Seventh Day Adventist Teachings On Hell

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CATHOLICS ARE TRUE BELIEVERS RIGHT READ THIS

**1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols.

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

SO ARENT YOU SINNING? AND THIS IS FROM NEW TESTAMENT
**

 

[Protestant101]

Protestant, no one is asking you to believe the Witch, we are asking you to believe scripture. The inspired writer of scripture said:

(Vs 12) “When the woman saw Samuel…”
(Vs 15) “Then Samuel said…”
(Vs. 16) “And Samuel said…”
Finally in verse 20 we read, “Then Saul immediately fell full length upon the ground and was very afraid because of the words of Samuel;”

What we are asking here Protestant101, is this, “Do you believe that when the INSPIRED writer of scripture identified the spirit as Samuel, he was wrong? Do you believe this part of scripture as it is written?”

Your profuse use of ellipses illustrates a classic “apologetics” approach of obscuring pertinent Bible text. Apologetics is eisegesis; while true Bible interpretation is exegesis.

I believe the INSPIRED Bible text EXACTLY as it is written; but NOT as you have stated it. The two are worlds apart; and you did not accurately state the scripture message. Your use of ellipses gave a false impression of the message intended by the author here.

The text does not reveal the Bible writer’s opinion here; the text revealed only that Saul “perceived that it was Samuel,” (1 Sam.28:14), and that Saul’s perception was based upon the testimony of a witch.

The text tells us that Saul could discern no comfort either from heaven or earth, and so he resolves to knock at the very gates of hell, and to see if any there will befriend him and give him advice: Seek me a woman that has a **“familiar spirit,” **1Sa_28:7. The Bible calls it a “familiar spirit.”

And his servants were too officious to serve him in this evil affair; they presently recommended one to him at Endor (a city not far off) who had escaped the execution of Saul’s edict against practitioners of witch craft. To this evil sorceress he resolves to apply. There is no way to Biblically justify calling this “proof” one way or the other about the state of the dead.

Saul went to a seance; and God was against him for this heinous and hypocritical sin.

 

[MarysRoses]

Your profuse use of ellipses illustrates a classic “apologetics” approach of obscuring pertinent Bible text. Apologetics is eisegesis; while true Bible interpretation is exegesis.

I believe the INSPIRED Bible text EXACTLY as it is written; but NOT as you have stated it. The two are worlds apart; and you did not accurately state the scripture message. Your use of ellipses gave a false impression of the message intended by the author here.

I see you are the one taking one phrase and giving it undue weight.

The text does not reveal the Bible writer’s opinion here; the text revealed only that Saul**** “perceived that it was Samuel,”**** (1 Sam.28:14), and that Saul’s perception was based upon the testimony of a witch.

I think it relates the story quite well, and without confusion. Look at several translations:

Then Saul** knew** it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. ** NIV**

And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage. ** NASB**

He is an old man wrapped in a robe,” she replied. Saul realized it was Samuel, and he fell to the ground before him. New Living Translation

and Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. **KJV
**
And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage. ESV

Saul knew it was Samuel, so he bowed down low. CEV

I don’t see anything that Saul was deceived by a ‘lying spirit’ or ‘demon’. The writer accepts that Saul knew what he was speaking to was Samuel.

Reminds me of the story where Jacob deceived his father Isaac. Isaac certainly perceived Jacob as Esau, but the writer was clear about the deception. There is no such explanation anywhere in this story.

(Cont. Next Post)

 

[MarysRoses]

(cont. from previous post)

The text tells us that Saul could discern no comfort either from heaven or earth, and so he resolves to knock at the very gates of hell, and to see if any there will befriend him and give him advice: Seek me a woman that has a **“familiar spirit,” **1Sa_28:7. The Bible calls it a “familiar spirit.”

The woman is described as a medium, or one with a ‘familiar spirit’
The bible does not say that the man Saul is talking to is her familiar spirit

Here’s what the bible says:

11 Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?"
   "Bring up Samuel," he said.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"

It would seem that the woman didn’t get what she expected, she saw Samuel and realized her client was Saul, the king.

And his servants were too officious to serve him in this evil affair; they presently recommended one to him at Endor (a city not far off) who had escaped the execution of Saul’s edict against practitioners of witch craft. To this evil sorceress he resolves to apply. There is no way to Biblically justify calling this “proof” one way or the other about the state of the dead.

Saul went to a seance; and God was against him for this heinous and hypocritical sin.

