Seventh Day Adventist

[SDA2RC]

This response is to Part 5 of your post:

Regarding Matthew 18, you said: Exactly. And guess what? We’ll be keeping the Sabbath (Seventh-Day, not Sunday) in heaven.

**I think you completely missed the point, or purposely ignored it. God gave the CHURCH the ability to bind or loose anything (“whatever”), therefore, if the Church binds us to Sunday, then by the authority of Christ, we are bound. If the Church “loosed” the Jewish Sabbath (Which it didn’t, Christ did this Himself), then we are loosed from the Jewish Sabbath. This is why the scripture tells us that the CHURCH (not Adventist’s private interpretation of scripture) Is the foundation and pillar of truth. This is why scripture tells us that the offices of the Church were given to us to protect us from False doctrines, such as rejecting the New Covenant and holding onto the Old Covenant (as Adventists do), and this is why the scripture tells us to obey our leaders in the Church, which is what Protestants and by extension Adventists, refused to do. We follow all of scripture and try to approach it in a balanced way. In my experience, from nearly 30 years in the Adventist Church, the opposite happens, Adventists hold out the Sabbath as the immovable pillar then wrap everything else around that. We hold out Christ and his sacrifice. The Church, is the body of Christ. **

Isaiah also reminds us that the Sabbath will be kept forever in the new earth: "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD." Isaiah 66:22,23.
All flesh in heaven will come to worship before God EACH Sabbath Day!

**I love it when Adventists use this verse, because it shows just how much they pull verses out of context and out of the whole of scripture to try to support their pet beliefs. First… this verse written to Jews, by a Jew, is not even speaking about what will happen in heaven… LOL It never says “In heaven….” It says that as the New Heaven and New Earth remain… so will your seed remain. READ THE PASSAGE… it says nothing about anything happening in heaven… it is drawing a time comparison. It then goes on to say from one NEW MOON (Monthly feasts) to another and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh will come before Him. **
**Now when is this taking place… Lets take the parts of the passage that you conveniently omitted and add it in… namely, verses 20, 21, and 24. **

Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren out of all the nations for an offering unto the LORD, upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring their offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

So… according to your statement above… if this is referring to what we will be doing in heaven, then we will be brought out by all the nations in heaven, on horses and chariots (cause them must have those in heaven if this is talking about heaven…right?) and in LITTERS, and on mules, and on swift beasts. Wow… so all the nations will be in heaven and will bring us out like this?

Isa 66:21 And of them also will I take for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.

This is even better… IN HEAVEN (cause that’s what you said this passage is talking about), there are PRIESTS AND LEVITES… now wait a minute… The New Covenant did away with Levitical priests!!! Must be Catholic Priests… LOL Cause surely there cannot be levitical priests in heaven… right?

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

WOW… in your version of heaven (Remember, you said this passage was talking about heaven), you are going to walk out on the carcasses of men that transgressed God. And look at the worms that will not die, and you will walk on their coals, cause their fire will not be quenched. WOW!!! That’s your heaven? Riding on horses and mules, while being brought out by the nations, worshipping on the New Moon (sounds likes paganism to me… LOL) and having levites and priests, and then walking on dead people who are still burning?

LOL… and look at that… the fire that burns all us Catholics in your heaven, while you worship on Saturday and walk on our corpses… is NOT QUENCHED… Don’t Adventists believe that the fire will indeed be quenched?

Tell me… is this a literal description of heaven?

**Cont - **

 

[SDA2RC]

You said:
The Seventh-Day Sabbath is God’s final test for mankind as the leading powers slowly bring about a National Sunday Law which will force all men to worship on that Day. We know this to be true, for history will repeat itself of what the Catholics did for 1260 years from 538 AD to 1798 AD, as the “wore out the saints of the most high”.

