Seventh Day Adventist Teachings On Hell

[Protestant101]

People have responded on this thread:

Brandon resonded:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2352898&postcount=17

More on this post: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2365413&postcount=23

More here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/report.php?p=2365418

And yet more:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2365932&postcount=25

I could continue to list them, but its obvious, we have responded, with thoughtful posts.

In all of the links you provided, the responses were just quick opinions given, without detailed Biblical explanations of anything I wrote except for one thing. The idea of no hell fire till judgment was briefly replied to with little reference to the Bible, only a grand pronouncement by SDA2RC about “Adventists this and Adventists that.”

I will respond to Biblical points taken in refutation of my points, but 90% of what I pointed out in the first few posts has still not been addressed.

On that note; I will be glad to discuss 1 Sam.28 and how it impacts the idea of eternal hell fire when I can get to the forum again. I will be gone for a bit though. Likely for a week…

Till then, may God bless!

 

[SDA2RC]

I will respond to Biblical points taken in refutation of my points, but 90% of what I pointed out in the first few posts has still not been addressed.

Protestant,
I find the above statement very strange… I went back through your first several posts, and this is what I found.

Protestant101 said in post 16, the first substantial post by you on this subject:

Strangely enough, Christ has been charged by many religious leaders with teaching a falsehood on this subject. They have accused Him of teaching that an immortal soul flies away from the body at death to either heaven or hell. This is not what Jesus taught at all. He never gave the least intimation that some mysterious disembodied soul separates from the body at the time of death. And surely He did not ever give the impression that the wicked suffer an eternal torment as soon as they die.

Please see post #23 where this has been discussed.

You said in post 16: The question to be asked about this example of “eternal fire” is this: Are Sodom and Gomorrha still burning today?

Please see post # 17 where this was answered

You say in post 17 & 18 that:

“Using Thayer’s Greek Definitions; we see that the word “suffering” as used in Jude 1:7 can have two possible meanings. One is “to hold under, to put under, or place underneath.” The second, and more likely intention of the author is “metaphorically to sustain, undergo; to suffer punishment.””

Please see post #23 where this was answered

“The unsaved do not go to any place of punishment as soon as they die, but are reserved in the grave until the day of judgment to be punished. Christ explicitly taught this truth in the well-known parable of the wheat and the tares.”.

Please see post #23 where this was answered

Since the judgment also takes place after Christ comes we can see how impossible it would be for anyone to be punished before that time. Justice demands that a person be brought into judgment before being punished….Surely God would not be guilty of such a farce.

Please see post #24 where this was answered

“f we let the Bible mean what it says, there can be no doubt on this point. The wicked are “reserved” until when? Until the “day of judgment.” To be what? “To be punished”! This means they cannot be punished before that judgment day. Does the Bible tell where they are reserved until then?”

Please see post #24 where this was answered

You go on to mention that the dead are in the grave, we agree, the bodies of our dead are in the grave, the spirit returns to God who gave it for judgment. We find in Eccl. That the dead to to the place of their eternal reward while the mourners are still in the street.

(Eccl 12:5 NASB) Furthermore, men are afraid of a high place and of terrors on the road; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags himself along, and the caperberry is ineffective. For man goes to his eternal home while mourners go about in the street.

**How can this be if the grave is where he stays, is there no hope for resurrection, are you saying that man stays in the grave eternally… that this is his eternal home? **

(Eccl 12:6 NASB) Remember Him before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed;
(Eccl 12:7 NASB) then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Ahhh… this is how… the spirit returns to God. If the spirit returns to God, then what is in the grave? The body! Wow… so simple even a child can understand.

This was also discussed in Post#24

So… I quoted several of the main idea’s of paragraphs in your first several posts, and just the parts that I have responded to. I am curious what 90% did we miss?

 

[SDA2RC]

I never ever heard of such a thing and I have never experienced that Adventists were trying to hide their identity when they were talking to people.

You clearly have a huge personal problem with the SDA, that is so evident because you cant stop talking about them. However, I think you should not generalize and portray your personal experiences as a issue common to all Adventists.

Anyway, one question concerning everlasting hell: do you believe that human beings can be more compassionate than God himself?

LOL… you have never heard of this? She was spot on in her assessment of the SDA’s attempt to hide their identity. Just go to www.amazingfacts.com, and try to find out what religion this Adventist ministry actually is… their website somehow forgets to mention that they are Seventh-day Adventists.

 

[lak611]

LOL… you have never heard of this? She was spot on in her assessment of the SDA’s attempt to hide their identity. Just go to www.amazingfacts.com, and try to find out what religion this Adventist ministry actually is… their website somehow forgets to mention that they are Seventh-day Adventists.

Your link does not work.

