Seventh Day Adventists say Catholics changed...

[Cristian_B]

And what part of the phrase “fulfilled the OT” do SDA not comprehend?

Fulfilled means kept, not ended.

If that is the case,then why wondering why Jesus did not resurrect on Saturday,instead of Sunday?

He kept the Sabbath even in His grave. He rested on the Sabbath (in His grave), and that’s why He didn’t resurrect on that day.

Ask your SDA friend if they practice circumcision too? Do they follow the OT dietary laws too?

We do follow the dietary laws and we do practice the biblical circumcision.

BTW: In case your friend did not know,Saturday was also the day of worship for the pagan god Saturn…where we get SATURDAY…

And? It was sanctified by God. Don’t call common what God sanctified.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

But doesn’t the Catholic version of the 10 Commandments change the command, “Keep holy the sabbath day” to “Keep holy the Lord’s Day”??? Isn’t that, in essence, switching the days?

Not trying to be difficult. The Sabbath/Lord’s Day issue is one that I have pondered for some time.

Well, not exactly. The commandment to keep holy the sabbath is honored in the keeping of the Lord’s Day. As discussed in Acts, Christians are not bound by the Mosaic laws; hence the keeping of a jewish sabbath is not required.

Moreover, Christ came to fulfill the law, and it is He who instituted the Eucharist and rose on the first day of the week. So the promises of the sabbath are fulfilled on the Lord’s Day. We, as christians, honor the fulfillment of those promises and honor and keep holy the sabbath in that way. The commandments do not say “go to Church on Saturday.” The command is to keep the sabbath holy, and Catholics do so by honoring the fullfilment of the sabbath and keeping the Lord’s Day as our day of obligation for community worship. Nothing the Church does compels people to dishonor the sabbath. However, we are not compelled to maintain the Mosaic practices associated with it. Do you see the distinction. It is SDA members who read quite a bit too much into the commandment, and fail to consider the fullness of what the scriptures and Tradition have taught about this issue.

Peace,
Robert

 

[T_More]

He kept the Sabbath even in His grave. He rested on the Sabbath (in His grave), and that’s why He didn’t resurrect on that day.

Christ was not resting, he was preaching. See 1 Peter 3.

 

[Texasgringo70]

I get this a lot. My mother-in-law is a member of a “Church of God, 7th Day”. They are like an off shoot of SDA. It is very small, so I had a hard time figuring them out. I don’t remember how I learned this, but when I did it provided me with all the faith I needed to not be intimidated by their arguments. Here it is, but read the following passage first:

Hebrews 4:4For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “And on the seventh day God rested from all his work.” 5And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”

6It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.” 8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

Basically my understanding of the above is that Christ did not abolish the Sabbath, just as He said He didn’t. What He did in fulfilling the law was to make the Sabbath rest “today” (v. 7). In other words in stead of the Sabbath being only one day a week He made the Sabbath every day of the week. We are to continually “rest” in Him and His completed work. He doesn’t want just one day a week, He wants us every day of the week. Our whole lives are to be dedicated to him and his perfect law of liberty (James 1:25) will make us free indeed. If we are already observing the Sabbath in out hearts every day, outward observance of the Sabbath one one day a week is rather shallow and merely shadow of the fulfilled law.

There is nothing wrong with observing the Sabbath only once a week, but neither is it going to help you much if you are hoping that will allow you to be more acceptable to God.

 

[Texasgringo70]

Oh, I forgot to mention, don’t bother trying to argue this with a SDA. They will only get excited and you will only strain the relationship. If you press them they will tell you that observance of the OT laws is just something they enjoy doing and that salvation does not ride on it. If you get to that point to us on the outside the answer would be then why bother with all this? They will not normally make that jump of logic. I have not yet figured out what do next. My mother-in-law and I just agree to disagree and not let our disagreements cause us to be disagreeable. I am at peace and if she ever becomes open about discussing it she knows I can help her out.

 

[Poco]

See my post #4. The Catholic Church did not change the sabbath.

God bless!

 

[Cristian_B]

Christ was not resting, he was preaching. See 1 Peter 3.

