Seventh day adventists??

[phummel]

This is totally off subject, but I have to tell somebody. I just learned how to multiquote!

Okay, I’m over that now.

Praise God!
Such silliness…

 

[phummel]

Hello happilycatholic!

I’m sorry, I truly didn’t mean to discourage you.

You didn’t, I was being sincere. You said “stay with me”.

As catholics we beleive God is of a divine nature (Holy Spirit) and a soul has a need to be attached to a body.
Therefor God doesn’t really have a soul per say. I had not heard the position you take among SDAs before.
So you believe that our souls are not immortal What about our spirit?
Do you find it a coinsidence that we are three natures in one just as God is? We are soul, spirit and body.

Maybe you could attribute that to the Spirit?

We do believe that there is body, soul, and spirit. Yes, we believe that our souls are not immortal.
I think the spirit is the life force that animates our bodies.
I have to admit I’m out of my element here - I probably should dig you up something official so I do not misrepresent SDA beliefs.
Fantastic, never thought of the trinity being expressed in our nature.

Fair enough but what about the other Scriptural references such as the one from Revelation?

From KJV:
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Just the smoke ascendeth for ever and ever, not the torment.

 

[phummel]

Hello all, happilycatholic, Patrick, Brooke:

I’m going to be traveling tonight so I won’t be able to catch up with your replies and notes until Sunday.
I am thoroughly enjoying your company and warm Christian attitudes.

God Bless you all - have a great weekend (and Sabbath ha, ha)

 

[Brooke]

It is not me or my works or wisdom but just allowing the Holy Spirit to work through me.
I pray that Christ can be reflected from me and not be blocked by me. I pray to stay humble.

I understand what you are trying to say. Yet, which is the Church where Jesus promised the holy spirit??

“And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it” Matthew 16:18

if Hades will not overcome it that means his Church is forever right? so how can it be forever after jesus dies? through the Holy Spirit correct? the Spirit guides the apostles to conduct the Church.

“I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.” John 10:16
But Why do i say this to you?? You do believe in only ONE Church right??

“'Go to this people and say,
“You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.” Acts 28:26-27
There are many people that although they see it with their own eyes they do not believe it…

Im sure one day the Holy Spirit will enable you to see which is the right Church…

blessings!

 

[Brooke]

Hello all, happilycatholic, Patrick, Brooke:

I’m going to be traveling tonight so I won’t be able to catch up with your replies and notes until Sunday.
I am thoroughly enjoying your company and warm Christian attitudes.

God Bless you all - have a great weekend (and Sabbath ha, ha)

Sense of humor always comes in handy. he he. enjoy your weekend and your sabbath!

 

[happilycatholic]

Hello all, happilycatholic, Patrick, Brooke:

I’m going to be traveling tonight so I won’t be able to catch up with your replies and notes until Sunday.
I am thoroughly enjoying your company and warm Christian attitudes.

God Bless you all - have a great weekend (and Sabbath ha, ha)

God Speed and Happy Sabbath!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

This is totally off subject, but I have to tell somebody. I just learned how to multiquote!

Okay, I’m over that now.

Hi HC!

I can relate totally to your excitement…it took me about a year to figure that out…lol

But there is a whole new world waiting for you out there now!!!

It is nice to be posting with you on the same thread once again! I hope all is well with you and yours!!!

Patrick

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Thank you for the additional proof texts (humor).
I still have doubts about whether Christ would approve of the RC theocracy.
Even more so, I question [Saint] Augustine’s theory of a just war. It opened up too many doors for abuse. blah, blah, blah

So true. I have a deep respect for the RC stance against abortion.
Since I believe in a God who gives us freedom to sin, I want to extend the same freedom to all my brothers and sisters.
However, abortion is so repugnant, it’s hard to defend that position in this instance.

Hi Paul,

As you may or may not know, the foundation of Libertarianism is Non-agression, either against a person’s physical body or their property. I held, and still do hold, very strongly to that principle. So much so that during the Iraq invasion I marveled at the admonitions and pleadings of both Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI that the US take time to consider other means…espcially after the 10 years of devastation Iraq suffered through in the continous bombings and embargoes of the Clinton years. I think the UN figures on deaths during that time were about 500,000, many of which were children who lacked food and medical supplies. I remember Madeline Albright being asked on one of the Sunday morning news/talk shows if she thought that is was worth it. She replied that yes, the collateral damage was worth it or something to that effect. If anyone would like to see the actual transcript, just let me know and I will find it and provide a link to it.

