Seventh Day Adventists say Catholics changed...

[benidict]

True except the argument would be Saturday Masses do not exist because it’s the Sabbath. In the case of the Vigil it might be argued they were instituted just to get more folks into the pews. And for a later Vigil in winter it can be going on after sunset

yes CMATT, you are probably right. this would be the argument used. but i wonder what they say to us having mass 7 days a week. when i was a civilian, i was able to go every day. i worked p.m. shift so i could. it became a very good part of my day, work went alot easier too. why only celebrate ONE day. also seeing the Catholic Church doing this, really looks like a fulfillment of malachi 1:11 to me. no other Church does this. dont know about the anglicans and the orthodox. my education is somewhat lacking as to their practices. but im including them in malachi 1:11 since we are only seperated by a very thin veil. Peace

 

[MarysRoses]

just a note on vigil masses…

The earliest Jewish Christians for a time had a tradition of attending Synagogue services on Sabbath, then gathering in homes with fellow Christians, after evening, when the sabbath was past. Days were measured sunset to sunset then. Our present day Saturday evening was the beginning of the first day of the week for them. Later, after the fall of Jerusalem, Some Christians of Jewish heritage continued keeping Sabbath, then meeting after dark (the beginning of the First Day) with other Christians for Eucharist. St. Paul as well as later Early Church fathers made it clear that Christians were free to keep sabbath if they wanted to, but it was not mandatory for Christians.

MarysRoses

 

[CMatt25]

yes CMATT, you are probably right. this would be the argument used. but i wonder what they say to us having mass 7 days a week. when i was a civilian, i was able to go every day. i worked p.m. shift so i could. it became a very good part of my day, work went alot easier too. why only celebrate ONE day. also seeing the Catholic Church doing this, really looks like a fulfillment of malachi 1:11 to me. no other Church does this. dont know about the anglicans and the orthodox. my education is somewhat lacking as to their practices. but im including them in malachi 1:11 since we are only seperated by a very thin veil. Peace

I don’t know what they would say. I only took a starter SDA Bible study to get a better understanding. The disciples did meet daily with one accord in the temple. TECs near me have Mass (I know most CAF Catholics wouldn’t refer to it as Mass but for the sake of this post oblige me for doing so if only because my local TECs do so) 2 weekdays and a Sat evening and Sundays.

 

[benidict]

just a note on vigil masses…

The earliest Jewish Christians for a time had a tradition of attending Synagogue services on Sabbath, then gathering in homes with fellow Christians, after evening, when the sabbath was past. Days were measured sunset to sunset then. Our present day Saturday evening was the beginning of the first day of the week for them. Later, after the fall of Jerusalem, Some Christians of Jewish heritage continued keeping Sabbath, then meeting after dark (the beginning of the First Day) with other Christians for Eucharist. St. Paul as well as later Early Church fathers made it clear that Christians were free to keep sabbath if they wanted to, but it was not mandatory for Christians.

MarysRoses

 

[JRKH]

Ok but with all this about Mosaic law, the SDA argument might be… Didn’t God write the 10 Commandments and Moses wrote them down in stone? And wasn’t Christ from the beginning? Who wrote “shalt not kill” and the other 9 in stone? The Pope? And we just follow 9 of the 10 commandments now? Do you see where this is going? Nowhere. It’s all a matter of faith and belief. Peace.

This brings a thought to mind.

The ten commandments are seen as “Written by God” and that makes these ten the all important ones.

So where in the Ten commandments is contained the second of the “Greatest Commandments” that Jesus refers to in Mt 22:36-40.
Mt 22:36-40 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, " YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 **"The second is like it, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”**

So the Second Greatest commandment, according to Jesus Christ Himself, is NOT the second commandment of the ten that God the Father wrote in stone. In fact, it is not even included in the “ten commandments” at all.

What does this tell us about the relative importance of the ten commandments as written?
I don’t say that we should not keep them, that is, to keep the intent of theem, but each and all of them are, as Christ tells us based on the Law of Love - Love of God and Love of neighbor.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

just a note on vigil masses…

The earliest Jewish Christians for a time had a tradition of attending Synagogue services on Sabbath, then gathering in homes with fellow Christians, after evening, when the sabbath was past. Days were measured sunset to sunset then. Our present day Saturday evening was the beginning of the first day of the week for them. Later, after the fall of Jerusalem, Some Christians of Jewish heritage continued keeping Sabbath, then meeting after dark (the beginning of the First Day) with other Christians for Eucharist. St. Paul as well as later Early Church fathers made it clear that Christians were free to keep sabbath if they wanted to, but it was not mandatory for Christians.

MarysRoses

Not just on this post but all of your posts here. Very informative and well written.

Peace
James

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Here is what I say to SDA atni-Catholic lines: YYAAAAAAWWWNNNNNN

How is anything you have posted below anti-Catholic?