Okay. Let’s look at this passage* in context*.For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
(1 Peter 3:18-22 KJV)
Now let’s begin with the beginning.1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Christ suffered for our sins, according to the prophecy, so that He may bring us before God. He died (put to death in the flesh) but He was later “quickened by the spirit”. He was revived by the Spirit (i.e.: Holy Ghost), in other words resurrected. And then comes the passage:1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
First, it is important to note the word “preach” there. It is G2784 “kērussō”.G2784
κηρύσσω
kērussō
kay-roos’-so
Of uncertain affinity; to herald (as a public crier), especially divine truth (the gospel): - preach (-er), proclaim, publish.
As you see, it does not necessarily mean the preaching of the Gospel but just proclaiming or publishing. The chronology is also important. When does this proclaiming happen? According to Scriptures after being “quickened by the Spirit” which means resurrect. So after he resurrected He went proclaiming ot the spirits in prison.

Who are these spirits? The spirits in prison refers not to people, but fallen angels and authorities and powers who are also spoken of as being chained: Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Col 2:15 And [by His resurrection] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them [fallen angels] in it.
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
…
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
2 Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
1 Peter 3:20 and 21 speak of Noah’s experience with the flood, and Christ’s death and resurrection, as types of baptism, in which the sinner can gain, and proclaim, victory over sin and death: 1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Pet 3:21 The like figure [of death and resurrection] whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
This passage does not mean that Christ preached the Gospel to the dead while He was in the grace, but that after He resurrected He went to proclaim His victory to the fallen angels.

 

[T_More]

Okay. Let’s look at this passage* in context*. This passage does not mean that Christ preached the Gospel to the dead while He was in the grace, but that after He resurrected He went to proclaim His victory to the fallen angels.

Why would Christ need to proclaim victory to fallen angels? What does this accomplish?

 

[CMatt25]

This issue doesn’t seem to have been settled even among the many Christian denominations to this day. Some say Saturday is the Sabbath and Sunday is the Lord’s Day. Others say Sunday is the Sabbath. The primary reason for this confusion seems to be the practice of the early Church having their “main” (for lack of a better word) service on Sunday. From what I have read, a couple of reasons for this are; 1) the early Jewish Christians would still observe the Sabbath and go to the Synagogue on Saturday then meet on Sunday for Christian worship, or 2) the early Christians met on Sunday because that was the day of Christ’s resurrection.

As I was writing this it dawned on me to consult my CCC. (Probably should have gone there first. I apologize. I haven’t made it all the way across the Tiber yet.)

345 The sabbath – the end of the work of the six days. The sacred text says that “on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done,” that the “heavens and earth were finished,” and that God “rested” on this day and sanctified and blessed it…

349 The eighth day. But for us a new day has dawned: the day of Christ’s Resurrection. The seventh day completes the first creation. The eighth day begins the new creation…

2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath…

So, I think we can see from this the Catholic Church did not change the Sabbath to Sunday.

So my SDA friend would say if Catholics didn’t change the Sabbath, they still changed the ceremonial observance day. Which to her is the Sabbath. Happy Sabbath to any of our SDA brothers and sisters who may be lurking.

 

[CMatt25]

I’ve been talking with my friend about this. He’s a Catholic but he’s been studying the SDA, going to church on Saturdays, and going to their Bible study. He doesn’t know much about his faith and I continue to “school him” in his misconceptions of the Church. A few days ago he brought up the topic of infant baptisms and how can that happen when babies can’t believe. I informed him on a few Bible passages that explain that in fact there were infant baptisms performed. He listened and he knows he was mistaken.

I have no problem with our infant baptism. Indeed it was as an infant when I became a member of the Catholic Church and when the permanent mark of belonging to the Church became indelibly marked upon on my soul. But other than the household baptism verses which in my versions don’t really give ages, can you direct me to the verses showing where infants were baptized? Thanks!

 

[CMatt25]

Oh, I forgot to mention, don’t bother trying to argue this with a SDA. They will only get excited and you will only strain the relationship.

Not a trait only associated with SDAs I am afraid.

 

[CMatt25]

Col 2:13-19, “And you, when you were dead by reason of your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh (failing to follow the Old Covenant), He brought to life along with Him, forgiving you all of your sins (bypassing the O.C.), cancelling the decree agains us (the O.C.), which was hostile to us. Indeed, He has taken it completely away, NAILING IT TO THE CROSS (the O.C. was nailed to the cross, effectively ending it, and with it the Sabbath). …Let no one call you to account for what you eat or drink or in regard to a festival or a new moon, or a SABBATH.” That says, just what it says, DO NOT ACCOUNT FOR A SABBATH.

