Seventh Day Adventists

[Richard_Kastner]

So here are my genuine questions to all the SDA brothers and sisters on this forum: (Im not trying to debate here, just want to understand at this point)

1. Do SDAs still hold that Michael the archangel and Jesus are the same person like EGW taught, or has this been abandoned by modern SDAs?

I don’t know if Ellen White taught this or not. I have only seen it presented as a logical conclusion from scripture. This from the SDA bible commentary on Jude 9: Michael. This commentary holds the view that “Michael” is one of the names of Christ (see on Dan. 10:13; 1 Thess. 4:16; Rev. 12:7), not as the chief angel but as ruler over the angels
Nichol, Francis D.: The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 7. Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1978; 2002, S. 706

and 1Thess. 4:16Archangel. Gr. archaggelos, “chief angel,” “first angel,” compounded from archi, a prefix denoting “chief,” or “high,” and aggelos, “angel,” hence, “chief of the angels.” The word archaggelos appears in the NT only here and in Jude 9, where Michael is said to be the archangel. This commentary holds the view that Michael is none other than our Lord, Jesus Christ (see on Dan. 10:13; Jude 9; Rev. 12:7). This interpretation makes it possible to conceive of Christ’s own voice, as the voice of the archangel, being heard as He descends (see on Jude 9).

Nichol, Francis D.: The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 7. Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1978; 2002, S. 249

1. I keep hearing from SDAs that the Pope has some title that is 666. What is your evidence to say that the pope uses or used such a title?

This on Michael Schiefler’s Bible Light website. biblelight.net/666.htm#OFFICIAL

1. Do SDAs currently believe that the Catholic church was always evil/demonic, or was it just for a certain time period, or after Constantine?

Rev.13

1. What constitutes work for SDAs on the sabath? It is understandably much different from what I experienced when working in a Jewish synagogue for 3years. Is there a SDA teaching or guidelines or is it up to each individual to figure out what is work to them?

Isaiah58:13If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

 

[Javl]

Sorry to say, but the explanation and scripture references that have been presented are exactly the same as what the Jehovahs Witnesses ( Watchtower Bible and Tract Society ) present. We know that the WTBS is a false outfit, so the explanation should/has to be false also. So who came up with the idea first, the SDA or the WBTS?

According to scripture Michael the ArchAngel was created. Now, isn’t Jesus begotten of the Father? I was always under the impression that begotten does not mean made or created. I am begotten of my parents. I don’t think they made me. I thought that my God made me. But then I may be wrong.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

P.S. The latest WBTS update is that Jesus is the first creation of God. I guess that fits in with their translation of John 1:1-3.

Now if Jesus is The Word, and He made all things and nothing was made that He didn’t make, and according to Isaiah 44;2 and Isaiah 44:24 only God created everything, if Jesus made everything and nothing was made that He didn’t make then how did He create ( make ) Himself? Seems like Moibus is involved in this one.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Richard,

I only wish to address your remark about this quote from Nochol…

I don’t know if Ellen White taught this or not. I have only seen it presented as a logical conclusion from scripture. This from the SDA bible commentary on Jude 9: Michael. This commentary holds the view that “Michael” is one of the names of Christ (see on Dan. 10:13; 1 Thess. 4:16; Rev. 12:7), not as the chief angel but as ruler over the angels
Nichol, Francis D.: The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 7. Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1978; 2002, S. 706

and ask you if you think this is a “…logical conclusion…”
Here are the verses identified:

Maybe we should look at those verses and see what is said…
**
Daniel 10:4-21, 11:1**

