Seventh-day Adventist's Sabbath and Catholic's Sunday

[Pythons]

The same human nature Adam had before or after the fall?

Minus concupiscence so that would be prior…
…Unless you subscribe to Jesus being born as the following.

Psalm 51,5 & Job 14,4

Myself, I tend to favor the Catholic view that Jesus was Holy.

Anne88:

Jesus was fully God when He was here on earth, but His divinity was covered with humanity.

Don’t get what you are saying here, “covered with humanity”…
…Wise men from the east knew He was something very special.
…As a baby laying in a manger.

Anne88:

He had nothing more or less special than we - except His temptations were greater, because like you say, He was God, and could choose whether to continue on in the plan of salvation or not (as was His struggle in the Garden of Gethsemene before His crucifixion)

I never said “He could choose” - Christ ETERNALLY did the Will of the Father…
…That’s why He came in the first place because THAT was the Father’s will.
…It’s not like He begged to take a crack at it.

Anne88:

We believe that Jesus had the same nature as Adam before Adam sinned

Ok, good so far.

Anne88:

Like Adam, He still had a choice, but because He lived His life in complete surrender of Himself to God, then God’s will (which was Jesus’ will from the beginning) was worked out in Jesus the Man.

God’s Will was “worked out” in Jesus however it’s time for you to admit that the outcome of God’s Will…
…Was foretold by the Prophets, by God the Father, God the Son & God the Holy Spirit most explicitly.
…And given that Scripture says God knows the end from the beginning - well, God told us exactly what the end would be.

Anne88:

When we accept Jesus as our Saviour, we too can learn to live a life of complete surrender to God, then God’s will is worked out in our life/becomes our will. This is how Jesus is our example (as well as our Redeemer). He doesn’t save us in our sins, but from our sins and He even showed us how!

We are NOT God Anne88 and while it’s a mark to shoot for it isn’t correct or close to Orthodox to suggest…
…That “we too can learn to live a life of complete surrender to God”.
…We could have had a 100 billion lifetimes to try and get this right.
…We would fail each time.

There is and was only one Christ.

Anne88:

The second death, is eternal separation from God because of our unconfessed/unrepented sins (yes it will, at the end of the millennium, involve a lake of fire that burns until all is consumed). Because Jesus never sinned, but took our sins, He was able to taste that death for us and yet be resurrected because He was perfect(God).

Jesus “tasted” separation from God?
…Jesus always was and Eternally is God so what you said makes zero sense.
…Jesus was never separated from God.

Anne88:

Have you ever read all the entire of some of EGWs books? The important ones like Desire of Ages? or have just read paragraphs of her writings taken randomly from here and there that have been twisted and forced to say what they don’t?

I’ve read many of them myself and not to brag but probably know my way around the GC Archives…
…Better than most SDA’s - in fact what I’ve learned has been from my own Study.
…In case you missed it us Catholics are not viewed the best by most Protestants.
…I do my own research.

Anne88:

The Desire of Ages is the most beautiful (non-biblical) book I have ever read on the Life of Christ. It drove me back to the Bible to read the Gospels over and over again (and the prophecies of Christ in the OT) and just marvel and wonder at the plan of salvation and the unmeasurable depth, width and height of the love of God for wicked, sinful mankind… for even someone like me!

It unfortunately has some very heretical teachings in it…
…Claiming Jesus could have sinned and lost His salvation.
…Is irreconcilable with the Doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[Anne88]

God’s Will was “worked out” in Jesus however it’s time for you to admit that the outcome of God’s Will…
…Was foretold by the Prophets, by God the Father, God the Son & God the Holy Spirit most explicitly.
…And given that Scripture says God knows the end from the beginning - well, God told us exactly what the end would be.

I never said it wasn’t - God has a will for each of us and for the earth too. That said, i don’t believe in predistination in the sense that we have no choice. I’m terribly sorry, I’ve never had the talent of eloquence in writing or speaking for that matter, and I can’t seem to write clearly enough for you to understand what I mean.

We are NOT God Anne88 and while it’s a mark to shoot for it isn’t correct or close to Orthodox to suggest…
…That “we too can learn to live a life of complete surrender to God”.
…We could have had a 100 billion lifetimes to try and get this right.
…We would fail each time.