The seance was a sin. agreed. To ignore what this passage has to say about the state of the dead is to ignore what the bible is actually saying in favor of what you’d like it to say to support your unbiblical theories.

Here is the entire chapter, again, to be read in context.

4 The Philistines assembled and came and set up camp at Shunem, while Saul gathered all Israel and set up camp at Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. 6 He inquired of the LORD, but the LORD did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. 7 Saul then said to his attendants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her.”
“There is one in Endor,” they said.

8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name."

9 But the woman said to him, "Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?"

10 Saul swore to her by the LORD, "As surely as the LORD lives, you will not be punished for this."

11 Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?"
   "Bring up Samuel," he said.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"

13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?"
   The woman said, "I see a ghostly figure [a] coming up out of the earth."

14 "What does he look like?" he asked.
   "An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.
   Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”
“I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”

16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has departed from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines."   20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel's words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and all that night.

21 When the woman came to Saul and saw that he was greatly shaken, she said, “Look, your servant has obeyed you. I took my life in my hands and did what you told me to do. 22 Now please listen to your servant and let me give you some food so you may eat and have the strength to go on your way.”

I’d like to point out the last couple of verses. You said that Saul did not directly recognize Samuel, he was only taking the witch’s word for it. Yet the bible says clearly that Saul was struck down by Samuels words and was afraid. AFTER this, the woman came to Saul and saw him and spoke to him. The passage describes a conversation between Samuel and Saul.

MarysRoses

 

[Protestant101]

(I’d like to point out the last couple of verses. You said that Saul did not directly recognize Samuel, he was only taking the witch’s word for it. Yet the bible says clearly that Saul was struck down by Samuels words and was afraid. AFTER this, the woman came to Saul and saw him and spoke to him. The passage describes a conversation between Samuel and Saul.

MarysRoses

1/ In the Bible; wizards were always sentenced to death, and banned from the land: 1 Sam.28:3, Lev.20:7

2/ Earlier in 1 Sam. 28, (vs.15), we are told that God had already departed from Saul; and would NOT communicate with him.

3/ Samuel was supposedly “brought up.” Other expressions for the same text say “ascending out of the earth;” “cometh up,” and “bring…up.” Is this where the righteous dead are? Down in the Earth? Not according to anyone who believes in the immortal soul!

**4/ **“Samuel” is described as an “old man,” and “covered with a mantle.” Is this the way that “immortal souls” would appear? And where did this “soul” get the body from? Immortal souls are said to be “disembodied;” when was this “Samuel” resurrected? Did God obey the beck and call of the witch and raise up Samuel? If not; then can it be? Can Satan raise the dead?

**5/ **The apparition of “Samuel” told Saul: “Tomorrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me.” As we see in the Bible record; Saul committed suicide on the battle field the next day. Where did Samuel go if the wicked Saul was appointed to go to the same place?

6/ The Bible never once says in this or any other passage that it was actually Saul who had seen this “Samuel.” Saul only THOUGHT HE WAS SEEING Samuel; and before he saw this apparition; he had only received his information second-handed from the witch; but the Bible only says that Saul “perceived” from the witch’s description, that it must have been “Samuel.” This is how the evil spirit convinced him he was “Samuel.”

The truth of this matter is that Satan had deceived the dissolute old woman; and she, in turn, deceived Saul. This incident of Saul going to the witch was nothing more than a Satanic séance.

7/ The enormity of Saul’s sin in going to a witch is revealed in these words:

“So Saul died…for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit; to inquire of it, and inquired not of the Lord: therefore He slew him.” 1 Chron.10:13-14

The Catholic Church, according to you, teaches that it is not a sin to talk to evil spirits to find out God’s will. Surely you are not saying God makes His truth known through witches, even though it is technically “sin” to go and consult one?

 

[system]

1/ In the Bible; wizards were always sentenced to death, and banned from the land: 1 Sam.28:3, Lev.20:7

2/ Earlier in 1 Sam. 28, (vs.15), we are told that God had already departed from Saul; and would NOT communicate with him.

3/ Samuel was supposedly “brought up.” Other expressions for the same text say “ascending out of the earth;” “cometh up,” and “bring…up.” Is this where the righteous dead are? Down in the Earth? Not according to anyone who believes in the immortal soul!

**4/ **“Samuel” is described as an “old man,” and “covered with a mantle.” Is this the way that “immortal souls” would appear? And where did this “soul” get the body from? Immortal souls are said to be “disembodied;” when was this “Samuel” resurrected? Did God obey the beck and call of the witch and raise up Samuel? If not; then can it be? Can Satan raise the dead?