Anyway, I was impressed with the Catholic Church’s stand for life on that issue as well as the stand it has always taken regarding abortion. I studied up a bit on Catholic Just War Theory and it is actually very consistent with Libertarian Non-agression principle. I have even read articles by a Cardinal who said that in this day and age of nuclear weapons there may very well never be another Just War.

While many Libertarians are pro-choice, at least intellectually honest as compared with many pro-choice proponents who are not…I personally think abortion violates the Non-agression principle, as do many Christian Libertarians. You see the pro-choice Libertarian stand on abortion is that the fetus is not part of the mother’s body as many pro-choice people argue that it is. The pro-choice Libertarians see it as a completely serperate entity, which I also agree with. But where I see the baby as a human being, they see it as a parasite. Very sad.

Anyway, I just wanted to make that point regarding The Catholic Church positions on life in each of those situations…which is very rare in this world, and more sadly very rare in the Christian community at large.

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

That is amazing.! Well im glad the Holy Spirit found you and led you to where you are today. hopefully many will find their way as well as you have, HOPEFULLY with your help. i know sombody very dear to me, and i have been battling with myself as to how to begin to explain to him the Catholic Church and to how to show him that it is indeed His Church. He is a Seventh-Day Adventist and i just do not know where to begin. Any advise? i was thinking maybe authority?? any help is appretiated!! thanks in advance.

May God bless us all as he has to this day.

Hi Brooke,

We/they were/are very difficult to get through to. It is amazing how much tunnel vision they have reading the scriptures…that was my problem too…we read the scriptures through the eyes of Ellen White thereby adding things to scripture that aren’t there and taking things away from scripture that are there.

I would suggest that you take some time and read throught the websites in my signature below. There are many very good scholarly and Biblical articles that refute Adventist doctrine.

I will keep you and your Adventist friend in my daily prayers!

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Also Pat,

like i said, about really understanding the bible, the very own scripture tells us in Acts 8:26-31

"Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Go south to the road—the desert road—that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians. This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship, and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the book of Isaiah the prophet. The Spirit told Philip, “Go to that chariot and stay near it.” Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked. “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

How can people say they truly understand and know the scripture when its clear that everyone needs guidance in understanding what Our Savior said and meant throughout the bible??

That is an excellent point Brooke! Having read your previous posts and your knowledge and use of scripture, I would say you don’t need too much help at all talking with Adventists. Your points are clear and on subject! Keep up the good work!!

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

hello pat,
i was wondering, how did they “work” as raising their family? [before sin entered the world, that is] if before sin it was only adam & eve, they had no kids yet. tending the garden? is this in the scripture? caring for the creation? all adam did was name the creaters didnt he?

i would love to hear just how you mean that they worked prior to sin. thx!

Hi Brooke,

Thank you for pointing this out. Sometimes typing replies too fast prevents necessary editing and fact checks.

There is no Biblical record of Adam and Eve having children before the fall. I should clarify that it seems pretty clear that God intended their marriage to bear fruit just like the rest of the life in the Garden. So no kids before the fall…but I do believe that was the plan for Paradise.

Tending the garden is in scripture as the task for man before the fall, as well as naming the animals…see Genesis 2:15 and beyond up to chapter 3.

I love how carefully Catholics read the scriptures!!!

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Hello happilycatholic!

From KJV:
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Just the smoke ascendeth for ever and ever, not the torment.

Hi Paul,

Now don’t forget to read the rest of that verse talking about for ever and ever…I highlighted it in red. A little difficult to not be tormented when you are not getting rest day or night. And if they are not getting rest, they certainly have not been anhilated or destroyed forever…just a thought!

Hope you had a nice Sabbath!

God bless all!!!

 

[Middleman]

it just fit? do you really believe since it just “fit” your lifestyle so well that that makes it alright?