 

[SDA2RC]

I see in these these conversations people defending their doctrines or church with alot of emotional fervor. This isn’t about Catholicism or Adventism. It is about the truth as it is in our Savior.

Larry, it is about Adventism and Catholicism, you are trying to oversimplify a very complex problem. Scripture tells us that Christ founded a church. This is truth. Scripture tells us that the church is the “pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim 3:15). Therefore you cannot separate the truth from the Church which is the body of Christ.

Untill we stand up for the honor of the Father & not our feeble arguments, our discussions are in vain.

Larry, we honor the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit by obeying the command to “(Titus 2:15 NASB) These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.”

I have been caught up many times trying to defend beliefs,or doctrines. Our Savior said He came here to do the will of His Father, period.

Good for you… you are commanded to be ready in and out of season to give an reason for your belief, to teach, rebuke and correct. Christ did come to do the will of His Father, and he said “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

IF we are to worship God in truth, and the Church is the foundation and pillar of truth, then we must identify the Church which was founded by Christ nearly 2000 years ago. This is why we explain, re-explain, defend, and preach our convictions.

Where are the arguments for the love & mercy of the Father shown in the cross.

On the threads dealing with the mercy of God. This thread is dealing with the Adventist teachings on Hell.

Quit trying to convince & convict. That is the work of the Spirit.

The Spirit works through the Body of Christ, the Church and it’s members. Notice that the Spirit prompted Philip to teach the Ethiopian Eunach. Can you imagine if Philip would have told the Spirit, “no… thats your job.” The spirit uses people to further God’s cause.

(Acts 8:29 NASB) And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot.”
(Acts 8:30 NASB) And when Philip had run up, he heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
(Acts 8:31 NASB) And he said, “**Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?” **And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

I would bet the evil one is sitting back laughing at us & our bickering on doctrinal issues. Don’t get me wrong, doctrines have their place.

Why? If anything “the evil one” is probably laughing about people who say… don’t worry about or discuss doctrinal issues. After all, Christ told us to worship God in truth. We learn truth through discussion. This very forum played a part of my conversion, debate is healthy and useful.

 

[SDA2RC]

Your link does not work.

See… told you you can’t find a reference to Adventism on there… LOL j/k

Here is the correct link… hopefully. amazingfacts.org/

 

[lak611]

See… told you you can’t find a reference to Adventism on there… LOL j/k

Here is the correct link… hopefully. amazingfacts.org/

This link does work. You are correct. There is no mention of the denomination of the ministry.

 

[SDA2RC]

MarysRoses,

You’re right about on Adventists not being immediately forthcoming with their identity on many occasions (though not most, by far). I had years of experience assisting public evangelistic crusades and doing lay bible work for my local church; I know that fact all too well.

We called it “tact,” or simply a way of avoiding prejudice. For those around us, the name had a cultic ring to it. There’s an interplay of emotions there I do not yet understand. I don’t find it inherently dishonest, though in retrospect, I wonder why we tended to be as afraid as we were. Mrs White told us to be proud of our name, and broadcast it across the world.

It is not dishonesty unless you are asked and still do not give an direct answer. I am not sure what you are basing your belief that on Most occasions Adventists identify themselves up front. The popular media outreach programs, stop smoking seminars, many SDA Hosptials, prophecy/evangelistic seminars, and literature evangelists, all generally do not identify themselves up front, nor do they often put the name of the Church on their printed materials.

Contrast this with the LDS Church where the missionaries wear name tags and all their literature is identified clearly on the binding of the book, or on the back page of the pamphlet. If you think the SDA Church as an image problem of being cultic, the LDS Church has it 10 times worse, and they still don’t resort to hiding who they are.

In our society identity is important… when you call a business the first thing they do is answer the phone and identify the business and often the name of the employee. When you make a sales call to another company, you always identify yourself up front. Anyone who feels that they need to conceal their identity is often hiding something or should be treated with suspicion. Is it a lie? Maybe not initially, but nor is it above board.

 

[SDA2RC]

This link does work. You are correct. There is no mention of the denomination of the ministry.

Yea… it kind of reminds me of the old used car salesman image… try to hook you and sink you before you have all the information to make a decision. “Don’t worry about who we are, just listen to what we say”… LOL

Protestant101 mentioned that Jesus told his followers at one point not to declare in who’s name they came, I doubt Jesus told Adventists to conceal their identity? Satan however often conceals his real identity. After all, if would have appeared in the Garden of Eden as a demon cast out of heaven, Eve would have been terribly biased and probably not listened to him. Much the same way the Adventists are afraid people will not listen to them. Things that make you go… hmmmm…

 

[SDA2RC]

Larry

You are way out in left field to be sure. How you deduce all you have without meeting the people concerned; is beyond me. We are trying to discuss the love of God and how it relates to the doctrine of eternal hell fire.