No we are not God. I never said we were. But God wants us to live like Jesus did. He says in Mat_5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. and again in
2Ti_3:16,17 that Scripture is given to us to teach us in all things, “That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” He showed us, in the life of Jesus, that by surrendering our will to God, He can work in us to bring His eternal will for us to pass. It is all by His strength, His Spirit, His power, not by me trying to be perfect or do good.

So because God said He could do it in and through us, then I believe it.

I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree - which is what you’d expect I guess… after all, if our beliefs were the same, then we’d be members of the same church.
God bless.

 

[Pythons]

No we are not God. I never said we were. But God wants us to live like Jesus did.

Agreed, no argument there.

Anne88:

He says in Mat_5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. and again in 2Ti_3:16,17 that Scripture is given to us to teach us in all things, “That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” He showed us, in the life of Jesus, that by surrendering our will to God, He can work in us to bring His eternal will for us to pass. It is all by His strength, His Spirit, His power, not by me trying to be perfect or do good.

Again, agreed, I’m with ya!

Anne88:

So because God said He could do it in and through us, then I believe it.

I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree - which is what you’d expect I guess… after all, if our beliefs were the same, then we’d be members of the same church.
God bless.

To be honest with you I don’t have a beef with SDA’s always talking about the Sabbath…
…It really doesn’t bother me about their soul sleeping doctrine either, it’s a nice thought.
…My problem is SDA’s claiming Jesus is Michael the archangel & Jesus could a sinned and lost His Salvation.

Those two are the really bad teachings.

 

[spina1953]

I following these posts on this thread, the notion or idea that Jesus could have sinned, that it was a real possibility does not make any sense. Jesus is fully Divine and also fully human. Now, the human nature of Christ was and is in union with the Divine in such a way that Jesus could not sin. If Jesus could sin then God would not have existed because God in the Trinity; Father, Son and Holy Spirit while distinct are one. What this means is that if God in either the Father, Son, or the Holy Spirit could sin that God could not exist because to do so would mean that God in either Father Son and Holy Spirit would be denying Himself and if that were so that nothing would be in existance, no Humans, no universe etc… God connot deny Himself nor coulod the Son of God made Man nor the Holy Spirit.

 

[Pythons]

I following these posts on this thread, the notion or idea that Jesus could have sinned, that it was a real possibility does not make any sense. Jesus is fully Divine and also fully human. Now, the human nature of Christ was and is in union with the Divine in such a way that Jesus could not sin. If Jesus could sin then God would not have existed because God in the Trinity; Father, Son and Holy Spirit while distinct are one. What this means is that if God in either the Father, Son, or the Holy Spirit could sin that God could not exist because to do so would mean that God in either Father Son and Holy Spirit would be denying Himself and if that were so that nothing would be in existance, no Humans, no universe etc… God connot deny Himself nor coulod the Son of God made Man nor the Holy Spirit.

Exactly as our Creed documents, which systematize Scripture clearly say…
…The question I have for Adventists: JW’s, SDA’s, Christadelphians & WWCOG.
…Is why is this said to be such a vital Doctrine?

Other than rank Arianism?

Signs of the Time April 2, 1940
**It is VITAL for every Christian ** TO KNOW that Jesus Christ MIGHT have sinned. The Master was not beyond the clutches of temptation. The Heaven-sent Gift could have been eternally lost and the doom of humanity would have been eternally sealed. Jesus Christ knew the pull of evil. “In that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted.”

Signs of the Times Prophetic weekly 1933, Volume 60 No. 4
TO RESTORE MEN
God’s plan of salvation was to reclaim a lost, bewildered world. Sin had degraded men, until vice had become a science and every type of evil was incorporated into the mind of man. When the heathen world had run its course of iniquity, when paganism and idolatry had engrossed the world, God sent forth His Son according to the plan, to restore men’s rightful heritage as “sons of God.” Jesus Christ took upon Himself the weakness, the tendencies, toward sin, that He might prove Himself a brother to His fellow men. His divine glory was hidden in humanity. “He took on Him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.” Hebrews 2:16, 17. There was the danger of eternal loss in the plan. Jesus Christ MIGHT have sinned and the human race been lost. For He was tempted. He could have sinned!