**5/ **The apparition of “Samuel” told Saul: “Tomorrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me.” As we see in the Bible record; Saul committed suicide on the battle field the next day. Where did Samuel go if the wicked Saul was appointed to go to the same place?

6/ The Bible never once says in this or any other passage that it was actually Saul who had seen this “Samuel.” Saul only THOUGHT HE WAS SEEING Samuel; and before he saw this apparition; he had only received his information second-handed from the witch; but the Bible only says that Saul “perceived” from the witch’s description, that it must have been “Samuel.” This is how the evil spirit convinced him he was “Samuel.”

The truth of this matter is that Satan had deceived the dissolute old woman; and she, in turn, deceived Saul. This incident of Saul going to the witch was nothing more than a Satanic séance.

7/ The enormity of Saul’s sin in going to a witch is revealed in these words:

“So Saul died…for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit; to inquire of it, and inquired not of the Lord: therefore He slew him.” 1 Chron.10:13-14

The Catholic Church, according to you, teaches that it is not a sin to talk to evil spirits to find out God’s will. Surely you are not saying God makes His truth known through witches, even though it is technically “sin” to go and consult one?

Don’t be ridiculous. I have several times said this was a sin.

The point is, again, regardless of what interpretations you are putting on the passage, the language is clear.

YOU are the one **adding words **to the bible passages:

" The apparition of ‘Samuel’. "

The BIBLE actually says:

"“I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”
**
16 Samuel said, **“Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has departed from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me.”

Saul spoke to Samuel, by illicit means and it was a sin, but the **BIBLE **says he spoke to Samuel. That is certainly a fatal difficulty for your belief that we do not have soul.

MarysRoses

 

[SDA2RC]

Your profuse use of ellipses illustrates a classic “apologetics” approach of obscuring pertinent Bible text. Apologetics is eisegesis; while true Bible interpretation is exegesis.

The use if ellipses simply points to the fact that there is more in the sentence or passage, they are used for brevity. Tell me, where can I find out about this “classic” apologetics approach, is there a book of classics somewhere? LOL

I believe the INSPIRED Bible text EXACTLY as it is written; but NOT as you have stated it.

I quoted it exactly as it is written… it says that the being was Samuel… that is what is written… NO WHERE else in the passage is the being identified as anyone other than Samuel, that is how it is written.

The text does not reveal the Bible writer’s opinion here; the text revealed only that Saul “perceived that it was Samuel,” (1 Sam.28:14), and that Saul’s perception was based upon the testimony of a witch.

I agree the text does not state that it was simply the writers opinion, it states the fact that the being was Samuel, and never says otherwise.

Of course Saul “percieved” it was Samuel… it was! LOL Saul would have perceived it was Samuel if it was Samuel… wouldn’t he? LOL The text reveals more than just that Saul perceived this, the inspired writer of scripture also identifies the individual as Samuel… and never indicates it was anyone but Samuel.

There is no way to Biblically justify calling this “proof” one way or the other about the state of the dead.

You mean other than the fact that the Bible says that Samuel (who was dead) appeared to Saul and the witch? Whats the old saying… “God Said it, I believe it, and thats good enough for me!”

Answer this directly for me… its a simple yes or no answer: Does the Bible passage we are discussing ever state that this is anyone other than Samuel? If so who?

 

[adventistnomore]

The Catholic Church, according to you, teaches that it is not a sin to talk to evil spirits to find out God’s will.

Of course it is a sin to consult witches; Samuel’s reprehensible action sealed his doom.

Surely you are not saying God makes His truth known through witches, even though it is technically “sin” to go and consult one?

Take this up with the biblical author–not us.

 

[SDA2RC]

1/ In the Bible; wizards were always sentenced to death, and banned from the land: 1 Sam.28:3, Lev.20:7

No one is debating this…

2/ Earlier in 1 Sam. 28, (vs.15), we are told that God had already departed from Saul; and would NOT communicate with him.

Again… no one is debating this point.

3/ Samuel was supposedly “brought up.” Other expressions for the same text say “ascending out of the earth;” “cometh up,” and “bring…up.” Is this where the righteous dead are? Down in the Earth? Not according to anyone who believes in the immortal soul!.

Actually the Jews believed that the abode of the dead, or Sheol was in fact in the earth. Whether you like where he came from or not, scripture still says that it was Samuel that appeared, after death.

