Seventh Day Adventists say Catholics changed...

[benidict]

Richard, you expect us to diligently read all of your scriptures. Here is something for you to read:
thetrailhome.blogspot.com/2008/02/trail-home.html

ahh my friend. richard has forced my hand. you are correct i do not like swapping scripture like teenagers swap…anyhow, when it comes to the chosen people i feel i will have no choice but to throw verses out there to counter the false assumption that God has no future plan for his chosen people the Jews. will get to this shortly, i still am waking up. and i need to get together my “proof” text. Peace

 

[benidict]

ok here we go. i will start out by giving what the Catholic Catechism states about these people. its found in part one section 839. Those who have not yet recieved the Gospel are related to the poeple of God in various ways. when she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the JEWISH PEOPLE, The first to hear the word of God. the Jewish faith, unlike other non-christian religions, IS ALREADY A RESPONSE TO GODS REVELATION IN THE OLD COVENANT, to the JEWS BELONG the SONSHIP, THE GLORY,THE COVENANTS,THE GIVING OF THE LAW, THE WORSHIP, AND THE PROMISES; to them BELONG THE PATRIARCHS, and of their RACE, according to the flesh, is the CHRIST. FOR THE GIFTS AND CALL OF GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE. continues

 

[benidict]

840 and when one considers the Future,Gods people of the old covenant, and the New People of God tend to move towards Similar Goals; expectation of the coming (or return) of the Messiah. but one awaits the return of the Messiahwho died and rose from the dead, and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus. “proof” text to follow. we are just getting started. shall i start from the New testament and work backward? or the old, and go forward? no bigee to me. which would be more understandable? peace

 

[benidict]

first we can take on romans 11. the whole thing. do i need to write it out? or shall we just take it in bits and pieces. i can quote just as well as any fundamentalist. but its just not my thing anymore. to deny that the Jews no longer have a part in Gods divine plan, is to deny this clear passage of scripture. while we have been grafted into the tree. we are not the tree. we can do this piece mail if we have to. Peace

 

[Javl]

I guess the SDA are no longer interested in trying to foist their theology on us, so we might as well close this forum.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[benidict]

I guess the SDA are no longer interested in trying to foist their theology on us, so we might as well close this forum.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

i will second that. it was just about to become a verse slinging war anyway. very unprofitable for all concerned. peace

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I guess the SDA are no longer interested in trying to foist their theology on us, so we might as well close this forum.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Ok, Javl, first of all I’m not trying to “foist” anything on anyone. Second, as far as I know in the recent past of this thread I am the only SDA that has posted (to the best of my knowledge) and what I am trying to do is get you to see what the bible says. If you do not agree with anything that I have posted in post #201 let’s hear it. Please be specific.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

i will second that. it was just about to become a verse slinging war anyway. very unprofitable for all concerned. peace

Hello Ben. To answer your post. WHAT??? To the best of my knowledge you have not posted one scripture. You seem to think that it is immature or sophmoric to quote scripture (THE WORD OF GOD). I can’t imagine how you have gotten yourself into such a counterproductive mindset.

ahh my friend. richard has forced my hand. you are correct i do not like swapping scripture like teenagers swap…anyhow, when it comes to the chosen people i feel i will have no choice but to throw verses out there to counter the false assumption that God has no future plan for his chosen people the Jews. will get to this shortly, i still am waking up. and i need to get together my “proof” text. Peace

Well, anyway the only scripture you even mention is Rom. 11

first we can take on romans 11. the whole thing. do i need to write it out? or shall we just take it in bits and pieces. i can quote just as well as any fundamentalist. but its just not my thing anymore. to deny that the Jews no longer have a part in Gods divine plan, is to deny this clear passage of scripture. while we have been grafted into the tree. we are not the tree. we can do this piece mail if we have to. Peace

Let’s just take a look at Rom.11

Romans 11
1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Paul makes a comparison between the time of Elijah when he was in the cave he prayed to the Lord and said that he was the only one who had not bowed to the knee to Baal. The Lord answered him and said, not so. I have left a remnant of 7,000 that have not. Paul compares this to his present situation. Now let me ask you Ben. Who is Paul talking about here? Who is this election according to grace? Take a look at v. 7

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

“Israel has not obtained that which he seeketh for”

John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2The same was in the beginning with God.

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

The grace given to the world was Jesus. This was the only reason for God to have a chosen people. So did God abandon His people? Absolutely not. Did many/most of them misunderstand who the Messiah was and what He would do? Absolutely. God chose His people (the descendents of Abraham) that through this people the world would be blessed.
Genesis 12
1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

God fulfilled every promise He made to the children of Israel. Its just that many of them were looking to this world for salvation.