I know enough about SDA to say I think they believe this refers to the yearly sacrificial ceremonial sabbath festivals which involved offerings. It is these they say Paul refers to as shadows of Christ. Not the weekly one.

This is the problem when we think only we know all truth when it is faith. As is even the case with our Catholic faith, it is just that. Faith and belief. Peace.

 

[CMatt25]

Here is what I say to SDA atni-Catholic lines: YYAAAAAAWWWNNNNNN

And what part of the phrase “fulfilled the OT” do SDA not comprehend?

Or they might say what part of not til heaven and earth have passed and all is fulfilled do we not comprehend. Peace.

 

[CMatt25]

he can worship on saturday in the Catholic Church too, if that is the issue. they have Mass in most parishes every day of the week. at least where i am from. Peace to you and yours

True except the argument would be Saturday Masses do not exist because it’s the Sabbath. In the case of the Vigil it might be argued they were instituted just to get more folks into the pews. And for a later Vigil in winter it can be going on after sunset

 

[CMatt25]

Okay,but is Saturday the seventh day of the week in Jewish (Mosaic Old Covenant) religious law. The day of rest for Christianity has been replaced
by Sunday, the Lords day, because Jesus Christ was resurrected on Sunday.

The Old Covenant, and with it the Sabbath, was obsoleted by the New Covenant. It was replaced by the Law of Christ and the Lord’s Day:

2Cor 3:4-18, “…but their minds were darkened; for to this day, when the Old Testament is read to them, the selfsame veil remains, not being lifted to disclose the Christ in whom IT IS MADE VOID.”

2Cor 5:17, “If then any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the former
things HAVE PASSED AWAY; BEHOLD, THEY ARE MADE NEW!”

Eph 2:15, “The law of the commandments expressed in decrees HE HAS
MADE VOID, that of the two He might create in Himself one new man
and make peace.”

Col 2:13-19, “And you, when you were dead by reason of your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh (failing to follow the Old Covenant), He brought to life along with Him, forgiving you all of your sins (bypassing the O.C.), cancelling the decree agains us (the O.C.), which was hostile to us. Indeed, He has taken it completely away, NAILING IT TO THE CROSS (the O.C. was nailed to the cross, effectively ending it, and with it the Sabbath). …Let no one call you to account for what you eat or drink or in regard to a festival or a new moon, or a SABBATH.” That says, just what it says, DO NOT ACCOUNT FOR A SABBATH.

Hebrews 8:6-13, “But now he has obtained a SUPERIOR MINISTRY, IN PROPORTION AS HE IS MEDIATOR, OF A SUPERIOR COVENANT, enacted on the basis of superior promises. For had the FIRST BEEN FAULTLESS, PLACE WOULD NOT OF COURSE BE SOUGHT FOR A SECOND. (so the O.C. was faulted, through our fault not GOD’s, and there was a need for a N.C.)…(vs13) Now in saying ‘A NEW COVENANT,’ HE HAS MADE OBSOLETE THE FORMER ONE; AND THAT WHICH IS OBSOLETE AND HAS GROWN OLD IS NEAR ITS END.”

Hebrews 7:11-12, “…what further need was there that another priest should rise, according to the order of Melchisedech, and said not to be according to the order of Aaron? For when the priesthood is changed, IT IS NECCESSARY THAT A CHANGE OF LAW BE MADE ALSO.”

I do not see how Scripture could be any plainer than that. The Old Covenant, and with it the Sabbath, circumcision, bloody sacrifices and a multitude of other Jewish laws was ended and replaced by the New Covenant of Jesus Christ. The Sabbath is ended, finis, kaput… But there is a lot more. Read Hebrews 9 and 10, about the New Covenant.

Hebrews 10:9-10, ‘“Behold, I come to do thy will, O GOD,” HE ANNULS THE FIRST COVENANT IN ORDER TO ESTABLISH THE SECOND.’
The Sabbath along with the Old Covenant is dead, the last nail driven into the coffin, and it is buried.

Galations 3:10-29, “For those who rely on the works of the Law are under a curse…BUT THAT BY THE LAW NO MAN IS JUSTIFIED BEFORE GOD IS EVIDENT, BECAUSE HE WHO IS JUST LIVES BY FAITH…CHRIST REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW…BUT BEFORE THE FAITH CAME WE WERE KEPT IMPRISONED UNDER THE LAW, SHUT UP FOR THE FAITH THAT WAS TO BE REVEALED. THEREFORE THE LAW HAS BEEN OUR TUTOR UNTO CHRIST, THAT WE MIGHT BE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH. BUT NOW THAT FAITH HAS COME, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER A TUTOR…”
The Old Covenant (the Law, and with it the Sabbath), has been a good tutor, but is no longer needed.