There is a lack of unity in the Catholic Church regarding healthy living that is disheartening to me at times. I’ve always found the SDA concern for our bodies an attractive thing

robotic congregations!!! that amazes me… i mean the gathering at least once a week to give thanks to God doesnt at all seem “robotic” to me… i see it necessary, joyful and i dont know just completely wonderful… mayb its need for the Holy Spirit… but how do i know? just a thought…?

by dissecting? you mean thoroughly taking part by part the Catholic doctrine and explaining it?
I agree with him, I see a lot of “robotic” behavior in many Catholic Masses, as people perform their duty then bolt out the door to the Mall. The Catholic emphasis on etiquette and rubrics contributes to this unfortunate reality

Blessings

 

[jargon631]

so u are non christian non adventist. none period? dont you feel you are mising something? if not, would you have joined this forum? where you know most all that goes on here is talk about your Savior???
awaiting your response…

none at all…no i dont feel as if something is missing and i joined the forum because i wanted to find ex-sda’s with similar experiences…fd

 

[phummel]

There is a lack of unity in the Catholic Church regarding healthy living that is disheartening to me at times. I’ve always found the SDA concern for our bodies an attractive thing

Hello Middleman,
I think you’ll find that smart churches know, you can win new converts by first alleviating/healing their physical pains. SDA used the health message to attract new followers. However, it really should be a universal Christian message. This could be part of your testimony which you could share. It’s definitely part of mine!

• Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit.
• We do not own our bodies - God does - He created us and then redeemed them for us again. We should take care of these bodies and show God that we appreciate the gift He gave us.
• We should be living testimonies for God. Our bodies should glorify God. People should look at us and know we are God’s people.
• If we don’t take care of ourselves, we will have ailments, sickness, and pain. This will cloud and occupy our minds. It will keep us from being able to fully commune with God and do His works.

I’m rambling. I pray for your good health.

 

[phummel]

Hi Paul,

As you may or may not know, the foundation of Libertarianism is Non-agression, either against a person’s physical body or their property. I held, and still do hold, very strongly to that principle. So much so that during the Iraq invasion I marveled at the admonitions and pleadings of both Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI that the US take time to consider other means…espcially after the 10 years of devastation Iraq suffered through in the continous bombings and embargoes of the Clinton years. I think the UN figures on deaths during that time were about 500,000, many of which were children who lacked food and medical supplies. I remember Madeline Albright being asked on one of the Sunday morning news/talk shows if she thought that is was worth it. She replied that yes, the collateral damage was worth it or something to that effect. If anyone would like to see the actual transcript, just let me know and I will find it and provide a link to it.

Anyway, I was impressed with the Catholic Church’s stand for life on that issue as well as the stand it has always taken regarding abortion. I studied up a bit on Catholic Just War Theory and it is actually very consistent with Libertarian Non-agression principle. I have even read articles by a Cardinal who said that in this day and age of nuclear weapons there may very well never be another Just War.

While many Libertarians are pro-choice, at least intellectually honest as compared with many pro-choice proponents who are not…I personally think abortion violates the Non-agression principle, as do many Christian Libertarians. You see the pro-choice Libertarian stand on abortion is that the fetus is not part of the mother’s body as many pro-choice people argue that it is. The pro-choice Libertarians see it as a completely serperate entity, which I also agree with. But where I see the baby as a human being, they see it as a parasite. Very sad.

Anyway, I just wanted to make that point regarding The Catholic Church positions on life in each of those situations…which is very rare in this world, and more sadly very rare in the Christian community at large.

God bless all!!!

Hi Patrick,

We seem to have many things in common. I have libertarian leanings too and appreciate you sharing. I’m glad you are in harmony with your church.

Hmmmm…I like that approach…but it existed a long time before Wesley. I believe it started with an organization called…The Catholic Church!

Yes, I appreciate the non sola scriptura approach, and think the Catholic Church has avoided many trappings we find in fundamental evangelism and literalism.

God bless you.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Hello Middleman,
I think you’ll find that smart churches know, you can win new converts by first alleviating/healing their physical pains. SDA used the health message to attract new followers. However, it really should be a universal Christian message. This could be part of your testimony which you could share. It’s definitely part of mine!

• Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit.
• We do not own our bodies - God does - He created us and then redeemed them for us again. We should take care of these bodies and show God that we appreciate the gift He gave us.
• We should be living testimonies for God. Our bodies should glorify God. People should look at us and know we are God’s people.
• If we don’t take care of ourselves, we will have ailments, sickness, and pain. This will cloud and occupy our minds. It will keep us from being able to fully commune with God and do His works.

I’m rambling. I pray for your good health.

Hi Paul,

You aren’t rambling…you are making very good points! I’m sure you are familiar with the work of alleviating suffering performed by dedicated Nuns, Priests, Religious, and Lay Catholics all over the world in feeding, clothing, healing, and caring courageously in some of the worst conditions on earth.