Oh yes… Lets look at this: First… I worship Christ… I believe that Christ is the test of my faith… not a day. We do not worship a day… you shouldn’t either… its idolatry. Now… lets look at your 1260 years. Please answer the following questions for us:

• **Who was killed in 538 AD to begin this… since this is the period of persecution. **
• Why does Samuel Bacchiocchi again, disagree with you that this date is significant.
• How do you add 1260, 360 day years, and get 1798? (Remember the prophetic year according to Adventism is 360 days… and 1260, 360 day years, does not equal 1798.)
• **Where does scripture specify that 538 is the starting point to this prophecy. **
  **Here are the facts… **
• **Adventists can not name a single person who was killed in this “persecution” of 538 that kicked off this 1260 day prophecy for them. **
• **Samuel Bacchiocci disagrees because, since he understands Church history, he knows that nothing happened. **
• If you add 1260 years that are 360 days each, it ends in 1781-82 not 1798. Likewise, if you add 2300 years of 360 days to 457 BC, it does not end up at 1844. Adventist prophetic timelines are based on the wish that people will not consistently apply what they say… i.e. that a prophetic year is 360 days. (the calendar year between 538 AD and 1798 AD was 365 days.)

All during the dark ages (the 1260 years from 538-1798) these people were hunted down like wild animals, were brutally tortured, were burned to death at the stake for upholding their beliefs in the 10 Commandments and the Sabbath Day and not accepting that “God Gave the Church the Authority to Change the Laws”.

This is the creative history of Adventists, created to support their martyr complex… most have no idea what the groups just listed even believed… lets take the Waldenses for example. EGW says that they kept the Sabbath and hence, you have repeated this claiming that Waldenses kept the Sabbath. However, um… THEY DIDN’T. Bacchiocci admits this… and here is a portion of a letter that I sent to the Waldensian Church in Italy, asking them specifically about this. The response was from, “Thomas Soggin, Waldensian Minister in Bergamo (North Italy), in charge - by our Board, the Tavola Valdese (the executive of the Waldensian Synod) - to answer to your letter.”

This is an excerpt of the letter: “4) The Waldensians were called in Latin: Mater Reformationis (=Mother of the Reformation of the 16th century). Before they were an old Middle Ages poverty movement, but NOT a Church. Also in that time they were not interested in Jewis Sabbath, but much more in the third day (the day of the resurrection of Jesus).”

**Further he said: “Anyway the Waldensians have never been, and are not interested now, in **the Adventist distinctive doctrines such as: -Soul Sleep, -Michael the Archangel is Christ, -Modern Day revelation through prophets.”

Sorry… the Waldensian’s themselves don’t support your historical lies. We can go through each group if you want. Do you believe you know more about the Waldensians that they themselves do?

 

[SDA2RC]

Parts 6 and 7:

There is not much in these sections that has not already been covered… however, I would like to comment on your declaration that because the Sabbath is called the Lords Sabbath in Isaiah that the term “Lord’s Day” refers to the Sabbath. The logic that you use is sincerely flawed. It is like saying:

That Chevy is Green… That car over there is green too… therefore all green cars must be a Chevy.

The passage in Isaiah is written to the Jews… the Passage in Revelation is seperated by several centuries and written to Christians… to pull one verse from one place, and try to say that it interprets another, when the context and subject and audience are soo far removed from each other is very poor Biblical scholarship, and faulty logic.

The fact is that when Christians at the time of the Apostles used the term “Lord’s Day” it always referred to Sunday. This can be proven from their writings.

Here are some facts about the Adventist Sabbath:

1. Adventists observe the Sabbath based on Man Made time delineations, not scriptural ones.
2. Adventists cannot even explain from scripture how one is to keep the Sabbath in the artic regions where there is no sun for weeks at a time.
3. There is not one single command for Christians after the resurrection of Christ to observe the Sabbath
4. The Sabbath was part of the Old Covenant according to scripture
5. The old Covenant was abolished according to scripture.
6. New Testament Christians are told to obey the Body of Christ, the Church. Adventists reject this portion of scripture.
7. By observing the Sabbath, in my opinion, Adventists reject the atonement of Christ and the New Covenant.

This is a small portion of the reasoning behind Catholics rejecting the Adventist’s man made doctrines.

 

[SDA2RC]

A report of an inquisition before whom were brought some Waldenses of Moravia in the middle of the 15th century declares that among the waldenses “Not a few indeed celebrate the Sabbath with the Jews”:.-- Johann Joseph Ignaz Von Dollinger, Beitrage Zur Sektengeschichte Des Mittelalters (Reports On The History Of The Sects Of The Middle Ages, Munich, 1890, 2D PT., P. 661.

Lysimachus,
Can you provide us with a scan of the page in this text so we can actually see who and what it was talking about rather than only 10 words. I did a search online and found your reference taken word for word from another page, which only gave the Bibliography of the Great Controversy by EGW as the source. Hardly a credible source here.

