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benidict
Guest
and that is why i will not debate him on using the bible. he still has left out a better part of romans 11.
oh well. ill let yall take it from here. Peace 
- Status
oh well. ill let yall take it from here. Peace
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Richard_Kastner
Guest
Romans 11and that is why i will not debate him on using the bible. he still has left out a better part of romans 11.
1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
unto this day.9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father’s sakes.
29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Here it is Ben. Where would you like to start?
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me_again
Guest
Richard, I’m not writing this to be rude, but throughout our conversation, the scripture that you just quoted as been crossing my mind continually (regarding Adventist and some of their JW-like theologies, such as the 1844 theory when Jesus didn’t return to the earth, as was promised at the beginning of the SDA belief-system).Romans 11
8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
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Richard_Kastner
Guest
Ya, I think that’s exactly why you posted it.
I don’t recall many conversations that we had me. You just seem to rant on with your inaccurate account of the 1844 prophecy.
Perhaps you could enlighten me with your account of this prophecy. You do know which scriptures this prophecy is taken from don’t you?
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me_again
Guest
No, I can’t spout the scriptures off the top of my head. However, yes, I have read them before e.g. 2300 days and a day for a year, etc.
The 2300 day scripture in Danial that the SDAs use to calculate that 1844 is the year that Jesus entered the holy of holies is pure speculation. According to SDA calculations, 2300 days runs-out in 1844 — and to make the SDA theory stick, Ellen White had to invent some significance to the year 1844 — and that’s why she wrote that that’s the year that Jesus entered the holy of holies. Ellen White further theorized and speculated that in 1844, Jesus began judging the living and the dead in preparation of His second coming.
Ellen White drummed up all these false prophecies because William Miller’s false prophecy that Jesus would return in the year 1844 didn’t materialize, so to justify the alleged significance of that year – and to justify the crushed faith of the followers in that year – all these date-setting theories were created.
It’s sad.
I’ll comment on your other responses later. I gotta run…
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Richard_Kastner
Guest
Dan.8
13Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
Dan.9
20And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;
21Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
22And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
23At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Well, as you can see these aren’t false prophecies at all. You say that Ellen White “drummed” them up, but as you can see here they are. So I guess she didn’t drum them up at all. You just disagree with their interpretation. William Miller did say that Jesus would return at the end of the 2300 days for “Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” Dan.8:14 Quite obviously He did not return. Now you call this a false prophecy. I’m pretty sure that you don’t mean that there is something in the bible that is false, but that you disagree with the SDA interpretation. So, here’s your chance. What is the CC’s take on these prophecies?
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rinnie
Guest
Yes we have been through this numerous times. And what you said completely disagrees with scripture. Baptism is not something we receive from faith Baptism is a free gift from God. Circumcision of the heart can not be done by faith it is done by Baptism. Faith cannot baptise you:shrug:
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rinnie
Guest
Richard you may have missed this, so I posted it againI have a question Richard. You claim that the SDA only teaches what the bible says right? Okay how do you teach the Sacred Tradtions that are passed down by word of mouth if they are not in the bible?
After all the bible does say to stay true to them does it not?
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Church_Militant
Guest
Yet what was the very Gospel message that Paul responded to at his conversion?
12 And one Ananias, a man according to the law, having testimony of all the Jews who dwelt there, 13 Coming to me, and standing by me, said to me: Brother Saul, look up. And I the same hour looked upon him. 14 But he said: The God of our fathers hath preordained thee that thou shouldst know his will, and see the Just One, and shouldst hear the voice from his mouth. 15 For thou shalt be his witness to all men, of those things which thou hast seen and heard. 16 And now why tarriest thou? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name.
And so, what expressly was the message that Paul himself recounts here as to the Gospel? Look at that last verse. It’s very clear.
And what was the Gospel message that the apostles preached on teh day of Pentecost?
Acts 2:37] Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”
38] And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39] For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”
The New Testament clearly teaches a baptism (and a Gospel) different from your own beliefs. If, as you profess, you believe the Bible as an authority, then how can you hold the beliefs you do in this matter that contradict the plain Word of God?