As I looked up, I saw a man dressed in linen with a belt of fine gold around his waist. His body was like chrysolite, his face shown like lightning, his eyes were like fiery torches, his arms and feet looked like burnished bronze, and his voice sounded like the roar of a multitude. I alone, Daniel, saw the vision; but great fear seized the men who were with me; they fled and hid themselves, although they did not see the vision. So I was left alone, seeing this great vision. No strength remained in me; I turned the color of death and was powerless. When I heard the sound of his voice, I fell face forward in a faint. But then a hand touched me, raising me to my hands and knees. “Daniel, beloved,” he said to me, “understand the words which I am speaking to you; stand up, for my mission now is to you.” When he said this to me, I stood up trembling. “Fear not, Daniel,” he continued; “from the first day you made up your mind to acquire understanding and humble yourself before God, your prayer was heard. Because of it I started out, but the prince of the kingdom of Persia stood in my way for twenty-one days, until finally Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me. I left him there with the prince of the kings of Persia, and came to make you understand what shall happen to your people in the days to come; for there is yet a vision concerning those days.” While he was speaking thus to me, I fell forward and kept silent. Then something like a man’s hand touched my lips; I opened my mouth and said to the one facing me, “My lord, I was seized with pangs at the vision and I was powerless. How can my lord’s servant speak with you, my lord? For now no strength or even breath is left in me.” The one who looked like a man touched me again and strengthened me, saying, “Fear not, beloved, you are safe; take courage and be strong.” When he spoke to me, I grew strong and said, “Speak, my lord, for you have strengthened me.” “Do you know,” he asked, "why I have come to you? Soon I must fight the prince of Persia again. When I leave, the prince of Greece will come; but I shall tell you what is written in the truthful book. No one supports me against all these except Michael, your prince, standing as a reinforcement and a bulwark for me.

1Thess 4:13-18
We do not want you to be unaware, brothers, about those who have fallen asleep, so that you may not grieve like the rest, who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so too will God, through Jesus, bring with him those who have fallen asleep. Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore, console one another with these words.

Rev 12:1-9

A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth. Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems. Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth. She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne. The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days. Then war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels battled against the dragon. The dragon and its angels fought back, but they did not prevail and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.

Having read these, I honestly can not see how anyone can ‘conclude’ that Jesus Christ is one of the persons identified in this so that it could be even cofused with the archangel Michael. Note in Rev that the un-namedChild is born (Christ?) and leaves and Michael then comes to do battle witht the dragon. As I see it we have two different persons here.

God bless

 

[KathleenGee]

The Mormons also use ‘Michael’ for Adam…and they also came out of the Campbell/Stone movement.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

According to scripture Michael the ArchAngel was created.

Please show me the scripture that states this. If you can perhaps I need to change my thinking. But the fact that you say: “According to scripture Michael the ArchAngel was created” proves nothing.

P.S. The latest WBTS update is that Jesus is the first creation of God. I guess that fits in with their translation of John 1:1-3.

What does WBTS stand for and what is their translation/interpretation of Jn.1:1-3

Now if Jesus is The Word, and He made all things and nothing was made that He didn’t make, and according to Isaiah 44;2 and Isaiah 44:24 only God created everything, if Jesus made everything and nothing was made that He didn’t make then how did He create ( make ) Himself? Seems like Moibus is involved in this one.

Your straw man reasoning that it says in the bible that Michael was created and if Michael is Jesus then God created Himself just doesn’t work. Because to the best of my knowledge, it does not say anywhere in the bible that Michael is created. If you can provide such a text as I say I will probably have to change my thinking. Until then as far as I’m concerned Michael is Jesus.

 

[greggy53]

Because to the best of my knowledge, it does not say anywhere in the bible that Michael is created. If you can provide such a text as I say I will probably have to change my thinking. Until then as far as I’m concerned Michael is Jesus.

There is no reference anywhere in scripture that Jesus and Michael are the same either.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Hi, Richard,

I only wish to address your remark about this quote from Nochol…

and ask you if you think this is a “…logical conclusion…”
Here are the verses identified:

Maybe we should look at those verses and see what is said…
**
Daniel 10:4-21, 11:1**

Because of it I started out, but the prince of the kingdom of Persia stood in my way for twenty-one days, until finally Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me. .