The Sabbath teaching is in my view a harmless one and while SDA’s talk about the Sabbath every chance they get…
…That Doctrine is actually a “loss leader” to get folks in so they can ply them with this creature Christ Doctrine.
…In my view that’s the real danger - once they have thrown the wet blanket of the Sabbath over a person.
…They quickly move on to their “real agenda” - which is creature Christ Doctrine.

 

[spina1953]

Exactly as our Creed documents, which systematize Scripture clearly say…
…The question I have for Adventists: JW’s, SDA’s, Christadelphians & WWCOG.
…Is why is this said to be such a vital Doctrine?

Other than rank Arianism?

Signs of the Time April 2, 1940
**It is VITAL for every Christian ** TO KNOW that Jesus Christ MIGHT have sinned. The Master was not beyond the clutches of temptation. The Heaven-sent Gift could have been eternally lost and the doom of humanity would have been eternally sealed. Jesus Christ knew the pull of evil. “In that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted.”
I agree with you. My point is that " if there was a the danger of enernal loss in the plan, Jesus Christ might have sinned and the human race been lost" then there would be no existance since then God would not exist. One cannot have it both ways. If Christ could sin then all of the Churches teaching that were given to the Apostles from Jesus Himself are false. This is the major problem with private revelations and interpretation based on those types of private revelations. How is one to know if they are even true, only because someone says it is? If that is so, then anyone can say anyting and say it is true and there is no one to refute it, since no one would know if it were false or true. Since it is a private revelatiion and interpretation. So in my mind it is unbibical as well unsound teaching that Jesus could sin.

Signs of the Times Prophetic weekly 1933, Volume 60 No. 4
TO RESTORE MEN
God’s plan of salvation was to reclaim a lost, bewildered world. Sin had degraded men, until vice had become a science and every type of evil was incorporated into the mind of man. When the heathen world had run its course of iniquity, when paganism and idolatry had engrossed the world, God sent forth His Son according to the plan, to restore men’s rightful heritage as “sons of God.” Jesus Christ took upon Himself the weakness, the tendencies, toward sin, that He might prove Himself a brother to His fellow men. His divine glory was hidden in humanity. “He took on Him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.” Hebrews 2:16, 17. There was the danger of eternal loss in the plan. Jesus Christ MIGHT have sinned and the human race been lost. For He was tempted. He could have sinned!

The Sabbath teaching is in my view a harmless one and while SDA’s talk about the Sabbath every chance they get…
…That Doctrine is actually a “loss leader” to get folks in so they can ply them with this creature Christ Doctrine.
…In my view that’s the real danger - once they have thrown the wet blanket of the Sabbath over a person.
…They quickly move on to their “real agenda” - which is creature Christ Doctrine.

 

[spina1953]

Exactly as our Creed documents, which systematize Scripture clearly say…
…The question I have for Adventists: JW’s, SDA’s, Christadelphians & WWCOG.
…Is why is this said to be such a vital Doctrine?

Other than rank Arianism?

Signs of the Time April 2, 1940
**It is VITAL for every Christian ** TO KNOW that Jesus Christ MIGHT have sinned. The Master was not beyond the clutches of temptation. The Heaven-sent Gift could have been eternally lost and the doom of humanity would have been eternally sealed. Jesus Christ knew the pull of evil. “In that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted.”
I agree with you. My point is that " if there was a the danger of enernal loss in the plan, Jesus Christ might have sinned and the human race been lost" then there would be no existance since then God would not exist. One cannot have it both ways. If Christ could sin then all of the Churches teaching that were given to the Apostles from Jesus Himself are false. This is the major problem with private revelations and interpretation based on those types of private revelations. How is one to know if they are even true, only because someone says it is? If that is so, then anyone can say anyting and say it is true and there is no one to refute it, since no one would know if it were false or true. Since it is a private revelatiion and interpretation. So in my mind it is unbibical as well unsound teaching that Jesus could sin.