The Catholic Church does, and always has, taught about taking care of our bodies and glorifying God in all we do.

Virtures: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1809.htm

Vices: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1866.htm

Our bodies in The Body of Christ as a living temple: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/797.htm

In each of the links above, there is a place to click to read the entire section from which each paragraph is taken. Great reading and study!!

God bless all!!!

 

[Middleman]

Hello Middleman,
I think you’ll find that smart churches know, you can win new converts by first alleviating/healing their physical pains. SDA used the health message to attract new followers. However, it really should be a universal Christian message. This could be part of your testimony which you could share. It’s definitely part of mine!

• Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit.
• We do not own our bodies - God does - He created us and then redeemed them for us again. We should take care of these bodies and show God that we appreciate the gift He gave us.
• We should be living testimonies for God. Our bodies should glorify God. People should look at us and know we are God’s people.
• If we don’t take care of ourselves, we will have ailments, sickness, and pain. This will cloud and occupy our minds. It will keep us from being able to fully commune with God and do His works.

I’m rambling. I pray for your good health.

Thank you for your prayers. I agree with your post. Meanwhile, my church serves cheap, unhealthy donuts after the 10 AM Mass, therefore our family avoids the socializing time in order to shield our children from even more junk food.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Thank you for your prayers. I agree with your post. Meanwhile, my church serves cheap, unhealthy donuts after the 10 AM Mass, therefore our family avoids the socializing time in order to shield our children from even more junk food.

Hi Middleman,

Why don’t you take a nice fresh fruit tray to the social after 10 AM Mass…that way you can avoid the junk and not the socializing time!!

God bless all!!!

 

[MarysRoses]

Hello Middleman,

Yes, we believe in soul sleep. Basically, we believe when people die, they are dead, and then when Christ returns, we are resurrected. We don’t believe in an immortal soul. It is through our resurrection, that we are given everlasting life. We don’t believe in an eternal torment of Hell. Rather we believe the wicked will be destroyed completely by Hell fire.

Wikipedia does a nice job of summarizing the proof texts we use for soul sleep:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_sleep

Check-out Fundamental Beliefs 25-28 for more details on Heaven, Hell, and afterlife:
adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

For me it starts with a loving picture of our Father. I can’t believe that He would sadistic and demand eternal torment. What an awful thing to contemplate the torment of a lost loved one.

Hope that helps,
paul

When translating scripture, enormous effort is made to choose English words and phrases which will transmit the meaning of the original language as closely as possible. The idea that some words have special meanings in the context of the bible, would mean that the translators intentionally used some kind of special dictionary or code for the translation, ignoring standard English. Adventist explanations often depend on a unique interpretation of certain proof texts. Such as the idea that “forever” only means the results of the punishment, not the punishment itself.

(Rev 20:10 NASB) And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Greek word for tormented has the idea of an ordeal. Torment and Torture are not inappropriate translations. Future passive indicative - They shall be (contiuously experiencing) tormented (ongoing future action). day and night are genitive, this means they are directly describing the action of the verb - of (belonging too, closely associate with) of the day and of the night. Then the preposition “eis” which means into or leading into, and this is not the weaker implied “into” but an emphatic use of the prepotion… into what?

Into the “eos ton eon”. Age of Ages. The root of eos is eo-. The word we know in English as eon. An age. So what does this ongoing action which is ongoing day and night lead into? The age of ages. forever. Eternity. Similar idioms, King of Kings, Lord of Lords. The age of ages. This is a superlative, not a weak idiom. This isn’t a phrase a greek speaker chooses when they want to say ‘until it is done’.

I remember this verse very clearly. One of my Greek classes was taught by an SDA professor. One of the few willing to tackle the inconsistencies between Adventist theology and the bible. I remember the consternation of the men in the class preparing to be SDA pastors. They had always been taught that the results of the act were eternal, not the act. They had been taught that forever can mean ‘until it is finished’, not eternity. By the end of the second year, most Greek students grasp enough grammar to see that verse for what it is saying, not what they would like it to say.

The Adventist explanation remains that the phrase ‘into the age of ages’ is an idiom that can mean eternity or it can mean until something is finished. The fact that the contemporary evidence (first century koine greek writers using the term to mean until it is finished) for this usage is entirely lacking is overlooked.

(cont. Next Post)