I really encourage you to conact the Waldensian Church in Italy… they disagree with you. When it comes to their history, I will go with them… not EGW. I think you should to!

 

[SDA2RC]

Delraek,

I already knew and read about Dr. Sam Bacchiocchi’s research. Which is why I particularly gave you a reliable reference.



Let us remember: Regardless of whether there is research to support that these churches in Europe kept the Sabbath or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is, “what saith the Lord?”–from scriptures.

Unfortunately, This is hardly a reliable reference… a) it does not appear that it can be verified, b) you only gave us 10 words. The “They” referred to could refer to ANYONE…

One thing of importance to recognize too… is that I dont disagree that there are many heretical groups throughout history that have observed the Sabbath, just as there are now…

 

[SDA2RC]

Sorry, this is the first time I’ve had a chance to check back at this thread since 2 weeks ago. I definitely have plans to get more into it, but I’ve been so caught up in my business/health activities.

I’m dissapointed that you feel so moved to remove your semplance of credibility from my posts–especially when my historical data is only a “smidgen” of what my whole post was all about. My whole purpose was to point out from scripture why there is no scriptural backing whatsoever to recognize Sunday as having anything “sacred” associated with it.

Lysimachus:
I would disagree with you… there is plenty of Biblical backing to honor Sunday. However, there is no scriptural backing for a Christian to observe the Jewish Sabbath. NOT ONE SINGLE CHRISTIAN was ever commanded to keep the Jewish Sabbath after the Resurrection.

However, Christians are told in scripture that:

1. 
   *]The Church is the body of Christ
   *]That the Church can bind or loose
   *]That the Church is the foundation of Truth
   *]That Christ would never leave the Church
   *]That the gates of hell would never prevail against the Church
   *]That the apostles passed on their authority through ordination
   *]That Christians were commanded to obey their leaders.
   *]The Sabbath was part of the Old Covenant
   *]The Old Covenant was abolished
   These leaders, with the authority to bind and loose have, with scriptural authority and the authority of ordination given us Sunday as the Lord’s Day. Due to our desire to follow the Bible in everything, and absent from a Biblical command to include the Sabbath as part of the New Covenant, then we are following exactly what God established both in person and in scripture.

 

[SDA2RC]

If anyone wants to believe in these teachings based on “additional” information outside of the scriptures, that is their pregrogative. This is perfectly fine as long as you do not claim that these teachings can be backed up by the scriptures. .

Lysimachus,
Not only is it our perogative, it is our duty. For scripture tells us that the Church is the foundation and pillar of all truth, not scripture. The scripture tells us to obey our church leaders. We follow God’s Word, which is why we must look to the Body of Christ, not just the creation of the body of Christ.

Isaiah answers quite clearly:

Isaiah 8:20 – "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

The law represents the Old Testament, and the testimony the New Testament. Anything that is taught outside of this clearly has “no light”.

Actually most scholars agree that the Law and Testimony are references to the two divisions of the Old Testament, often also called the law and the prophets.

Again, you are taking Isaiah 8:20 TOTALLY out of context.

Let’s look at Isaiah 8:20
“ISAIAH 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! if they speak not according to this word, surely there is no morning for them.”

Does this text, and the context of this passage prove Sola Scriptura? The simple answer is no.

The preceding verse gives us some insight as to what was being said; unfortunately this is seldom shown in Adventist writings.

“ISAIAH 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits and unto the wizards, that chirp and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? On behalf of the living `should they seek’ unto the dead?
ISAIAH 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they speak not according to this word, surely there is no morning for them.”

Now, taken with a little more context it is clear that this verse is actually a warning to those who would try to seek out mediums that they need to obey what they have already been told. Hardly a sound verse to use to prove that Scripture as we know it today (half of which was not even written then) should be our only rule of faith.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Excellent and straightforward posts, Brandon!

God bless you for putting up the facts for all to read.

Of course, don’t expect Ly or rstrats to respond to ANYTHING you have posted or I (and others) have asked.

That is not the style of mud slingers against the Church.

God bless you

Robert

 

[vtech]

famousjonnyk,

re: “I personally, attend Mass every Saturday afternoon. Does this make me a Sabbath keeper?”