Signs of the Times Prophetic weekly 1933, Volume 60 No. 4
TO RESTORE MEN
God’s plan of salvation was to reclaim a lost, bewildered world. Sin had degraded men, until vice had become a science and every type of evil was incorporated into the mind of man. When the heathen world had run its course of iniquity, when paganism and idolatry had engrossed the world, God sent forth His Son according to the plan, to restore men’s rightful heritage as “sons of God.” Jesus Christ took upon Himself the weakness, the tendencies, toward sin, that He might prove Himself a brother to His fellow men. His divine glory was hidden in humanity. “He took on Him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.” Hebrews 2:16, 17. There was the danger of eternal loss in the plan. Jesus Christ MIGHT have sinned and the human race been lost. For He was tempted. He could have sinned!

The Sabbath teaching is in my view a harmless one and while SDA’s talk about the Sabbath every chance they get…
…That Doctrine is actually a “loss leader” to get folks in so they can ply them with this creature Christ Doctrine.
…In my view that’s the real danger - once they have thrown the wet blanket of the Sabbath over a person.
…They quickly move on to their “real agenda” - which is creature Christ Doctrine.

 

[Pythons]

Spina1953:

I agree with you. My point is that " if there was a the danger of enernal loss in the plan, Jesus Christ might have sinned and the human race been lost" then there would be no existance since then God would not exist. One cannot have it both ways. If Christ could sin then all of the Churches teaching that were given to the Apostles from Jesus Himself are false. This is the major problem with private revelations and interpretation based on those types of private revelations. How is one to know if they are even true, only because someone says it is? If that is so, then anyone can say anyting and say it is true and there is no one to refute it, since no one would know if it were false or true. Since it is a private revelatiion and interpretation. So in my mind it is unbibical as well unsound teaching that Jesus could sin.

Exactly! You hit the nail on the head big time there!
…Excellent point.

 

[spina1953]

Exactly! You hit the nail on the head big time there!
…Excellent point.

Hi Pythons: Thanks! I think you have made excellent points also.!

 

[Pythons]

Hi Pythons: Thanks! I think you have made excellent points also.!

There indeed seems to be a very large quantity of strange and horrific doctrines there doesn’t it.

A) Christ was Michael the archangel who prior to the Incarnation existed next to Lucifer the archangel.

B) Christ could have sinned and lost His salvation - been annihilated by God eternally.

C) The above ^ is stated to be required knowledge for SDA’s.

D) God the Father and Lucifer have bodies of flesh complete with rectums and so did Jesus prior to Incarnation.

E) Humanity is to go to Church on Saturday because it’s the Sabbath or be lost.

F) Soul sleep ( which they claim Christ participated in for three days )

G) When Jesus “woke up” at His Resurrection He wasn’t sure if God accepted His sacrifice or not - until later.

H) Jesus is now splattering His literal blood in a literal temple in heaven to forgive sins.

I) Ellen White went on an actual star trek and visited with alien life forms on other planets.

I could go on but WOW!

This is what I mean when I say that their Sabbath teachings are not really the problem…
…That’s what they rub onto the victims to soften em up - then it’s onto those other.
…“Vital Doctrines”.

The most stunning thing to me is when you bring these thing up to them they initially deny them…
…Claiming they have never heard of them, don’t believe it, etc, etc.
…Then when you quote Ellen White or their official publications they then will argue for the validity of those teachings.

It’s just really weird!

 

[spina1953]

There indeed seems to be a very large quantity of strange and horrific doctrines there doesn’t it.

A) Christ was Michael the archangel who prior to the Incarnation existed next to Lucifer the archangel.

B) Christ could have sinned and lost His salvation - been annihilated by God eternally.

C) The above ^ is stated to be required knowledge for SDA’s.

D) God the Father and Lucifer have bodies of flesh complete with rectums and so did Jesus prior to Incarnation.

E) Humanity is to go to Church on Saturday because it’s the Sabbath or be lost.

F) Soul sleep ( which they claim Christ participated in for three days )

G) When Jesus “woke up” at His Resurrection He wasn’t sure if God accepted His sacrifice or not - until later.