Sabbatarians insist St. Paul preached to the Jews on the Sabbath, and therefore, the Sabbath is still the day of worship:They are right about his preaching to the Jews on the Sabbath as shown in Acts 13:14, Acts 13:44, and Acts 18:4. What they fail to realize is, since that was the day when the Jews were gathered in the Synagogue, as it was their Sabbath, he could preach to the maximum number gathered in one place, all at one time. That was the only reason for his preaching to the Jews on the Sabbath.
He preached to the Jews first on the Sabbath, while they were gathered in one place and then after he preached to the Gentiles as shown in Acts 13:46.

Also, they fail to see that St. Paul was not under the Law of the Old Covenant
but under the Law of Christ, “And I have become to the Jews a Jew that I might gain the Jews; to those under the Law, as one under the Law, that I might gain those under the Law; to those without the Law, though I am not without the Law of GOD, but am under the Law of Christ.” 1Cor 9:20-21

To break this down, in easier terms:
St. Paul said he was not under the Law of the Jews (the Old Covenant).
However, he said he was not without the Law.
He said his Law was a different Law.
He said his Law is the Law of Christ (the New Covenant).

Ok but with all this about Mosaic law, the SDA argument might be… Didn’t God write the 10 Commandments and Moses wrote them down in stone? And wasn’t Christ from the beginning? Who wrote “shalt not kill” and the other 9 in stone? The Pope? And we just follow 9 of the 10 commandments now? Do you see where this is going? Nowhere. It’s all a matter of faith and belief. Peace.

 

[Poco]

So my SDA friend would say if Catholics didn’t change the Sabbath, they still changed the ceremonial observance day. Which to her is the Sabbath.

It’s amazing how people will twist things around and redefine terms to make their opinions “correct”.

Happy Sabbath to any of our SDA brothers and sisters who may be lurking.

I second that!

 

[MarysRoses]

Ok but with all this about Mosaic law, the SDA argument might be… Didn’t God write the 10 Commandments and Moses wrote them down in stone? And wasn’t Christ from the beginning? Who wrote “shalt not kill” and the other 9 in stone? The Pope? And we just follow 9 of the 10 commandments now? Do you see where this is going? Nowhere. It’s all a matter of faith and belief. Peace.

Hi

I’m a former SDA. I was at an SDA college in Keene TX in my senior year of working on a theology degree when I made the decision to become a Catholic. A lot of things led up to that decision… but obviously, I’ve thought a lot about Sabbath/Sunday issues then and through the years since.

This is a repost of my thoughts on the topic. I like to contribute them to sabbath discussions. This was written in response to a poster who claimed that since Catholics do believe the 10 commandments are moral law, we ought to be worshiping on Saturday, not Sunday: So here we go again! …

Adventists and Catholics both believe that the Ten Commandments are valid and binding. But there are differences in the details, which is why people are continually talking past each other in this thread.

You are right that there are problems when people say there is no law.

You agree that God’s eternal law is a law of Love. Something that existed before Adam and Eve were created, and will always continue. This law is woven directly into his creation… it is an expression of who God is. Societies instinctively know that some laws and rules are good and build up society, and some actions are things that tear apart families and society. Societies that allow murder, adultery, and stealing don’t last. People who live in them have shorter, unhappy lives.

Catholics believe that the ten commandments are binding… as an expression of this natural moral law. God’s law of love. An interesting contrast to me, is that Adventists believe the 10 commandments as written, word for word, in Exodus 20
are this eternal law.

So close… but such a difference.

Small divergences can have huge consequences.

Adventists believe that the sabbath commandment, as given in the 20th chapter of Exodus… is exactly the same as is inscribed on the tablets held in the ark of the covenant. Their prophetess, Ellen G. White, had a vision, that these tablets were now in heaven, and she said she saw a halo of light highlighting this sabbath commandment. She said that this commandment would be a test for believers, whether they truly follow God and are loyal to Him, or have been deceived by man, with an emphasis on sabbath being “given at creation” (her view… and Adventist teaching, the bible actually does not record it being kept by man until the time of Moses) and that the only proper day to “keep” it was the seventh day of the week… our Saturday.