The one phrase that I had a problem with is the one here that I have emboldened. I looked up the word for one in Strongs and I got this:

1. Transliteration
   ‘echad Pronunciation
   ekh·äd’ (Key)
   Part of Speech
   TWOT Reference
   61
   Outline of Biblical Usage

1. one (number)
   a) one (number)
   b) each, every
   c) a certain
   d) an (indefinite article)
   e) only, once, once for all
   f) one…another, the one…the other, one after another, one by one
   g) first
   h) eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal)

So, this phrase could validly be translated “first of the chief princes”

Having read these, I honestly can not see how anyone can ‘conclude’ that Jesus Christ is one of the persons identified in this so that it could be even cofused with the archangel Michael. Note in Rev that the un-namedChild is born (Christ?) and leaves and Michael then comes to do battle witht the dragon. As I see it we have two different persons here.

God bless

I see Jesus as the chief of the angels or the archangel. So for me there is no confusion.

As for your take on Rev 12 You say:

Note in Rev that the un-namedChild is born (Christ?) and leaves and Michael then comes to do battle witht the dragon. As I see it we have two different persons here.

Here’s the passage:

5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

The man-child (Jesus) is caught up to God. He doesn’t "leave"

6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

You have to remember that Rev. does not follow a cronological progression. So the war that breaks out in heaven is long before the woman (God’s church) or Jesus’ earthly incarnation. So, I don’t see any conflict here at all. Jesus the first of the chief angels leads those angels to throw Satan and his angels out of heaven.

There is also this. Dan.10:21But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
The angel Gabriel that tells this to Daniel calls “Michael your prince”. Do you really think that Gabriel would refer to another angel like him as Daniel’s prince.

Also in 1 Thess.4:16 says: For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, Does this not mean that the Lord’s voice is the voice of the archangel?

But the most compelling evidence for Michael being Jesus is Dan.12:1 1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Let me ask you Tom. Who is the only one capable of standing up for the people written in the Lambs’ book of life?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

There is no reference anywhere in scripture that Jesus and Michael are the same either.

Javl’s complete argument is based on this statement.

According to scripture Michael the ArchAngel was created.

This statement is just not true. Now, I know that it doesn’t expressly state that Michael and Jesus are the same, however I find the evidence as I have shown in my answer to tqualey to be most compelling.

 

[greggy53]

So, I don’t see any conflict here at all. Jesus the first of the chief angels leads those angels to throw Satan and his angels out of heaven.

But it doesn’t say anything like that anywhere in the scriptures?..This is pure conjecture.

There is also this. Dan.10:21But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
The angel Gabriel that tells this to Daniel calls “Michael your prince”. Do you really think that Gabriel would refer to another angel like him as Daniel’s prince.

Who are we to think what one angel might say to or about another angel? Why wouldn’t he?..Is it because he uses the word “prince”. Do you thnk that the word “prince” can only apply to Jesus therefore anyone in the bible called “prince” must be Jesus?..Again inference and conjecture.

Also in 1 Thess.4:16 says: For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, Does this not mean that the Lord’s voice is the voice of the archangel?

No it doesn’t .The angel is the herald announcing and proclaiming with
God’s trumpet…not God himself. Nothing there even remotely hints that they are the same entity.

But the most compelling evidence for Michael being Jesus is Dan.12:1 1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Let me ask you Tom. Who is the only one capable of standing up for the people written in the Lambs’ book of life?

Angels have intervened many times in history. Why wouldn’t the archangel Michael be able to help Gods people? He is after all the patron saint of soldiers. You are telling us that because he is called a “prince” that he must be Jesus himself??? No such comparison is made here nor elsewhere in scripture.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

But it doesn’t say anything like that anywhere in the scriptures?..This is pure conjecture.

Who are we to think what one angel might say to or about another angel? Why wouldn’t he?..Is it because he uses the word “prince”. Do you thnk that the word “prince” can only apply to Jesus therefore anyone in the bible called “prince” must be Jesus?..Again inference and conjecture.