**4/ **“Samuel” is described as an “old man,” and “covered with a mantle.” Is this the way that “immortal souls” would appear? And where did this “soul” get the body from? Immortal souls are said to be “disembodied;” when was this “Samuel” resurrected? Did God obey the beck and call of the witch and raise up Samuel? If not; then can it be? Can Satan raise the dead?

We never said that Samuel was resurrected… we simply said that he appeared and spoke to Saul. Angels are also Spirits, but appear in physical form, most likely with clothing. This does not require them to have bodies. I am not sure where you got the idea that it does. As far as how immortal souls would appear… I can only take the Bible’s word for it… and in this case it appears that the immortal soul of Samuel appeared as an old man, covered with a mantle.

**5/ **The apparition of “Samuel” told Saul: “Tomorrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me.” As we see in the Bible record; Saul committed suicide on the battle field the next day. Where did Samuel go if the wicked Saul was appointed to go to the same place?

Sheol, or abode of the dead. “According to the Jewish conceptions of that day, the souls of the dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place the Sheol of the Old Testament literature, and the Hades of the New Testament writings (cf. Luke 16:22; in the Greek 16:23).” (NewAdvent.com)

6/ The Bible never once says in this or any other passage that it was actually Saul who had seen this “Samuel.” Saul only THOUGHT HE WAS SEEING Samuel; and before he saw this apparition; he had only received his information second-handed from the witch; but the Bible only says that Saul “perceived” from the witch’s description, that it must have been “Samuel.” This is how the evil spirit convinced him he was “Samuel.”

What??? Scripture says that Saul PERCEIVED Samuel, and the Bible writer several times states that the person was Samuel. Other translations say that Saul KNEW it was Samuel, no where does scripture say that he only thought he saw him, but really didnt… Thats funny! Perceive, means to become aware, generally through the senses. It requires an awareness. This is not the same as just thinking he saw him, as you are trying to force into the text.

The truth of this matter is that Satan had deceived the dissolute old woman; and she, in turn, deceived Saul. This incident of Saul going to the witch was nothing more than a Satanic séance.

Hmmm. the only problem with this explanation of yours is that it contradicts the clear word of scripture. Scripture never claims that Saul was deceived, that he saw a demon, etc… I understand however, that you must insert this in order to support your belief.

7/ The enormity of Saul’s sin in going to a witch is revealed in these words:

Continued

 

[SDA2RC]

“So Saul died…for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit; to inquire of it, and inquired not of the Lord: therefore He slew him.” 1 Chron.10:13-14

Yep, scripture says that you should not try to consult a medium this was his sin. However, scripture also never says that communication with the dead does not happen, in fact it reports just the opposite!

T

he Catholic Church, according to you, teaches that it is not a sin to talk to evil spirits to find out God’s will.

Hmm… I dont remember anyone saying this is what we believe, can you please point me to the post where this was said?

Surely you are not saying God makes His truth known through witches, even though it is technically “sin” to go and consult one?

The witch didn’t tell him anything, Samuel did, and yes God had used Samuel both while alive and dead to make known his will. God can work in our lives, even through our sins, do you not believe that?

 

[Protestant101]

The witch didn’t tell him anything, Samuel did, and yes God had used Samuel both while alive and dead to make known his will. God can work in our lives, even through our sins, do you not believe that?

The witch did not tell Saul anything?

1Sa 28:14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? **And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. **And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

 

[SDA2RC]

The witch did not tell Saul anything?

1Sa 28:14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? **And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. **And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

Sorry I should have made myself more clear… you asked if God makes his truth known through witches, my response was in relation to your question i.e… the witch did not tell Saul anything from God, so the answer to your question is…no.

 

[Protestant101]

Sorry I should have made myself more clear… you asked if God makes his truth known through witches, my response was in relation to your question i.e… the witch did not tell Saul anything from God, so the answer to your question is…no.

That is correct; the witch was not speaking for God. Nor was anything she intimated about the apparition supposedly being Samuel something that came of God.

In 1Sa 28:15:

" And Samuel said to Saul, why hast thou disquieted me to bring me up?.. "

As I mentioned in another post above, in more detail; this makes it a clear case that this was not the true Samuel; his soul was at rest in Abraham’s bosom, in the state of bliss and happiness in heaven, and it was not in the power of men or of devils and witches to disquiet it; nor would he have talked of his being brought up, but rather of his coming down, had it been really he; much less would he have acknowledged that he was brought up by Saul, by means of a witch, and through the help of the devil:

 

[MarysRoses]

That is correct; the witch was not speaking for God. Nor was anything she intimated about the apparition supposedly being Samuel something that came of God.