 

[benidict]

this is part of the problem my friend. you only used 6 verses that “seem” to back up what you are saying. am debating wheather or not i wish to proceed with this, have asked some others and will wait to see if they think i should. i am fully prepared to go ahead, but there is a question wheather or not it would even be profitable for all concerned. peace

 

[rinnie]

Ok, Javl, first of all I’m not trying to “foist” anything on anyone. Second, as far as I know in the recent past of this thread I am the only SDA that has posted (to the best of my knowledge) and what I am trying to do is get you to see what the bible says. If you do not agree with anything that I have posted in post #201 let’s hear it. Please be specific.

I have a question Richard. You claim that the SDA only teaches what the bible says right? Okay how do you teach the Sacred Tradtions that are passed down by word of mouth if they are not in the bible?

After all the bible does say to stay true to them does it not?

 

[benidict]

this is part of the problem my friend. you only used 6 verses that “seem” to back up what you are saying. am debating wheather or not i wish to proceed with this, have asked some others and will wait to see if they think i should. i am fully prepared to go ahead, but there is a question wheather or not it would even be profitable for all concerned. peace

my bad. the first 7 verses. there are many passages in the old testament and the new, to prove that physical Israel are still the chosen of God and not the SDA. after conversing with some others, i have decided not to continue this discussion. and instead lift you up in prayer. as a former baptist, i can quote scripture just as well as you. but i feel it would be better to just let the Lord work on your spirit with His Spirit. Peace

 

[Richard_Kastner]

this is part of the problem my friend. you only used 6 verses that “seem” to back up what you are saying. am debating wheather or not i wish to proceed with this, have asked some others and will wait to see if they think i should. i am fully prepared to go ahead, but there is a question wheather or not it would even be profitable for all concerned. peace

Just answer me this Ben. Do you disagree with anything that I said in my previous post and if you do would you be willing to explain just exactly what part that would be? By the way, why do you need anyones opinion on whether or not you give your opinion?

 

[benidict]

Just answer me this Ben. Do you disagree with anything that I said in my previous post and if you do would you be willing to explain just exactly what part that would be? By the way, why do you need anyones opinion on whether or not you give your opinion?

yes richard i do disagree with you, as to who these things were written to, and why. and no i will not be willing to explain to you as to what part this would be. the world wide church of God finally figured out they were wrong, and finally moved closer to orthodoxy. they found out, they were not the chosen. as to why i need anyone elses opinion. i submit myself, first and formost to the Pope, magesterium , and the priest which the Lord Jesus Christ has set up. and furthermore, i take the proverbs seriously, when they say, there is wisdom in many counselors. i put the (name removed by moderator)ut of my Catholic brothers and sisters in higher reguard than my own opinons. this is called humility. i could trade verses with you till the cows come home. but who would that edify? our ego? something to think about. and although i am tempted to do so, it is discipline on my part not to regress into my fundamentalist roots. peace

 

[me_again]

Adventism was founded on a false date-setting prophecy that Jesus would return to the earth in the year 1844.

When Jesus didn’t return, the founder of Adventism, Ellen G. White (now deceased) said that the prophecy was “partially correct” in that what really happened in 1844 was that Jesus actually entered the heavenly holy of holies – even though you couldn’t see it with your eyes. Over the next 150 years, Adventists have been twisting scriptures to support this false doctrine.

It’s difficult to argue with an Adventist who believes with all his heart that the holy scriptures support the above stance.

 

[T_More]

Adventism was founded on a false date-setting prophecy that Jesus would return to the earth in the year 1844.

When Jesus didn’t return, the founder of Adventism, Ellen G. White (now deceased) said that the prophecy was “partially correct” in that what really happened in 1844 was that Jesus actually entered the heavenly holy of holies – even though you couldn’t see it with your eyes. Over the next 150 years, Adventists have been twisting scriptures to support this false doctrine.

It’s difficult to argue with an Adventist who believes with all his heart that the holy scriptures support the above stance.

This pretty sums up the JW’s as well. Russell made predictions that failed and then retroactively changed his interpretations of his previous predictions. No credibility.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

yes richard i do disagree with you, as to who these things were written to, and why. and no i will not be willing to explain to you as to what part this would be.

Well, as to whom the book of Romans was written. All one has to do is read the title and you know it was written to the Romans, but as is true with all of the bible it was written to you and I also. As to why it was written. There are many reasons. Romans 11 is Pauls attempt to identify just who God’s chosen people is. I think these vs. tell the story.
Rom.11
19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

These vs. say that **because of unbelief **the Jews were broken off. Unbelief in what? You might ask. Well, it’s unbelief in Jesus. See this is what it’s all about. The bible is about God’s plan of Salvation in Jesus Christ. It is now and has alwys been man’s **choice **to become one of God’s children. That is all that Paul is saying in Romans 11.

the world wide church of God finally figured out they were wrong, and finally moved closer to orthodoxy. they found out, they were not the chosen.