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Javl
Guest
Richard:
I have gone over it many times and have posted biblical references that we are no longer under the “old Law” and why we are not. Yet you insist that the “old Law” has not been abrogated for Christians and refuse to accept what Jesus said and what is written in scripture. You insist that you ( the SDA ) are correct and that the rest of Christianity is wrong. It took over 1800 years until Ellen White and the rest of the SDA came along to point out this “glaring error”? I think not.
If we were in error, don’t you think that God would have taken steps to correct it, and not have taken that long to do so? Evidence for this is in the Old Testament whenever the Jews strayed or sinned. I consider your and the SDA pushing us to adopt your version of the decalogue and Sabbatarianism is “foisting” your brand of theology on us.
Paraphrasing an old saying " One billion plus Christians cannot be wrong…".
PAX DOMINI
Shalom haMeshiach
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Richard_Kastner
Guest
No it doesn’t.
Baptism is not a gift from God it is a work that we perform.
Col2
10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Circumcision of the heart is what Paul is talking about here in Colossians. As you can see it is the circumcision done without hands which means it is not baptism and is accomlished **“through the faith of the operation of God” **After we are circumcised with the circumcision of Christ “in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh” (repentence)
Then and only then do we have ourselves baptised. A work that we have done to us as an announcement of that new life in Christ. Without that new life in Christ (repentance, being born again) baptism is useless.
Not the baptism with hands. But faith is the only thing that will baptise us with the Spirit.
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Richard_Kastner
Guest
Javal, Let’s look at Romans 6:14&15
14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
What is sin Javal, John defines sin as the transgression of the law.
1 John 3:4 (King James Version)
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
What law would that be? Well the Ten Commandments of coarse. So, what does Paul mean in Romans 6? What he is saying is that sin no longer has dominion over us because we have submitted ourselves to the grace of God in Jesus Christ and it is through His power that we gain victory over sin. That we no longer transgress the Ten Commandments. So, Paul asks the rehtorical question What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? The answer of coarse is, God forbid.
You say
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javl
Instead of your belief that the law must be “kept” ( for is was for the Jews alone ) as a sign of obedience to God, Jesus ( who IS God ) teaches that the Christian obeys God when he obeys the supreme commandment of love.
In Matt 22 The Pharasee lawyer asks Jesus 36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Then He makes a curious comment.
40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
So, we need to ask ourselves what He means by the law and the prophets? Well, this is the term that was used for scripture in Jesus time or the bible and the law refered to here is the law that God gave Moses including the Ten Commandments.
And the prophets talked to us of Jesus.
Revelation 19:10 (King James Version)
10b for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
See, the only function of God’s law is to show us that we are sinners.
Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
So, the law teaches us that we are sinners and the prophets show us the solution to that sin problem. IOW Gods plan of Salvation in Jesus is based on His law of love. He is not saying that the Ten Commandments have been done away with, only that they are based on love, but this has always been the case.
Leviticus 19:18
Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
Deuteronomy 6:5
And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
So God’s law of love is the Ten Commandments and they will be kept into eternity by His children, including the Sabbath.
Isaiah 66:22-23 (King James Version)
22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
In Christ Richard
Thought I would repost this. Maybe you didn’t read it closely enough last time. Let me ask you Javl. How do you keep God’s law of love without keeping the ten commandments?
PAX DOMINI
How many people got on the ark Javl?
Matt24
37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
When Jesus returns He is coming to get His people “that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” Rev14:12
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benidict
Guest
But there arose some of the pharisees that believed, saying: They must be circumcised, And be commanded to follow the law of moses. and the apostles and the ancients assembled to consider the matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter, rising up, said unto them: Men, bretheren, you know that in Former days God made a Choice amoung us, that by My mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the Gospel, and believe. And God who knoweth the hearts, gave testimony. giving unto them the Holy Ghost, as well as to us; and put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. NOW THEREFORE, WHY TEMPT YOU GOD TO PUT A YOKE UPON THE NECKS OF THE DISCIPLES, WHICH NEITHER OUR FATHERS NOR WE COULD BEAR? But the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, we believe to be saved, in like manner as they also. and all the multitude held their peace; and they heard Barnabas and Paul telling what great signs and wonders God had wrought amoung the Gentiles by them. continues
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benidict
Guest
And after they had held their peace, james answered saying: Men, bretheren, hear me. Simon hath related how God first visited to take of to the Gentiles a people to his name. and to this agree the the words of the prophets, as it is written. After these things I will return, and will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and the ruins thereof I will rebuild, and i will set it up That the residue of men, may sek after the Lord, who doth these things. To the Lord ws his own work known from the beginning of the world. For which cause I judge that They, who from amoung the Gentiles are Converted to God, ARE NOT TO BE DISQUIETED. BUT THAT WE WRITE UNTO THEM, THAT THEY REFRAIN THEMSELVES FROM THE POLUTIONS OF IDOLS, AND FROM FORNIFICATION, AND FROM THINGS STRANGLED, AND FROM BLOOD.For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him in the synagogues, where he is read every sabbath. continues. later. time for some sleep. peace
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Richard_Kastner
Guest
What do you think that yoke was Ben? Are you suggesting that this yoke is the ten commandments? So then if this is what you are saying after God gave the decalogue, Moses says
Deu.5
22These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
27Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it.