In 1Sa 28:15:

" And Samuel said to Saul, why hast thou disquieted me to bring me up?.. "

As I mentioned in another post above, in more detail; this makes it a clear case that this was not the true Samuel; his soul was at rest in Abraham’s bosom, in the state of bliss and happiness in heaven, and it was not in the power of men or of devils and witches to disquiet it; nor would he have talked of his being brought up, but rather of his coming down, had it been really he; much less would he have acknowledged that he was brought up by Saul, by means of a witch, and through the help of the devil:

I disagree with your conclusions about the identity of the person the Bible writer is identifying as “Samuel”. The writer accepts him as Samuel and I see no reason try to read anything else into the text. I also know of no other circumstance in which a witch would have given a true prophecy as God’s prophet, which is a huge problem with the Adventist interpretation… anyway…

The reason I posted about Saul and Samuel, and why its relevant to Adventist beliefs on hell, the original topic of this thread, is that Adventists officially do not believe the dead experience heaven or hell at death. If Samuel did indeed speak to Saul, then the Adventists are wrong about the state of the dead. Which is what I was originally pointing out.

So, the second part of your post facinates me.

The Adventist position, according to their stated official beliefs, is that the dead are unconscious, and will not experience the “state of bliss and happiness in heaven” until after the second coming.

You said: “this was not the true Samuel; his soul was at rest in Abraham’s bosom, in the state of bliss and happiness in heaven, and it was not in the power of men or of devils and witches to disquiet it”

This is the Adventist statement of belief:

adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

“The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord.”

Adventists do not believe we possess an immortal soul. I think the issue of Saul and Samuel is interesting but not critical, if we can agree that we do have an immortal soul. If we belong to
Jesus, then to be absent from the body is to be “at home with the Lord” as St. Paul says. If we have an immortal soul, then the Adventist idea that hell is something temporary at the last judgment, and that the unconscious wicked will be raised only to be annihilated, can’t also be true.

So, I’m curious, are you differing from the official Adventist position on the state of the dead?

MarysRoses

 

[Protestant101]

So, I’m curious, are you differing from the official Adventist position on the state of the dead?

MarysRoses

No; I am not differing from the official Adventist doctrine. In the first post where I commented about 1 Sam.28, as well as the last post above; the intent was to draw attention to the non-Adventist belief that people are alive in heaven as soon as they die. “Abraham’s bosom” simply signifies this non-Adventist idea from the viewpoint of the ancient Jews of Jesus’ time.

The whole point of it is to say that IF Samuel was “in heaven” (it certainly would not have been hell) then how/why would the witch "bring him “up?” That would mean that Samuel went down; if you get my drift.

The Bible writer here in 1 Sam.28 does not say that he personally thought this apparition was “Samuel” only that the witch and Saul “saw” Samuel." The fact that this apparition was “brought up” by a witch indicates that the Adventist position is quite correct. God does not speak to His people through witches, and other things He has condemned. God does not do something evil to express something “good.”

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

 

[MarysRoses]

No; I am not differing from the official Adventist doctrine. In the first post where I commented about 1 Sam.28, as well as the last post above; the intent was to draw attention to the non-Adventist belief that people are alive in heaven as soon as they die. “Abraham’s bosom” simply signifies this non-Adventist idea from the viewpoint of the ancient Jews of Jesus’ time.

The whole point of it is to say that IF Samuel was “in heaven” (it certainly would not have been hell) then how/why would the witch "bring him “up?” That would mean that Samuel went down; if you get my drift.

The Bible writer here in 1 Sam.28 does not say that he personally thought this apparition was “Samuel” only that the witch and Saul “saw” Samuel." The fact that this apparition was “brought up” by a witch indicates that the Adventist position is quite correct. God does not speak to His people through witches, and other things He has condemned. God does not do something evil to express something “good.”

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Perhaps you aren’t clear on what “Samuel said…” means in plain english? The conversation and the prophecy are related in terms of “Samuel said”, NOT “the witch said”

MarysRoses

 

[MarysRoses]

No; I am not differing from the official Adventist doctrine. In the first post where I commented about 1 Sam.28, as well as the last post above; the intent was to draw attention to the non-Adventist belief that people are alive in heaven as soon as they die. “Abraham’s bosom” simply signifies this non-Adventist idea from the viewpoint of the ancient Jews of Jesus’ time.

Abraham’s bosom is not heaven. Confusing the two will only increase your confusion.