And what part of the phrase “fulfilled the OT” do SDA not comprehend? If that is the case,then why wondering why Jesus did not resurrect on Saturday,instead of Sunday?

Perhaps you mean: Matt5: 17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

So, Jesus says that He has come NOT to destroy the law which He Himself gave on mt. Sinai, but He would fulfill the law. In other words be the only one ever to not sin, keep the law, fulfill the law. And He would also fulfill the prophets because the Prophets spoke of Him. Rev. 19:10b for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Ask your SDA friend if they practice circumcision too?

Why would we practice circumcision. We are now circumcised with the circumcision done without hands.
Col.2:
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
In other words. We are baptised.

Do they follow the OT dietary laws too?

Yes

BTW: In case your friend did not know,Saturday was also the day of worship for the pagan god Saturn…where we get SATURDAY…

Sunday is the venerable day of the sun. The day on which Constintine worshiped his sun god Sol Invictus.
Again, how are any of these things anti-Catholic?

 

[JRKH]

So, Jesus says that He has come NOT to destroy the law which He Himself gave on mt. Sinai, but He would fulfill the law. In other words be the only one ever to not sin, keep the law, fulfill the law. And He would also fulfill the prophets because the Prophets spoke of Him. Rev. 19:10b for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

So I’m curious. Did Jesus not sin “under the law”, when he healed the shriveled hand on the sabbath? Regardless of the justification it did violate “the Law” did it not?

Peace
James

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Basically my understanding of the above is that Christ did not abolish the Sabbath, just as He said He didn’t. What He did in fulfilling the law was to make the Sabbath rest “today” (v. 7). In other words in stead of the Sabbath being only one day a week He made the Sabbath every day of the week. We are to continually “rest” in Him and His completed work. He doesn’t want just one day a week, He wants us every day of the week. Our whole lives are to be dedicated to him and his perfect law of liberty (James 1:25) will make us free indeed. If we are already observing the Sabbath in out hearts every day, outward observance of the Sabbath one one day a week is rather shallow and merely shadow of the fulfilled law.

This understanding goes against what the commandment says.
Ex.20:8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

In the six days prior to the Sabbath we are to do all of our work.

There is nothing wrong with observing the Sabbath only once a week, but neither is it going to help you much if you are hoping that will allow you to be more acceptable to God.

Acceptance by the Lord is not a matter of degrees. IOW we do not become more or less acceptable in the eyes of the Lord. We become acceptable to God through our acceptance of Jesus. When we do that we are changed by the power of the Holy Spirit. And because we are changed and now love the Lord. We keep His commandments.
Jn.14:15If ye love me, keep my commandments. These are the ten commandments. Including the Sabbath commandment. The commandments serve one function and that is to show us that we are sinners and in need of a Savior. Breaking of those commandments is sin or rebellion against the God who gave them. 1Jn.3: 4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

 

[CMatt25]

This brings a thought to mind.

The ten commandments are seen as “Written by God” and that makes these ten the all important ones.

So where in the Ten commandments is contained the second of the “Greatest Commandments” that Jesus refers to in Mt 22:36-40.
Mt 22:36-40 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, " YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 **"The second is like it**, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

So the Second Greatest commandment, according to Jesus Christ Himself, is NOT the second commandment of the ten that God the Father wrote in stone. In fact, it is not even included in the “ten commandments” at all.

What does this tell us about the relative importance of the ten commandments as written?
I don’t say that we should not keep them, that is, to keep the intent of theem, but each and all of them are, as Christ tells us based on the Law of Love - Love of God and Love of neighbor.

Peace
James

I suppose several in a way reflect upon loving our neighbor. Certainly if we honor our parents, don’t kill our neighbor, don’t commit adultery with our neighbor’s spouse, don’t steal from them, don’t bare false witness against them, don’t covet their wife or goods, that’s a start in loving them.

 

[JRKH]

I suppose several in a way reflect upon loving our neighbor. Certainly if we honor our parents, don’t kill our neighbor, don’t commit adultery with our neighbor’s spouse, don’t steal from them, don’t bare false witness against them, don’t covet their wife or goods, that’s a start in loving them.

Naturally all the commandments point to the “Law of Love” as Christ tells us that all The Law and all the prophets stem from that. What I find interesting is that, while the ten commandments are treated as the “Big Ten”, and the most important touchstone of obedience, Christ shows us that the second most important commandment in the Mosaic Law is not even included in the Ten.

I find that interesting.

Peace
James

 

[Nicea325]

Fulfilled means kept, not ended.

He kept the Sabbath even in His grave. He rested on the Sabbath (in His grave), and that’s why He didn’t resurrect on that day.

We do follow the dietary laws and we do practice the biblical circumcision.

And? It was sanctified by God. Don’t call common what God sanctified.

All noted, but we are in the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.

 

[Nicea325]

How is anything you have posted below anti-Catholic?