No it doesn’t .The angel is the herald announcing and proclaiming with
God’s trumpet…not God himself. Nothing there even remotely hints that they are the same entity.

Angels have intervened many times in history. Why wouldn’t the archangel Michael be able to help Gods people? He is after all the patron saint of soldiers. You are telling us that because he is called a “prince” that he must be Jesus himself??? No such comparison is made here nor elsewhere in scripture.

Alright so you don’t see it. To me it’s very clear.

 

[Javl]

Please show me the scripture that states this. If you can perhaps I need to change my thinking. But the fact that you say: “According to scripture Michael the ArchAngel was created” proves nothing.

What does WBTS stand for and what is their translation/interpretation of Jn.1:1-3

Your straw man reasoning that it says in the bible that Michael was created and if Michael is Jesus then God created Himself just doesn’t work. Because to the best of my knowledge, it does not say anywhere in the bible that Michael is created. If you can provide such a text as I say I will probably have to change my thinking. Until then as far as I’m concerned Michael is Jesus.

Gee. Am I wrong? Here I thought that God created all the angels ( including Michael ). Or are they also divine like God is and were not created but were all begotten of the Father?

WBTS stands for Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, the parent organization of the Jehovahs Witnesses. I did mention this before. And, their interpretation of Jn 1-1-3 is that Jesus is a god, Not God.

Also, just because something is not mentioned in the Bible ( like the Trinity ) does not mean it is not so.

And, plenty of evidence has been given you to prove that Jesus is NOT Michael, but you jump and dance around it with what you call your reasoning. Talk about straw men. Next you will be saying that Jesus, Michael, and Adam are one and the same. Sheesh.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[greggy53]

Alright so you don’t see it. To me it’s very clear.

Well I’m going to keep this in my back pocket for the next time an SDA accuses the Catholic Church of inventing doctrine not found in scripture.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Gee. Am I wrong? Here I thought that God created all the angels ( including Michael ). Or are they also divine like God is and were not created but were all begotten of the Father?

The word angel means messenger. Consider Rev. 14:6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Javl, Who does God give the everlasting gospel to preach to the world? Is it one of the heavenly host? Ihave never heard an angel from heaven preaching the gospel. Have you?
2Cor.5:18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

God gives to us the ministry of reconciliation (gospel) We are that angel of Rev 14:6 Is it such a stretch to think of Jesus as the ultimate angel

Heb.1: 1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Also, just because something is not mentioned in the Bible ( like the Trinity ) does not mean it is not so.

Ya, I’m aware of this, however this is what you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javl
According to scripture Michael the ArchAngel was created.

I was simply answering this erroneos statement.

And, plenty of evidence has been given you to prove that Jesus is NOT Michael

Like what?

but you jump and dance around it with what you call your reasoning. Talk about straw men. Next you will be saying that Jesus, Michael, and Adam are one and the same. Sheesh.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Look, Javl If you want to have a civil discussion I am willing to engage. If however you want to make smug, patronizing, sarcastic comments you can talk to yourself.

 

[Javl]

The word angel means messenger. Consider Rev. 14:6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Javl, Who does God give the everlasting gospel to preach to the world? Is it one of the heavenly host? Ihave never heard an angel from heaven preaching the gospel. Have you?
2Cor.5:18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

God gives to us the ministry of reconciliation (gospel) We are that angel of Rev 14:6 Is it such a stretch to think of Jesus as the ultimate angel

Heb.1: 1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Yes. Angel means messenger, but Jesus is no messenger.

Ya, I’m aware of this, however this is what you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javl
According to scripture Michael the ArchAngel was created.

I was simply answering this erroneos statement.

What about Isaiah 44:24 and John 1:1-3? Or, again, aren’t the angels created beings?

Quote:
And, plenty of evidence has been given you to prove that Jesus is NOT Michael

Like what?

tqualey, for one has presented evidence that Jesus is not, and can not, be Michael. And I also say, according to Isaiah an John, that Michael is a created being and not begotten like Jesus is.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Yes. Angel means messenger, but Jesus is no messenger.