Catholics believe that Exodus 20 is an expression of God’s eternal law…the natural, moral law, just as Deuteronomy 5 is an expression of God’s eternal law. Both passages list the 10 commandments. Both are essentially the same. But… they are not identical. The sabbath commandment has a different rationale in the two different chapters, both of which are accounts of the giving of the 10 commandments:

From Exodus 20:

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

From Deuteronomy 5:

12 "Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

This difference presents no problem to Catholics… as we believe both passages, and both listings, are expressions of God’s law… not exact transcripts. Catholics believe the Ten Commandments are binding as moral law, not because we believe we are under the same covenant as Israel. Catholics believe Christians are under the New Covenant, and are not bound by the shadows contained in the old covenant.

Adventists have to consider the following… in deuteronomy the reason for the sabbath being given to the Hebrews was this:

Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

Probably the first thing about my above statement that will jump out to an Adventist and prompt a quick response… “given to the Hebrews”. They would be quick to insist the sabbath was given at creation and was not just for Israel.

(Cont. next post…)

 

[MarysRoses]

But look at the introduction to this chapter, Deuteronomy 5:1-3 :
1 Moses summoned all Israel and said:
Hear, O Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our fathers that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.

The Bible, specifically says this covenant was NOT WITH OUR FATHERS… This same chapter goes on to list the same essential commandments as Exodus 4… in fact this is another account of the same event, the covenant with Israel.

Yes… it is fair to say the sabbath is a memorial of creation. This reasoning is in Exodus 20. But it is also a fact that the sabbath is a memorial of Israel’s deliverance from bondage in Egypt, as recorded in Deuteronomy 5.

It is also an uncomfortable fact (for Adventists) that Deuteronomy affirms that this covenant was made with the Hebrews… at horeb, and explicitly says it was not made with their fathers.

I have not seen any credible biblical argument that the Ten Commandments, as recorded in Exodus 20, are an exact transcript of God’s eternal law. The fact that there are two versions of them in the bible, with different details but the same essentials shows that they are expressions of the same, deeper reality… not a word for word contract.

That said… what about the sabbath? Catholics accept the Ten Commandments are moral law. What is moral about the sabbath? What is shadow? What passed away withe the Old Covenant… what is binding under the new Law of Love that the NT says is written on the tables of our heart?

What is moral about the sabbath, and what is shadow?

Adventists teach that during the end times, the sabbath will become a matter of salvation. (some teach that it already is, but I’m trying to be charitable). Adventists cannot agree on exactly “how” to keep the sabbath. Some go out to eat, some won’t. Some warm food up… some don’t. Some will cook simple foods, some will only re heat. Some will go to the grocery store for necessities, some won’t.
All they can agree on is that whatever you do to keep “sabbath” holy, is that mostly, it involves going to church and even more importantly, that it has to happen on Saturday. Sunday will not do. To keep Sunday is to disobey God. “knowingly” keeping Sunday instead of Saturday if you have been given the “light” on the sabbath, will cost you your salvation.

Problem is, Saturday is an arbitrary, human designation. As such, Catholics do not see a moral precept that rest must be on Saturday. Saturday is not natural, and in actuality, you can’t even be sure what day you designate as Saturday, is in fact the biblical sabbath.

Adventists will argue the Jews have never lost sabbath… that is not quite correct. For most of the planet west of Jerusalem, that our “saturday” is congruent with the NT sabbath is fairly certain. East of Jerusalem to the international dateline, that is more tricky. In the polar regions where you may go days without a sunset… trickier still. And we now have the technology to live in space, where there is no sunrise/sunset at all. Even the Jewish scholars disagree on exactly how to keep the biblical sabbath on the International space station, or in the arctic where there is no sunrise/sundown some times during the year. There are rabbis that argue, that because of the international dateline ( a totally man made, imaginary line), Jews living EAST of Jerusalem and WEST of the dateline should not keep sabbath before it begins in Jerusalem, even if that means they keep sabbath on the day recognized by civil government as Sunday. Adventists follow the dateline, not the beginning of the sabbath in Jerusalem (which is biblical? who has the authority to say?)

The 10 commandments are binding as an expression of Natural, moral law. The old covenant and its shadows have been fulfilled. There is nothing natural about keeping “saturday” over any other day of the week. It doesn’t exist in nature. There is a moral precept in having time set aside for regular rest. (If you actually read the commandment, worship and assembly are not in there)

There is nothing morally superior about Saturday over Sunday for rest.