H) Jesus is now splattering His literal blood in a literal temple in heaven to forgive sins.

I) Ellen White went on an actual star trek and visited with alien life forms on other planets.

I could go on but WOW!

This is what I mean when I say that their Sabbath teachings are not really the problem…
…That’s what they rub onto the victims to soften em up - then it’s onto those other.
…“Vital Doctrines”.

The most stunning thing to me is when you bring these thing up to them they initially deny them…
…Claiming they have never heard of them, don’t believe it, etc, etc.
…Then when you quote Ellen White or their official publications they then will argue for the validity of those teachings.

It’s just really weird!

Hi Pythons: I agree and the info you provided seems to me from I have been reading and from those of that Church appear to profess. I have also noticed that the Mormans and JW have elders who recieve divine revelations to which they pass on to their members who in turn have to believe or they are shuned I guess what gets me is how anyone can interprete in they way they do. I do not mean this in any disrespectful way or manor, it just seems to me to go against accepted thinking and reasoning. I do know that there are those who believe something that is true yet false and things they believe false yet are true. in other words people will believe what they want to believe even when the truth stares them in the face. The only real way for Catholic’s to dismiss all these wild claims is to be informed and knowledgable about their Catholic faith.

 

[Pythons]

Hi Pythons: I agree and the info you provided seems to me from I have been reading and from those of that Church appear to profess. I have also noticed that the Mormans and JW have elders who recieve divine revelations to which they pass on to their members who in turn have to believe or they are shuned I guess what gets me is how anyone can interprete in they way they do. I do not mean this in any disrespectful way or manor, it just seems to me to go against accepted thinking and reasoning. I do know that there are those who believe something that is true yet false and things they believe false yet are true. in other words people will believe what they want to believe even when the truth stares them in the face. The only real way for Catholic’s to dismiss all these wild claims is to be informed and knowledgable about their Catholic faith.

Absolutely agree with you here - a basic understanding of the basics would have the average person…
…Run away as fast as they could from bizarre teachings such as this.
…Unfortunately religious flim-flam leaders such as those you mentioned seem really smart to the uneducated.

These types of folks will often do a few"drive by" posts at a forum to see what they can get away with…
…If the pickings are easy they will come in and see if they can get any sheep.
…It’s sad that so many Catholics get led astray by these tactics.

 

[Anne88]

A) Christ was Michael the archangel who prior to the Incarnation existed next to Lucifer the archangel.

I just want to address this one for now.

Yes Jesus was known as Michael the archangel prior to the incarnation. Michael - the commander of the angels. But not that He was an angel, but the commander of the angels (whom He created). and on the lower rank of command was the created being Lucifer who was, after Jesus, head over the angelic hosts (like a chain of command).
Jesus was always the “only begotton of the Father” that is the only One who is like God.

If you want quotes from EGW to support the SDAs believe this, then here:

" The King of the universe summoned the heavenly hosts before Him, that in their presence He might set forth the true position of His Son and show the relation He sustained to all created beings. The Son of God shared the Father’s throne, and the glory of the eternal, self-existent One encircled both. About the throne gathered the holy angels, a vast, unnumbered throng–“ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands” (Revelation 5:11.), the most exalted angels, as ministers and subjects, rejoicing in the light that fell upon them from the presence of the Deity. Before the assembled inhabitants of heaven the King declared that none but Christ, the Only Begotten of God, could fully enter into His purposes, and to Him it was committed to execute the mighty counsels of His will. The Son of God had wrought the Father’s will in the creation of all the hosts of heaven; and to Him, as well as to God, their homage and allegiance were due. Christ was still to exercise divine power, in the creation of the earth and its inhabitants. But in all this He would not seek power or exaltation for Himself contrary to God’s plan, but would exalt the Father’s glory and execute His purposes of beneficence and love. {PP 36.2}
The angels joyfully acknowledged the supremacy of Christ, and prostrating themselves before Him, poured out their love and adoration." ~ Patriachs and Prophets Ch1 p36.2