Javl, why do you think I included the verses from Hebrews.
Heb.1: 1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

God speaks to us by His Son. I don’t care how you cut it, that makes Jesus a messenger.

What about Isaiah 44:24 and John 1:1-3? Or, again, aren’t the angels created beings?

Jn1: 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

24Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself

I don’t get it. How do these show that Michael is not Jesus? You only have a point if you assume that Michael is not Jesus. I am saying that Michael is Jesus. So these verses don’t apply. Unless of coarse you are saying that Jesus created Himself. Which of coarse is ridiculous.

tqualey, for one has presented evidence that Jesus is not, and can not, be Michael. And I also say, according to Isaiah an John, that Michael is a created being and not begotten like Jesus is.

Here’s what Tom says about his own so called proof.

Having read these, I honestly can not see how anyone can ‘conclude’ that Jesus Christ is one of the persons identified in this so that it could be even cofused with the archangel Michael.

Tom merely gives the scriptures where Michael is mentioned and then says that he can’t see how anyone could conclude from them how Michael is Jesus. He doesn’t even say that they are any kind of proof only that he cannot see it. A couple of posts after this one I give a fairly comprehensive evaluation of his post. I suggest you read it. As for your so-called proof texts. See above.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Richard,

To the best of my knowledge, Michael, Gabriel and Raphael are created spirits – the Good Angels.

Tell me, why do you think Christ needs an alias? Honest. Why do you think the Son of Man needs to go by another name when He has the holiest of names?

Please show me the scripture that states this. If you can perhaps I need to change my thinking. But the fact that you say: “According to scripture Michael the ArchAngel was created” proves nothing.

What does WBTS stand for and what is their translation/interpretation of Jn.1:1-3
The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. Here is a link: watchtower.org/

Your straw man reasoning that it says in the bible that Michael was created and if Michael is Jesus then God created Himself just doesn’t work. Because to the best of my knowledge, it does not say anywhere in the bible that Michael is created. If you can provide such a text as I say I will probably have to change my thinking. Until then as far as I’m concerned Michael is Jesus.

This really was not a ‘straw man’ … in fact, I gave you the three Scriptural referencs you provided and identified that Michael and Jesus are really two different persons - you have not yet gotten around to responding to that …but, it isn’t a ‘straw man’ either. Instead of being dismissive, consider that maybe you have not fully read all of these scriptures - as opposed to little snippets from which any fanciful idea sounds reasonable.

God bless

 

[Javl]

Javl, why do you think I included the verses from Hebrews.
Heb.1: 1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

God speaks to us by His Son. I don’t care how you cut it, that makes Jesus a messenger.

OK. If, as you say, Jesus is a messenger then the Holy Spirit, who is God, also was an angel originally, since he is sent by the Father and the Son.

Jn1: 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

24Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself

We all believe that Jesus, as the Son of God, is the word, as John 1:1-3 says that all things were made by Him and without Him nothing was made that was made. Then by your understanding, it was Michael the Archangel, before all eternity, who created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. ( Gen 1 )

I don’t get it. How do these show that Michael is not Jesus? You only have a point if you assume that Michael is not Jesus. I am saying that Michael is Jesus. So these verses don’t apply. Unless of coarse you are saying that Jesus created Himself. Which of coarse is ridiculous.

But they do apply, and it is ridiculous to assume that Jesus made Himself.

Here’s what Tom says about his own so called proof.

Tom merely gives the scriptures where Michael is mentioned and then says that he can’t see how anyone could conclude from them how Michael is Jesus. He doesn’t even say that they are any kind of proof only that he cannot see it. A couple of posts after this one I give a fairly comprehensive evaluation of his post. I suggest you read it. As for your so-called proof texts. See above.