Adventists will argue that there is nothing natural about a 7 day week, and therefore, it only exists because of the sabbath, a Proof. Again… that is not correct. That is putting the cart before the horse. The natural origin of the week is apparent to anyone who has watched a mother cut up fruit or a sandwich for her child. You cut it in half… if the pieces aren’t quite small enough, you cut it in half again. The lunar cycle is 28 days… a little too much for humans to order their lives around… half of that is 14… still a bit too much… half again is 7. And there is the week, a perfectly natural, logical division of the lunar month. What mother wastes time cutting an apple into fifths?

Within the cycle though, no day stands out as having any quality different from another.

Even in the commandment, the word seventh is not the name of a particular day, but an ordinal number… as in the third planet, the fourth apple, or the seventh day. If you mix up a plate of apples and recount them, a different one might be the “seventh” one each time you order them.

(cont. Next post…)

 

[MarysRoses]

cont. from previous post)

The church recognizes this moral precept of setting aside regular time for rest, and also the NT precept of not neglecting to assemble ourselves together… and applies these to the first day of the week… Sunday. The day of the resurrection. The first day, which is also the Eighth… which cannot be found in the natural weekly cycle. It stands outside time. God’s rest stands outside time… Eternity. The Jewish people looked at sabbath and remembered creation .(Exodus 20:8). Christians look at Sunday and remember the NEW creation. (2 Cor 5:17) The Jewish people looked at sabbath and remembered their deliverance from slavery in Egypt. (Deut. 5:15) Christians look at Sunday and remember their deliverance from slavery to the law. (Romans 8:2) The Jewish people looked at sabbath and carefully guarded its edges, looking forward to entering into God’s eternal rest. Christians experience Sunday as a joyful feast, a weekly Easter, a celebration of their rest in Christ, who is the fulfillment of the old covenant sabbath, and in whom Christians find their sabbath, their rest. (Hebrews 4:10)

One of the old covenant shadows, was the offering of the first fruits. Jesus is referred to in the New Testament, as the first fruits of those who are raised from the dead. On what day was the offering of the first fruits made? (Leviticus 23:39) The Eighth day!

Jesus is our sabbath rest.

Sunday is the feast of the Church, a celebration of what Jesus has done for us. Sunday is not the sabbath on another day.
There is no explicit biblical command for Christians to worship on Sunday, this is not a matter of old covenant law. It fulfills the moral precept of regular rest and worship, “keeping” the commandment, as Christians should keep the commandments. As moral law. In spirit and truth, not in letter and shadows.

Adventists love to trot out statements that the Church “changed” the sabbath to Sunday. You can find them. They summarize the externals (The day of the week has changed) without delving into the deeper meanings and history. Adventists take these simple explanations, which were not meant to be in depth theological statements, and twist them to their own meanings.

In common English usage, ‘sabbath’ means any day of rest and worship. This is frequently and correctly used in the English language to designate the Sunday rest day as well as the Saturday Sabbath. The Church, did indeed change the day of worship. Christians no longer rest and worship on Saturday, they rest and worship on Sunday. So the Church did indeed “change” the sabbath… as the English word is commonly understood meaning a day of rest. If you look for specific clarification about the status of the biblical sabbath in regards to Sunday, the Church is very clear. Saturday is the biblical sabbath. Sunday is not the sabbath on another day… it is a day distinct from the Jewish sabbath. These documents and explanations are widely available. For Adventists to use these statements to bolster their own assertions without taking into account context and language… is in fact academic dishonesty.

A Catholic understands “Church” to mean the one Church, which has existed from the day of Pentecost. The authority which is referred to in the statements… is the authority Jesus gave his Apostles to teach and establish His Church. Not something that came along long after the apostles. This is indeed “the Church” and the Church did change the day of assembly. These statements were not made with an idea in mind that the “church” came about hundreds of years after Jesus. They are not statements verifying that the day of worship was changed hundreds of years after Jesus. Yet adventists will tack them on after asserting that Sunday became the day of worship under Constantine in the fourth century… as if they confirm their statements. This is another form of academic dishonesty. Catholic statements have to be understood with Catholic definitions of the terms… not Adventist definitions. This is simple fairness.