“Jesus was the majesty of heaven, the beloved commander of the angels, who delighted to do His pleasure. He was one with God, “in the bosom of the Father” (John 1:18), yet He thought it not a thing to be desired to be equal with God while man was lost in sin and misery. He stepped down from His throne, He left His crown and royal scepter, and clothed His divinity with humanity. He humbled Himself even to the death of the cross, that man might be exalted to a seat with Him upon His throne. In Him we have a complete offering, an infinite sacrifice, a mighty Saviour, who is able to save unto the uttermost all that come unto God by Him. In love He comes to reveal the Father, to reconcile man to God, to make him a new creature renewed after the image of Him who created him.” ~ God’s Amazing Grace p160.4

Please, if you’re going to say what SDAs believe, at least speak truthfully.

 

[Pythons]

I just want to address this one for now.

Yes Jesus was known as Michael the archangel prior to the incarnation.

Along with Lucifer ‘the archangel’ & multiple other archangels.

Ellen White, Signs of the Times Sept 14, 1882 paragraph 9
Rebellion originated with Satan. Notwithstanding the exalted position which he occupied among the heavenly host, he became dissatisfied because he was not accorded supreme honor. Hence he questioned God’s purposes and impugned his justice. He bent all his powers to allure the angels from their allegiance. The fact that he was an archangel, glorious and powerful, enabled him to exert a mighty influence. His complaints against God’s government, at first met with no favor; yet being urged again and again, they were finally accepted by those who had before been loyal and happy subjects of the King of Heaven

So, Lucifer was also an archangel…
…And also,

Ellen White, Review Herald January 14, 1909
We are to be partakers of knowledge. As I have seen pictures representing Satan coming to Christ in the wilderness of temptation in the form of a hideous monster, I have thought, How little the artists knew of the Bible! Before his fall, Satan WAS, next to CHRIST, the highest ANGEL in heaven".

If Ellen would have wanted to say this to indicate what you are saying…
…She would have said Satan “WAS” the highest angel in heaven.
…That isn’t what she said however - & this ( unfortunately ) ,wasn’t the only place she said it.

Anne88:

Michael - the commander of the angels. But not that He was an angel, but the commander of the angels (whom He created). and on the lower rank of command was the created being Lucifer who was, after Jesus, head over the angelic hosts (like a chain of command).
Jesus was always the “only begotton of the Father” that is the only One who is like God.

I can’t count the times I’ve heard Jehovah’s Witnesses and SDA’s say this…
…The name Michael means: Who is Like God?
…Not **‘who is like God’ **as if Michael was like God!

Call a Rabbi, refer to Strong’s or something but please don’t say that’s what it means.

Anne88:

If you want quotes from EGW to support the SDAs believe this, then here:

Let’s look at it.
Anne88 quotes Ellen White:

The King of the universe summoned the heavenly hosts before Him, that in their presence He might set forth the true position of His Son and show the relation He sustained to all created beings. The Son of God shared the Father’s throne, and the glory of **the eternal, self-existent One **encircled both.

Ok, so the “glory” of the eternal self-existent ONE encircled both the ONE that the glory was coming from…
…AND also encircled someone else who evidently WASN’T considered to be eternal and “self-existent”.
…Was this “other” entity Michael the archangel by chance?
continued Ellen White quote:

About the throne gathered the holy angels, a vast, unnumbered throng–“ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands” (Revelation 5:11.), the most exalted angels, as ministers and subjects, **rejoicing in the light **that fell upon them FROM the presence of the Deity.

We already know from the 1st quote that the light ( AKA Glory ) from the real God encircled both God and Michael the archangel…
…So “ALL THE LIGHT” naturally is being produced by “the Deity”.
…Who has already been identified specifically by Ellen to be ‘The Father’.

Anne88:

Before the assembled inhabitants of heaven **the King **declared that none but Christ, the Only Begotten of God, could fully enter into His purposes, and to Him it was committed to execute the mighty counsels of His will.

This either throws out the Holy Spirit ( because He evidently couldn’t fully enter into the counsels )…
…Or shows that the Holy Spirit was of a lesser rank than Lucifer.
…Because remember NEXT TO CHRIST Lucifer was identified as the highest angel in heaven.