The whole point of it is to say that IF Samuel was “in heaven” (it certainly would not have been hell) then how/why would the witch "bring him “up?” That would mean that Samuel went down; if you get my drift.

“coming up” and “going down” aren’t very relevant in discussing the after life in any case, as they certainly aren’t places in the conventional, physical sense. The Old Testament Sheol is not the New Testament idea of heaven either. Again, you are confusing the two to your own confusion. Sheol was the place of the dead.

The Bible writer here in 1 Sam.28 does not say that he personally thought this apparition was “Samuel” only that the witch and Saul “saw” Samuel."

Exactly, they saw Samuel. NOT “They saw an evil spirit pretending to be Samuel” Do you really think the bible writer didn’t know the difference? Or, that if he did, he just chose not to make the distinction clear to the reader?

The fact that this apparition was “brought up” by a witch indicates that the Adventist position is quite correct. God does not speak to His people through witches, and other things He has condemned. God does not do something evil to express something “good.”

God allows us to use our free will, and often allows an evil act to be used to His own purpose. “all things work together for the good of those who love God”.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

No one is recommending people consult mediums. It is a sin.

Adventists have a great deal of confusion in dealing with this bible passage. Like the parable about the Rich Man and Lazarus, it is essential for Adventists to somehow make the plain words of scripture, which are describing an afterlife in which there is consciousness, to somehow mean the opposite of what they are saying!

MarysRoses

 

[Protestant101]

I will put my replies in red

Abraham’s bosom is not heaven. Confusing the two will only increase your confusion.

I have already said that I know this too; but what I also said was that to the Jews of Bible times; that’s exactly what it was.

“coming up” and “going down” aren’t very relevant in discussing the after life in any case, as they certainly aren’t places in the conventional, physical sense. The Old Testament Sheol is not the New Testament idea of heaven either. Again, you are confusing the two to your own confusion. Sheol was the place of the dead.

It is very relevant or the Bible writer would not have mentioned it so specifically in this passage. What does the Bible mean by “coming up?”

Exactly, they saw Samuel. NOT “They saw an evil spirit pretending to be Samuel” Do you really think the bible writer didn’t know the difference? Or, that if he did, he just chose not to make the distinction clear to the reader?

The Bible writer did make the distinction clear when he told us that Saul went to a witch with a “familiar spirit.”

God allows us to use our free will, and often allows an evil act to be used to His own purpose. “all things work together for the good of those who love God”.

Yes, and God allowed Saul to use his own free will; and to reap the harvest thereof by being sent “strong delusions” that he might believe the lie of evil spirits impersonating Samuel.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 

[po18guy]

Dear CAF Members,

After a discussion on a different thread, I thought it would be benenficial to compare and contrast Adventist and Catholic beliefs on the afterlife. For this thread, let`s examine Adventist and Catholic teachings on hell.

An article posted at catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9109prot.asp states the following:

*Adventists teach that the soul of man is not conscious after death, but that it enters into a kind of sleep when the body dies. When the resurrection occurs, bodies and souls will be revivified. **Just people will enter into life everlasting, while the wicked will be punished by fire until they die and cease to exist once again. ***

The article also states:
*
The Bible teaches the eternal duration of hell. Jesus says in Matthew 25:46,** “They will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life:” ***

The following is also helpful;
ttp://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9705convsb.aspç

My question for Adventists is the following:
Do Adventists believe hell is eternal? Do Adventists believe heaven is eternal?

The Catholic Church believes hell is eternal, as is heaven. Scripture, oral tradition, and the teachings of the early Church fathers is the basis for this belief. In addition to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the following article is useful for understanding the Catholic position.

catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0110frs.asp

Sincerely,

Maria1212

Our Chaplain at work is an Adventist pastor. He believes and teaches that hell is Not eternal. He also believes and teaches that death is “sleep”. However, there is no biblical reason for the existence of the SDA church, which is consumed with Christ’s return. Christ Himself said that He did not know the day of His return-only the Father does. So, why did Miller try to know this? What kind of foundation is that? The good news is that our Chaplain had “never” heard a Catholic speak with fervor or great love of the Lord before. He is being enlightened, but does not interact as much with me he did before! I am waiting for the opportunity to ask him if he loves Christ enough to follow wherever He leads.

Christ’s peace be always with you.

 

[Protestant101]

So, why did Miller try to know this? What kind of foundation is that?

William Miller was never a Seventh-day Adventist.

Do YOU love Jesus enough to follow Him wherever He leads YOU?