Adventists claim that Catholics keep Sunday as an act of rebellion against God’s law. Sunday came about not as an act of rebellion against God, but of recognizing the need for Christians to express their new reality and what Jesus has done for us. This was done in the freedom that Jesus paid for with his life, by the apostolic authority which Jesus gave his fledgling church, to teach in His name.

MarysRoses

 

[MarysRoses]

Anyone untaking studying with an Adventist needs to consider the following.

They will use a lot of quotes from historical figures, historical information and bible verses to support their position. Some of them will seem very favorable to their arguments. You can always give an honest answer of “I haven’t heard that, I will look into it.” Then DO look into it, from independent sources or msg me if you want or post a thread. Many quotes from the early Church fathers are taken out of context. Bible verses are open to differing interpretations. Many historical “facts”, are actually not supported generally by historians, sometimes not even by their own historians, so don’t let anything shake your convictions without studying the sources for yourself.

Some interesting questions for Adventists…

So… the sabbath was given to Israel.

WHEN was the sabbath given? Creation?

The first mention in the bible is this:

Hebrews 16:23
23And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

The hebrews had no idea about the sabbath, they tried to gather bread on the 7th day anyway…

29See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

It is interesting that the giving of the manna and the giving of the sabbath are at the same time. This is why they were to REMEMBER the sabbath… not from creation… but from the manna which fell six days.

Adventists will argue with my interpretation, but the prophet Nehemiah would seem to agree with me:

Neh. 9:13-14.
Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments; and MADEST KNOWN UNTO THEM THY HOLY SABBATH, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant.

It doesn’t seem that the sabbath was known to the people before Exodus. According to the BIBLE.

My list of unanswered questions for Adventists:

Where in Genesis are WE commanded to keep the sabbath?

Let them look for the answer in vain. The seventh day was hallowed. Sabbath means to rest or cease… God ceased his works… and rested. Where is it recorded God “went back to work” ? Where are men told to follow his example? Where is there any record at all of anyone “keeping” a sabbath until it was given to Israel in the desert.

Where in the New Testament are CHRISTIANS commanded to keep the sabbath?

Let them look. Remember that the Jewish Christians attending sabbath services to preach to Jews doesn’t count as a command. You go where people are when they are gathered, in Israel, that would be the sabbath synagogue services. When in Athens, St. Paul went to the shrine of the “Unknown God” to preach. That doesn’t mean we are to gather at pagan temples to worship.

What is the biblical method for identifying “Saturday” (since Adventists allow for no exceptions) in all times and all places where men live?

A puzzle for Adventists: Adventists demonstrably accept changes in calendars which DO affect the order of days, most notably, the adoption of the International Date Line.

In the eastern Hemisphere, the saturday/sabbath falls BEFORE sabbath begins in Jerusalem. YET … Adventists can find no biblical command that allows this.

Adventists in Kiribati go to church on their Saturday… even though at the same exact time on the same line of longitude a few hundred miles to the north, it is Friday in Hawaii and Adventists are hard at work preparing for their sabbath, which is still in the future.

Think about this… the very SAME sunset that ENDS the Sabbath for kiribatian Adventists… BEGINS the Sabbath for Hawaiian Adventists…

I have pointed this inconsistency out Many MANY times on this forum, no adventist wants to tackle this difficult problem of theirs.

Evidently, this eternal, immutable law they like to talk about is easily changed by any civil government!

phys.uu.nl/~vgent/idl/idl_kiribati.htm

And interestingly, there are both Catholics and Adventists living on Kiribati. According to a forum member who lives on Kiribati, a Catholic who has adventist relatives… both groups follow the local calendar. That means at the very same time…while SDA people on Kiribati are “keeping” the sabbath on Saturday, local time, Adventists just north of them in Hawaii are busily working on their Friday, local time, to get ready for their sabbath the “next” day.

???

The letter of the law brings only death…

The spirit gives life.

How do you enter into the divine rest? Under the old covenant… God gave them a finite day to enter into this divine reality. Under the new… We have God Himself in the person of His divine Son, Jesus.
The Jews failed to enter into this divine, HOLY beyond human conception, rest that was hidden in the shadow of a day…
Christians have Jesus, who is all Holy and we find our rest in Him.
Again, fulfilling the shadow.

Adventists make the mistake of taking something infinitely Holy and beyond human understanding, and trying to tie it to something very limited… a particular day of the week.

God Bless,
MarysRoses