Probably not. Leviticus 20:10 - “but the seventh day [sundown on the sixth day until sundown on the seventh day] is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.”

My brother Seventh Day Adventist, here is what our Holy Bible tells us and our brother catholics that think they can go outside of the Bible, I refer to 1 John,And hereby we do know that we know him,if we keep his commandments.He that saith I know him,and keepeth not his commandments is a Liar,and the truth is not in him.But whoso keepth his word,in him verily is the love of God perfected,hereby knowwe that we are in him.He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk,even as he walked.

 

[inthecloud]

Isaiah answers quite clearly:

Isaiah 8:20 – "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

The law represents the Old Testament, and the testimony the New Testament. Anything that is taught outside of this clearly has “no light”.

Have you realized that for the Jews the Law was only the Torah, not the whole OT and the testimony was the future Mishnah and the Talmud?
Jews do not believe in Sola Scriptura.

 

[Schabel]

Rstrats, next time please read everything I wrote before you respond. I never said that it WAS necessarily referring to the Lords Supper, I dont think that the Acts 20:7 proves anything either way… I will repeat what I said:

"This does not mean that all mention of breaking bread has to refer to the Eucharist, but you cannot simply rule it out because they also ate… The Catholic Church breaks bread, observes the Eucharist, EVERY DAY… as I believe the apostles did. We also eat everyday… (unless fasting of course) sometimes we eat (especially donuts) right after we break bread. You should try it "

Great posts, Brandon. I take it from your screen name that you were an SDA, correct?

Anyway, it’s pretty clear from scripture (not to mention all the ECF writings) that the term “the breaking of the bread” was an early euphemism for the Eucharistic celebration:

Ac 2:42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

I find it very difficult to believe that these newly converted Christians (converts on the day of Pentecost) would DEVOTE themselves to their regular meals!

Look at the order in which these things are written; it almost goes exactly along with the rites of Mass. Further, it reflects Justin Martyr’s description of the Mass.

 

[Schabel]

My brother Seventh Day Adventist, here is what our Holy Bible tells us and our brother catholics that think they can go outside of the Bible, I refer to 1 John,And hereby we do know that we know him,if we keep his commandments.He that saith I know him,and keepeth not his commandments is a Liar,and the truth is not in him.But whoso keepth his word,in him verily is the love of God perfected,hereby knowwe that we are in him.He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk,even as he walked.

Absolutely! That’s how we Catholics live, or at least how we TRY to live! It’s how our Church commands us to live!

Question for you: by “his commandments” who is the “his” referring to? Which commandments is this referring to?

Why do you equate this phrase with the Bible alone? ESPECIALLY since that very same Bible tells us that the pillar and foundation of the Truth is the Church?

 

[SDA2RC]

Great posts, Brandon. I take it from your screen name that you were an SDA, correct?

Anyway, it’s pretty clear from scripture (not to mention all the ECF writings) that the term “the breaking of the bread” was an early euphemism for the Eucharistic celebration:

Ac 2:42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

I find it very difficult to believe that these newly converted Christians (converts on the day of Pentecost) would DEVOTE themselves to their regular meals!

Look at the order in which these things are written; it almost goes exactly along with the rites of Mass. Further, it reflects Justin Martyr’s description of the Mass.

Thank you Schabel,
Yes, I was raised SDA, active in the faith, and converted just before I turned 30. This year will be 4 years! yah!!

 

[vtech]

Absolutely! That’s how we Catholics live, or at least how we TRY to live! It’s how our Church commands us to live!

Question for you: by “his commandments” who is the “his” referring to? Which commandments is this referring to?

Why do you equate this phrase with the Bible alone? ESPECIALLY since that very same Bible tells us that the pillar and foundation of the Truth is the Church?