The Lord gives the children of Israel the ten commandments with His own mouth and writes them on stone with His own finger and they say they will do them then the Lord speaks to Moses.
28And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken.
29O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
30Go say to them, Get you into your tents again.
31But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it.
32Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left.
33Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess.
But you are saying that these words of God are done away with by this council in Jerusalem? Is that about it Ben?
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rinnie
Guest
[SIGN][/SIGN]
I agree with all my heart and soul. But you said that it is not a free gfit and operation from God you said we have to work for it
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rinnie
Guest
No Faith will not baptise us with the Holy Spirit. Gods death and res. on the cross is the free gift that is given to us at Baptism that baptises us with the Holy Spirit.
It was not faith in God that saved us from sin. If that were true Jesus would not have had to come. Do you deny the faith of our Father Abraham. Why is it that Abraham also need a Savior. It was by the death of Jesus on the cross that saved us from all sin and that Baptism is possible to take away that sin. Its called original sin, the sin we were all born into. Even Father Abraham.
If we were not born into Original sin we would not die. But we all had it just like Father Abraham because he died also.
Colossians 2:12 burned with him in baptism…raised with in in faith.
Tell me if our faith could say us why did Jesus have to die on the cross to take away sin. Are you saying when John was baptising people their faith was enough. Then why did John say one will come who will baptise you with the Spirit.
Why in Col. 2: Say that because of Christ they must reject all religions except for the Gospel of Christ. Why did he tell them that all they need is Baptism and they did not require the Old law Circumcision.
Why did Paul say that in Baptism their whole being has been effected by Christ through the forgiveness of sins and resurrection to a new life.
You continue to claim that we have to do something to have forgiveness of sins and eternal life. But you refuse to see that all have been done by Christ. You refuse to see that by the death of Christ he cancelled out the debt that stood against us will all the claims against the Old Law.
Why do you continue to be blind that Baptism is all that is necessary and when Paul is talking to the Col. he is telling them Salvation cannot be done by false spriits, dietary practices or though wisdom. That God in the Fullness of deity took away all sins with baptism.
You seem to be stuck on the Old Law that was wiped out. Clean slate by baptism and are very confused on Original Sin which is wiped away, and actual sin which we now do.
Baptism does not wipe out actual sin commited after baptism. It wipes out Original sin which is needed to be wiped out in order to enter heaven. Which requires Baptism.
You seem to be blind to the fact that OLD LAW is replaced with the now new Law. Now we must be Baptised, Then when we sin we must repent and confess and be reunited with Christ through confession. We do not have to confess, original sin. It is a FREE GIFT. Please reread the scripture now in the context it is written. Pray on it, meditate on it. I will pray for you that the Holy Spirit can show to you what Paul was teaching.
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rinnie
Guest
Richard still waiting for post 231:blush:
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me_again
Guest
Did Mother Mary have original sin and did she die a mortal death?
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Richard_Kastner
Guest
No, that is not what I said. This is what I said.[SIGN][/SIGN]
I agree with all my heart and soul. But you said that it is not a free gfit and operation from God you said we have to work for it
We don’t work for it. It is a work that we perform. The circumcision of the heart is accomplished. “in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:” After this is accomplished we have ourselves baptised (a work) to announce to the world that we belong to Jesus. Baptism has no power to impart grace. It has no power to save us. If it did we wouldn’t need the cross.
Rom.10
8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
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