The Bible tells us that even Satan has a relationship with God. Just telling us all carte blanche to “have an abiding relationship” tells us nothing. Most of us on both sides of the question here do have a good relationship with God; but that is not related to the questions in this topic.

God wants us to have a **specific kind of relationship **with Him; and it is not wrong for people to discuss it passionately within the context of this subject.

IMHO

I agree Protestant101… well said

 

[SDA2RC]

Are Protestant 101 & Imho the same person?. If so I am confused in who wrote me. My main concern with these discussions was the name calling by certain individuals.

Why is it your concern? We welcome you, and want you to stay, but at the same time we somewhat get to know each others personalities and approaches throughout time. The internet is a place for thick skin… we are here, spending hours online because we care about each other, even if we disagree. Adults often talk bluntly. The internet is not a medium that allows for the nuances of compassion and gentleness in most communications if they are to be written concisely and quickly as most are written on forums like this.

I am still waiting for some scripture to my question, if our Savior truly did pay for our sins, is He still burning in an eternaly burning hell for our sins?

Your question is based on an assumption that we don’t hold, hence your use of “still”. It is like asking “Do you still beat your wife every day?” The assumption is that you are beating your wife in the first place. If you would like to remove the assumption and re-ask the question we will be happy to answer.

 

[adventistnomore]

I am not sure what you are basing your belief that on Most occasions Adventists identify themselves up front.

LOL, Brandon… I said: “Adventists [aren’t] immediately forthcoming with their identity on many occasions (though not most, by far).” That’s not the same as saying they identify themselves as Advetist up front most of the time.

I didn’t want to say that aren’t upfront “most” of the time because it is very common for Adventist evangelistic events to be held at Adventist churches (a fact duly noted in the appropriate invite brochures).

Anyways, you rock, lol.

 

[larry_m]

To Brandon & whomever have read my statements. I will try to make my position clearer. My point is, we, & I put myself in this group, need to have the Spirit of our Savior in all of our discussions. Once again, even if we have all truth, it is but sounding brass without love. That means compassion for one another. Not passion. I believe we should discuss spiritual things, no matter what communion we belong to. I believe in doctrines, but above all the doctrine of our Savior & how He presented truth in love for those He presented it to. Should we be jealous for our Savior & how He is presented, or defend Catholocism & Adventism? According to Protestant 101 I leave no room for doctrinal discussions. Is it so hard to understand the plea I am making> Be civil in our discussions. I am trying to stand up for our Savior, brothers & sisters in these discussions, only in the right attitude. If it is too hard to understand my motives in what I have stated, sorry. We all need to remember in how we treat & talk to others, we are doing the same to our Redeemer. I stand for sound doctrine, biblically based. On the doctrine of hell, can anyone give me scripture about, is our Savior, Who paid for our sins, still burning in eternal hellfire? To Protestant 101, unless you are omniscient & can read the heart & intents of a person, which is the work of the great Judge in heaven, be more selective in your statements of where a person is coming from. Maybe the person who stated in this thread is right. Protestants & Catholics have a great divide in our respactive beliefs & it may be in vain to discuss doctrinal issues. It saddens me if this is true . I have too many friends in alot of different communions. It is our job to plant the seed not to convict or convince. That is the job of the Eternal Spirit, Brandon. I can get down with the best of them on doctrinal issues. But to what avail if The Spirit of my Savior isn’t in the attitude expressed in words. Thankyou all for your feed back. It certainly makes me look at my motives. May you all be blessed in your search for truth. Larry M.

 

[larry_m]

Brandon. Do you belirve Our Savior paid for our sins? If you do, & you belive in an eternaly burning hell, where the wages of sin is paid, then is the Redeemer in that lake of fire still paying for our sin. Once again, please don’t give me yor answer without scripture. Thankyou, Larry M.

 

[amills]

Brandon. Do you belirve Our Savior paid for our sins? If you do, & you belive in an eternaly burning hell, where the wages of sin is paid, then is the Redeemer in that lake of fire still paying for our sin. Once again, please don’t give me yor answer without scripture. Thankyou, Larry M.

Larry - why are you requesting that Brandon must use scripture to answer your question? That seems to be very limiting being that Our Lord and Saviour certainly answered questions without Scripture. So if we are to follow His lead, it would make sense to use reason to answer your questions just as Jesus did so many times when Pharasees put forth questions.

 

[SDA2RC]

To Brandon & whomever have read my statements. I will try to make my position clearer. My point is, we, & I put myself in this group, need to have the Spirit of our Savior in all of our discussions.