The crux of the matter however is that because SDA’s believed the Father was a flesh and blood hominid God & the Holy Spirit wasn’t…
…Equated to the SDA’s claiming the Holy Spirit was like a gas expulsion OF THE FATHER.
…I.E. the Holy Spirit was like a flavor of flatulence from the Father.
…And yes I have quotes from the SDA archive to back this up.

Anne88:

The Son of God had wrought the Father’s will in the creation of all the hosts of heaven; and to Him, as well as to God, their homage and allegiance were due. Christ was still to exercise divine power, in the creation of the earth and its inhabitants. But in all this He would not seek power or exaltation for Himself contrary to God’s plan, but would exalt the Father’s glory and execute His purposes of beneficence and love. {PP 36.2}
The angels joyfully acknowledged the supremacy of Christ, and prostrating themselves before Him, poured out their love and adoration." ~ Patriachs and Prophets Ch1 p36.2

So the angels Christ actually created had to be told that He was the one who created them…
…I’m sorry Anne, that doesn’t work for me.

Anne88:

Please, if you’re going to say what SDAs believe, at least speak truthfully.

Please realize that I don’t screw around with this stuff & do “speak truthfully”…
…Perhaps you would care to challenge me on what I said about the SDA Holy Spirit belief?

 

[Anne88]

Please realize that I don’t screw around with this stuff & do “speak truthfully”…
…Perhaps you would care to challenge me on what I said about the SDA Holy Spirit belief?

You’re very tenacious, and good at twisting words, I’ll give you that.
May Truth always be your true goal.
God bless

 

[Pythons]

You’re very tenacious, and good at twisting words, I’ll give you that.
May Truth always be your true goal.
God bless

The quotes are "word for word’ and I believe anyone who has even the most basic understanding of the Doctrine of the Trinity…
…Would come to the same conclusion I had - perhaps there is even more there that I missed.
…In any event I appreciate you sounding off about SDA Dogma - that’s what this forum is for.

You’ve been very nice to talk with and I hope you stick around.

God Bless you and yours Anne88

 

[spina1953]

Anne88: I understand that what you have been posting is your belief and I have no problem with that. However, I fail to understand how Jesus can both be Michael the archangel and also the only begotten Son of God as that does not make any sense to me. One can’t have it both ways; either Jesus is one or the other, but not both, as, if He was an archahgel then He was created, and if He is the only begotten Son of God, then He was uncreated, and was with the Father in eternity having no beginning. All this really suggests to me is that the basis for SDA’s beliefs are based on what Ellen White’s personal private revelations and not on sound understanding of Scritpure in my humble opinion.

 

[Nicea325]

Agreed, no argument there.

Again, agreed, I’m with ya!

To be honest with you I don’t have a beef with SDA’s always talking about the Sabbath…
…It really doesn’t bother me about their soul sleeping doctrine either, it’s a nice thought.
…My problem is SDA’s claiming Jesus is Michael the archangel & Jesus could a sinned and lost His Salvation.
Those two are the really bad teachings.

Exactly! If Jesus is Michael the archangel,that would make him a creature…not God! ALL angels at all choirs were created…Jesus IS not created. Where do people come up with such kooky ideas?

 

[Pythons]

Exactly! If Jesus is Michael the archangel,that would make him a creature…not God! ALL angels at all choirs were created…Jesus IS not created. Where do people come up with such kooky ideas?

An educated guess would be that the raw power Ellen White holds over Seventh Day Adventists in what they believe…
…Usurps ANYTHING taught in the Bible - to them it’s like a special secret or Gnostic knowledge.
…In this way the SDA’s believe they have the true light which actually prevents them from seeing what IS the true light.

An Example.

William Miller ( a Baptist Pastor ) claimed he had calculated, from the Bible, the date of the 2nd Coming of Christ…
…When Christ didn’t come back on the 1st predicted date, or the second set date OR the 3rd set date.
…Miller admitted his error and suggested the people to return to their Churches.

Everyone who had a church to return to DID leaving ONLY the anti-Trinitarians…
…Which soon started to squabble over other Doctrines and split into factions.
…The SDA’s went off in one direction and the other groups went theirs.