Dear brother in Christ,the bible says,all scripture is given by inspiration of God"2Timothy 3:16…Prophecy came not by the will of man,but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the holy ghost"2Peter 1:21.The scripture cannot be broken"John10:35. Also my brother it is said,Jesus is the word and word became flesh.Now to the ten commandments,Fear God and keep his commandments,for this is mans whole duty"Ecclesiastes12:13,By the law is the knowledge of sin Romans3:20",I will put my laws in their mind andwrite them on their hearts Hebrews 8:10.Do not think that i have come to destroy the law,I did not come to destroy but to fulfill,till heaven and earth pass away,one jot or onetittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled"Matthew5:17,18.{For sin,breaking Gods law_I John:3:4] shall not have dominion over you,for you are not under the law,but under grace.What then?shall we sin [break the law] because we are not under the law but under grace?Certainly not…Romans 6:14,15…Do we then void the law through faith?Certainly not,On the contrary,we establish the law…Romans3:31…And now my brother in God,Here is the patience of the saints,here are those who keep the commandments of God,What commandments you ask?The law of God,The one he wrote with his own hand, the one that is forever and ever Amen.May God bless you in all things my dear brother.Please respond soon

 

[revelations]

Brothers and sisters, hello. The bible is not a legal document with rules, it is a spiritual tool that should be used to help you deal with problems. Read it prayerfully to find all the answers to all the problems in your life. Find comfort in Christ! Only we, as perverted sinful humans, could take such a wonderful comforting gift from the Lord and use it to beat each other’s heads in.

Let us rejoice that we have such a resource at our disposal! Can’t you see there are people sowing seeds of hate among us? Leaders who pervert the very gifts God gave us to cause us to rise up against our brethren and separate the union of Christ. We are so busy fighting each other evil has abounded in our part of the world… Sodomy, abortion, pornography, theft, dishonesty. And we are arguing ABOUT A DAY???

Let me put this mystery of Sunday to rest:

1. St. Peter was given the keys to the kingdom of God.
2. These keys were guarded by the apostolic succession of faithful followers, who were tasked with guarding the good news and keeping the faithful safe from heresy. (~215 guys between Pope Benedict and Jesus himself)
3. Whatever is loosed or bound by the possessor of these keys is loosed or bound in heaven. Period. Confession, church on Sunday, indulgences.

So yes, the Catholic church did further rule on matters pertaining to faith. It does this because it has the one authority that matters, the word of Jesus Christ. Yes, the Catholic church did change things. Yes 100% I will not deny that. Yes, there are some things in Christianity that aren’t in the bible at all. Does that mean they are untrue? No. Not at all.

The magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church has been interpreting scripture for more than 1600 years. The interpretation has been consistent. On the flip side, sola scriptura has been around for 500 years. For the first 1500, the only Christianity was catholic, and i truly believe the Holy Spirit did not decide to “wait around” until the reformation to get cracking on what he meant the first time he wrote the bible…

Let us pray for our separated brethren, who have been led astray by wolves disguised as sheep. Great heresy exists today, even so far as those proclaiming baptism is not necessary for salvation, only that you be “saved”. The souls of these people are in danger.

-revelations

 

[Lysimachus]

Hmmm…just came in here and found SDA2RC’s posts. I was wondering how long it would take before someone would bring about a good challenge for me. I’m always up for learning more.

I’ve been debating this topic for many years, and I’m all up to it. Give me till over the weekend to get a full-response made. My sword will not be sheathed.

 

[Lysimachus]

Excellent and straightforward posts, Brandon!

God bless you for putting up the facts for all to read.

Of course, don’t expect Ly or rstrats to respond to ANYTHING you have posted or I (and others) have asked.

That is not the style of mud slingers against the Church.

God bless you

Robert

You must be out of your mind to think I won’t take the time to respond. If I took the time to espond to DianJo, you don’t think I’ll take the time to respond to Brandon? What kind of Christian do you think I am?

 

[vtech]

Hmmm…just came in here and found SDA2RC’s posts. I was wondering how long it would take before someone would bring about a good challenge for me. I’m always up for learning more.

I’ve been debating this topic for many years, and I’m all up to it. Give me till over the weekend to get a full-response made. My sword will not be sheathed.

 

[vtech]

My dear brother in Jesus lysimachus this is vtech,my real name is mitch and im a Seventh Day Adventist.My e-mail is mrfountain@cox.net please bring your sword,your going to need it ha ha,may Jesus bless you always,your brother in Jesus vtech [mitch]…

 

[Lysimachus]

For those of you who rely on Dr. Samuel Bacchiocchi for “evidence” against the Sabbath keeping of the churches in the Dark Ages, here is a refutation against Dr. Samuel Bacchiocchi by Pastor J. Voerman:

ktfministry.org/resources/articles/VJ_En_TheWaldenses.pdf

I will still continue with my full response though. Like I said, give me over the weekend.