Who says we don’t? This is my concern, you keep saying that in your e-mails, but I suppose you are the one who is deciding what constitutes that “Spirit”. No one else on the board seems to be upset or concerned.

Once again, even if we have all truth, it is but sounding brass without love. That means compassion for one another. Not passion. I believe we should discuss spiritual things, no matter what communion we belong to. I believe in doctrines, but above all the doctrine of our Savior & how He presented truth in love for those He presented it to.

No one is arguing that we need love, it is how your choosing to apply it to everyone that bothers me. It seems as though you have decided that we don’t have love, as you see it, and therefore keep telling us this.

 

[SDA2RC]

Brandon. Do you belirve Our Savior paid for our sins? If you do, & you belive in an eternaly burning hell, where the wages of sin is paid, then is the Redeemer in that lake of fire still paying for our sin. Once again, please don’t give me yor answer without scripture. Thankyou, Larry M.

Again Larry, you are asking me a question, then limiting based on your rules, how I answer it. I do not believe in scripture alone, why then would I use scripture alone to answer your question.

Christ redeemed us of our sins through his death and suffering, not by going to hell. Hell is a punishment for sins not a mode of redemption, otherwise, we could all be redeemed by going to hell. Because Christ is God and did not sin, it is ridiculous to assert that he suffered in Hell. Is this what your trying to say?

 

[SDA2RC]

Since we seem to be stalled, here is a good summary of the Catholic teaching of Hell in the book Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, by Dr. Ludwig Ott. I have scanned in the page and converted with OCR, so if it is not a perfect reproduction, that is why.
The fire of hell was conceived by individual Fathers such as Origen and St. Gregory of Nyssa, and by later Theologians, like Ambrosius Catharinus.J. A. Mohler and H. Klee, in a metaphorical sense as a symbol for purely spiritual has not been formally condemned by the Churth, The majority of die Fathers, the Sdioolmen and the majority of modern theologians believe it to be a physical fire, but stress the difference between this fire and ordinary fire. St. Thomas, following the precedent of St. Augustine and St. Gregoy the Great, explains flic effect of physical fire on a purely spiritual essence as a binding of the spirits to material fire, which acts as an instrument of Divine Penal Justice.

The Cuput Firmiter of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) declares : " Those (the rejected) will receive a perpetual punishment with the devil." D 429. Cf. D 40, 835, 840. A Synod at Constantinople (543) rejected the Apocatastasis doctrine of Origen. D 211.

Holy Writ frequently emphasizes the eternal duration of hell-punishment by speaking of it as an " eternal reproach " (Dn. 12, 2 : cf. Wis. 4, 19) ; an " eternal fire " (Judith 16, 21 ; Mt, 18, 8 ; 25, 41 ; Judith 7), an " ever*lasting punishment " (Mt. 25, 46), an " eternal punishment in destruction " (2 Thess. i, 9). T**hat the word " eternal " is not to be understood in the **sense of a duration which is indeed long, but limited, is proved by parallel expressions like "unquenchable fire " (Mt. 3, *12 ; *Mk. 9, 43), or Hell, “where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished " (Mk. 9, 45). As well as the contrast of “everlasting punishement” - “life everlasting” in Mt. 25, 46. According to Apoc. 14 (19, 3), " the smoke of their torments (of the damned) shall ascend up for ever and ever,” that is, without end. Cf. Apoc. 20, 10.

 

[larry_m]

Thankyou Brandon for being truthful. I take it you are Catholic by your answer of not using scripture alone. Please correct me if I am wrong. Being a Protestant I stand on “It is written.” Not scripture & tradition. I accept your reasoning & respect your way of searching for truth. I may respectfully disagree with another persons principle in bible study, but that doesn’t mean I don’t respect you & your journey with your Savior. Thanks Brandon for your being straight forward. We all have to work out our own salvation in fear & trembling. May you always have that peace that passes all understanding my friend, in your life & studies for truth. Larry M.

 

[SDA2RC]

Thankyou Brandon for being truthful. I take it you are Catholic by your answer of not using scripture alone. Please correct me if I am wrong. Being a Protestant I stand on “It is written.” Not scripture & tradition. I accept your reasoning & respect your way of searching for truth. I may respectfully disagree with another persons principle in bible study, but that doesn’t mean I don’t respect you & your journey with your Savior. Thanks Brandon for your being straight forward. We all have to work out our own salvation in fear & trembling. May you always have that peace that passes all understanding my friend, in your life & studies for truth. Larry M.

Larry, on a side note, if you truly follow “it is written” then you must follow tradition, for we are commanded to do so!

(1 Cor 11:2 NKJV) Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.

(2 Th 2:15 NKJV) Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

(2 Th 3:6 NKJV) But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.

If you would like to discuss this further, let me know and we can start another thread.