William Miller’s ONLY MESSAGE was to repent because Jesus was Coming on the certain date…
…That was it - there was NO OTHER MESSAGE whatsoever!
…A person would have to judge Miller’s message on what it WAS.
…And all it was - was to Repent because Jesus is coming on x, y, then Z!

The SDA’s accepted that Ellen White was a prophet so when she told the Adventists who accepted her…
…That the reason so many people scoffed at Miller for saying that he knew the date for Christ’s return.
…Was because those people hated Jesus and cherished their sins!

If a person accepts THAT as logical then the sky is the limit as to what else they will accept…
…Christ as Michael the archangel, The Father and Lucifer having rectums, etc.
…It becomes a clown show after that.

Still though - the SDA’s have done the world much good through their medical hospitals and treatment of the poor in other countries…
…I happen to be a huge fan of Dr. Ben Carson who I believe is a Seventh-day Adventist.
…In his case with being one of the top brain surgeons in the county he wouldn’t have had much time to study Scripture and History.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

As to the Sabbath question. There are many places in Acts where Paul is teaching and preaching and worshiping God in the churches on the Sabbath Day - the 7th day - as was his custom. (Acts 13:14,42,44; 17:2; 18:4) And even one Sabbath at a river where "prayer was made - worship - Acts 16:13) As to Paul meeting on the first day (as in the case where he was leaving the next day and wished to encourage the brethren)

Hi Anne88,

Thank you for responding to this thread! I sincerely appreciate your spirit in your posts! There appear to be many topics being discussed, but I want to continue to address the sabbath/sunday topic with which I began. So let’s begin here.

It was not Paul’s purpose, according to the Bible, to worship with the Jews on the sabbath. His purpose was to proclaim the Gospel to the unbelieving Jews and gentiles who were gathered in the synagogues on the sabbath.

There are only 3 places in the Bible where Paul went into a synagogue after his conversion and 1 place where he found Jews praying along the river on the sabbath.

The 3 places where we find Paul going into a synagogue are as follows:

Acts 13
Acts 17
Acts 18

The 1 place where Paul talked with Jews praying by the river on the sabbath is as follows:

Acts 16

We must, in all honesty, look at the context in the Bible for Paul’s purpose. It was not to worship with other Christians on the sabbath, it was to preach the Gospel and convert the non-Christian unbelieving Jews.

Here is what is absent from SDA prophecy seminars, TV shows, Bible studies, and sermons, when citing these chapters:

***Acts 13:4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleu′cia; and from there they sailed to Cyprus. 5 When they arrived at Sal′amis, they proclaimed the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews.

Acts 13:42 As they went out, the people begged that these things might be told them the next sabbath. 43 And when the meeting of the synagogue broke up, many Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who spoke to them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.

Acts 13:44 The next sabbath almost the whole city gathered together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with jealousy, and contradicted what was spoken by Paul, and reviled him.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. 49 And the word of the Lord spread throughout all the region. 50 But the Jews incited the devout women of high standing and the leading men of the city, and stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district. 51 But they shook off the dust from their feet against them, and went to Ico′nium.***

They went to the synagogues of the Jews, not Christians verse 5. The gentiles here were converts to Judaism, not Christianity verse 43. The non-believing Jews, those not converted by Paul’s preaching were jealous and contradicted and reviled Paul verse 45…hardly the reaction of Christians. The Gentiles who converted were glad verse 48. The non-believing Jews from the synagogue incited persecution against Paul and Barnabas and drove them out of the district verse 50…hardly the actions of believing Christians gathered together and worshipping Jesus on the sabbath. Paul and Barnabas shook the dust off of their feet against these people and left verse 51…hardly a reaction Paul would have with believer in Jesus Christ.

***Acts 16:13 and on the sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer; and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together.

Acts 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyati′ra, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God…

Acts 16:14…The Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul. 15 And when she was baptized, with her household,***

They found these women on the sabbath day but they were not believers in Jesus Christ. But after Paul talked with her she converted and was baptized along with her household verses 14 and 15. If these were Christians meeting on the sabbath, why did Paul speak to them to convert them?

(continued to next post)