I’m not sure who you mean by “the world wide church of God”

as to why i need anyone elses opinion. i submit myself, first and formost to the Pope, magesterium , and the priest which the Lord Jesus Christ has set up. and furthermore, i take the proverbs seriously, when they say, there is wisdom in many counselors. i put the (name removed by moderator)ut of my Catholic brothers and sisters in higher reguard than my own opinons. this is called humility.

You need the (name removed by moderator)ut of all these people in order to carry on a simple dialogue on this forum? Sounds quite cumbersome to me.

i could trade verses with you till the cows come home. but who would that edify? our ego? something to think about. and although i am tempted to do so, it is discipline on my part not to regress into my fundamentalist roots. peace

Ya, that’s the trouble you haven’t traded one verse. You have only made mention of Rom.11 which tells us something completely different than you seem to think it does. Oh, wait a minute you’re not willing to explain your position. About the only thing you seem willing to say is that you disagree with me. The bible tells us something about who that would edify.

Eph.4
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Well, as to whom the book of Romans was written. All one has to do is read the title and you know it was written to the Romans, but as is true with all of the bible it was written to you and I also. As to why it was written. There are many reasons. Romans 11 is Pauls attempt to identify just who God’s chosen people is. I think these vs. tell the story.
Rom.11
19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

These vs. say that **because of unbelief **the Jews were broken off. Unbelief in what? You might ask. Well, it’s unbelief in Jesus. See this is what it’s all about. The bible is about God’s plan of Salvation in Jesus Christ. It is now and has alwys been man’s **choice **to become one of God’s children. That is all that Paul is saying in Romans 11.

I’m not sure who you mean by “the world wide church of God”

[SIGN]You need the (name removed by moderator)ut of all these people in order to carry on a simple dialogue on this forum? Sounds quite cumbersome to me. [/SIGN]

Ya, that’s the trouble you haven’t traded one verse. You have only made mention of Rom.11 which tells us something completely different than you seem to think it does. Oh, wait a minute you’re not willing to explain your position. About the only thing you seem willing to say is that you disagree with me. The bible tells us something about who that would edify.

Eph.4
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Yes Richard we do. As a Catholic we hold true to not only Sacred Scripture we hold true to Sacred Tradition like the bible tells us to do.

How could we come in here and try to even begin to teach the faith of God in our one human opinion. We cannot. It is forbidden for us to do so. You would be asking us to used human tradition, and we both know what the bible says about that.

1 Col 2:4 But as we were judged worthy by God to be entrusted with the gospel that is how we speak not as trying to please human beings, but rather God who judges our hearts.

1 Cor 2:13 And for this reason we too give thanks to God unceasingly that in receiving thw word of God unceasingly that in receiving the word of God from HEARING US yu received not a HUMAN but as it Truly is thw WORD OF GOD which is now at work in YOU WHO BELIEVE.

So yes Richard we do need all of the teachings from the Catholic Church that are given to us from the Pope and the Bishops and Priests in the CC.

For we know from whom they have received them from and have that guarantee it is the word of God.

 

[me_again]

Richard, you’re simply slinging around passages of scripture out of a meaningful context, such as:

Snip:

Eph.4
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

“Eph.4
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;”

The quoting of this particular scripture, as well as others, doesn’t make your case, nor does it sustain your position. “Passage slinging” isn’t meaningful, especially when it’s out of context. It’s not a proper exegesis.

 

[rinnie]

And from reading alot of what you write Richard you seem to have alot of trouble with accepting the Jews. If I am wrong I apologize.

But the Jews were indeed the chosen People. The teachings of the Jews are the teachings of the CC also. We do not only have a N.T. the CC is made up of the N.T and the O.T.

Many Jews did not accept Jesus Christ, but many did. What do you think the Blessed Mother was Richard. If not for her being true to God we would not have Jesus.

Many of the Apostles were from the Jewish faith also. God loves the Jews just like he loves us. Actually Richard there is nothing God would like more then to have the Jews return back to his Son.

The Jews will always have a speicial part in the heart of God. Many have not come to the Light of Jesus CHrist but it is happening everyday.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

And from reading alot of what you write Richard you seem to have alot of trouble with accepting the Jews. If I am wrong I apologize…

Apology accepted rinnie. I don’t know what is so hard for you and the rest to understand here. What Paul is here trying to bring out is that God’s chosen people are now and have always been people of faith.
Remember this.
Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
You are counted people of God (chosen), when you believe. It has nothing to do with ethnicity. Now God did choose a people to bring Jesus into the world and this choice of God’s had nothing to do with faith. This is the reason for circumcision. It is an identifying mark of **God’s choice **and this is the reason a baby could be circumcised. I think we went over this many times rinnie. The circumcision of the heart however is the circumcision that leads to eternal life and this can only be accomplished by faith in God (Jesus). Our choice. This is the circumcision done without hands that Paul talks about in Col.2:11. The outward sign of this **our choice **is called baptism.