Perhaps you mean: Matt5: 17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

So, Jesus says that He has come NOT to destroy the law which He Himself gave on mt. Sinai, but He would fulfill the law. In other words be the only one ever to not sin, keep the law, fulfill the law. And He would also fulfill the prophets because the Prophets spoke of Him. Rev. 19:10b for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Why would we practice circumcision. We are now circumcised with the circumcision done without hands.
Col.2:
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
In other words. We are baptised.

Yes

Sunday is the venerable day of the sun. The day on which Constintine worshiped his sun god Sol Invictus.
Again, how are any of these things anti-Catholic?

Well I guess I did jump to conclusions fast.However,you cannot deny many SDA are anti-Catholic. In fact, I recently received a book on my front dor called the Great Controversy…a well known book written by Ellen G. White and has many anti-Catholic tones.

 

[benidict]

we shall see… maybe he actually might. it would be interesting to know where this individual is coming from. peace

 

[benidict]

i dont believe their writings have gotten any kinder. but ive never had a problem conversing with one. they feel the same way about any one who worships on sunday. protestants included. so they are equal opportunity. peace.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I’m not an SDA. But we should always fall back on what was instituted at the very beginning and unless it has been qualified & purposefully replaced we should resume what was first instructed.

The Sabbath was first instituted for the Jews. And they have been practising the sabbath since even before the exodus!.

Jesus says:
Mark 2:27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

The Sabbath was made for all of mankind (not just the Jews)

 

[Richard_Kastner]

So I’m curious. Did Jesus not sin “under the law”, when he healed the shriveled hand on the sabbath? Regardless of the justification it did violate “the Law” did it not?

Peace
James

let’s examine it a little

Matt/12: 9And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:
10And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
11And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
12How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

So what is sin?

1Jn.3:4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin is the transgression of the law. What law. James calls it the law of liberty. The ten commandments.

James 1:25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
James 2:10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Jesus thinks that it is the ten commandments

Matt.19:16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mark10:17And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Luke 18:19And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.

We know that Jesus was the perfect human. He never sinned (transgressed the law). So what law are the Pharisees talking about in Matt.12

Matt 12:1At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.
2But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

In the Old Testament the city of Jerusalem was burned and the children of Israel were sent into exile because of thier continual transgression of God’s law. Not the least of which was the Sabbath commandment. In the book of Nehemiah we see the end of this time of exile and the restoration of Jerusalem and the rebuilding of the wall. In Isaiah this becomes a metaphore for the restoration of God’s law.
Isaiah 58: 1Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.
Isaiah 58:12And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.
13If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

The Pharasee’s came into being at this time and there main purpose was to protect God’s holy day. The Sabbath. Well as most of the attempts by man to “help God” go wrong so does this one. They surrounded the Sabbath with hundreds of laws so that instead of a delight as it says in Isaiah 58, it became drudgery, and basically imposible to keep.

Matt.23:1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Jesus says that the Pharisees sit in Moses seat and when they tell you to observe the things that Moses told us to observe , that do. The other stuff is baloney.

Matt.15:8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

 

[JRKH]

Richard Kastner,
Thank you for that exposition.

I have another question to ask you.
Do you think that the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 acted correctly in its decision to not require the Gentiles in Antioch to carry, " a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? (Acts 15:10), and instead write to them,
“For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.” (Acts 15: 28-29)

Peace
James

 

[FantomScholar]

Naturally all the commandments point to the “Law of Love” as Christ tells us that all The Law and all the prophets stem from that. What I find interesting is that, while the ten commandments are treated as the “Big Ten”, and the most important touchstone of obedience, Christ shows us that the second most important commandment in the Mosaic Law is not even included in the Ten.

I find that interesting.

Peace
James

I think you raise a very important point here, JR. Unless one views Jesus as being both fundamentally different and fundamentally superior to Moses, such statements by Him do not make any sense. As I discussed in another thread that raised the issue of the relationship to the New Covenant Church with the Covenant of Mt. Sinai; Jesus is not merely repeating Moses, He is doing away with Moses since He is the greater lawgiver with a greater covenant with a greater priesthood: “For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.” - Heb. 7:12

 

[johns58w]

just a note on vigil masses…

The earliest Jewish Christians for a time had a tradition of attending Synagogue services on Sabbath, then gathering in homes with fellow Christians, after evening, when the sabbath was past. Days were measured sunset to sunset then. Our present day Saturday evening was the beginning of the first day of the week for them. Later, after the fall of Jerusalem, Some Christians of Jewish heritage continued keeping Sabbath, then meeting after dark (the beginning of the First Day) with other Christians for Eucharist. St. Paul as well as later Early Church fathers made it clear that Christians were free to keep sabbath if they wanted to, but it was not mandatory for Christians.

MarysRoses

Thank you for your posts. Excellent refutations to fundamentalist teachings.

Are you familiar with Dr. Scott Hahn, Dr. Peter Kreeft, Karl Keating?

Your works appear to be in line with these gentlemen. Very valuable and rich in information.

God Bless.