for our sins? Once again to whomever is getting the wrong idea of my motives, they are upright & sincere. What part of my plea for compassion for others & their beliefs don’t you understand? It doesn’t mean to let error rain supreme, or heresy to abound. We are not wrestling with flesh & blood, but principalities & powers etc… Once again, if I have offended anyone, I ask for forgivness. I always appreciate constructive criticism, but let us all be careful of character assasination. These are not empty words & platitudes to anyone. Just one person reaching out to others in search of truth & fellowship with others in all faiths. Larry M.