I still ask that how can Michael be Jesus, if Jesus as the Son of God, and God, is begotten of the Father? God has never said to any of His angels “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” ( Ps 2:7; Heb 1:5-7 ), or “Sit here at my right side until I put your enemies as a footstool under your feet” ( Ps 101:1 ; Heb 1:13 ).

The angels were created and not begotten. Since Michael was an angel, he too was created. ( Col 1: 15-19 ). If this is not proof enough, then I do not know what is.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Hi, Richard,

To the best of my knowledge, Michael, Gabriel and Raphael are created spirits – the Good Angels.

To the best of my knowledge Michael and Jesus are one and the same and is not created but the creator. Gabriel is a created being and one of the heavenly host. Raphael I am not familiar with.

Tell me, why do you think Christ needs an alias? Honest. Why do you think the Son of Man needs to go by another name when He has the holiest of names?

I don’t know why or if Jesus needs “an alias” as you put it. I just know that He has many, many names.
Advocate (1 John 2:1)
Almighty (Rev. 1:8; Mt. 28:18)
Alpha and Omega (Rev. 1:8; 22:13)
Amen (Rev. 3:14)
Apostle of our Profession (Heb. 3:1)
Atoning Sacrifice for our Sins (1 John 2:2)
Author of Life (Acts 3:15)
Author and Perfecter of our Faith (Heb. 12:2)
Author of Salvation (Heb. 2:10)
Beginning and End (Rev. 22:13)
Blessed and only Ruler (1 Tim. 6:15)
Bread of God (John 6:33)
Bread of Life (John 6:35; 6:48)
Bridegroom (Mt. 9:15)
Capstone (Acts 4:11; 1 Pet. 2:7)
Chief Cornerstone (Eph. 2:20)
Chief Shepherd (1 Pet. 5:4)
Christ (1 John 2:22)
Creator (John 1:3)
Deliverer (Rom. 11:26)
Eternal Life (1 John 1:2; 5:20)
Faithful and True (Rev. 19:11)
Faithful Witness (Rev. 1:5)
Faithful and True Witness (Rev. 3:14)
First and Last (Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13)
Firstborn From the Dead (Rev. 1:5)
Firstborn over all creation (Col. 1:15)
Gate (John 10:9)
God (John 1:1; 20:28; Heb. 1:8; Rom. 9:5; 2 Pet. 1:1;1 John 5:20; etc.)
Good Shepherd (John 10:11,14)
Great Shepherd (Heb. 13:20)
Great High Priest (Heb. 4:14)
Head of the Church (Eph. 1:22; 4:15; 5:23)
Heir of all things (Heb. 1:2)
High Priest (Heb. 2:17)
Holy and True (Rev. 3:7)
Holy One (Acts 3:14)
Hope (1 Tim. 1:1)
Hope of Glory (Col. 1:27)
Horn of Salvation (Luke 1:69)
I Am (John 8:58)
Image of God (2 Cor. 4:4)
Immanuel (Mt. 1:23)
Judge of the living and the dead (Acts 10:42)
King Eternal (1 Tim. 1:17)
King of Israel (John 1:49)
King of the Jews (Mt. 27:11)
King of kings (1 Tim 6:15; Rev. 19:16)
King of the Ages (Rev. 15:3)
Lamb (Rev. 13:8)
Lamb of God (John 1:29)
Lamb Without Blemish (1 Pet. 1:19)
Last Adam (1 Cor. 15:45)
Life (John 14:6; Col. 3:4)
Light of the World (John 8:12)
Lion of the Tribe of Judah (Rev. 5:5)
Living One (Rev. 1:18)
Living Stone (1 Pet. 2:4)
Lord (2 Pet. 2:20)
Lord of All (Acts 10:36)
Lord of Glory (1 Cor. 2:8)
Lord of lords (Rev. 19:16)
Man from Heaven (1 Cor. 15:48)
Master (Lk. 5:5; 8:24; 9:33)
Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15)
Mighty God (Isa. 9:6)
Morning Star (Rev. 22:16)
Offspring of David (Rev. 22:16)
Only Begotten Son of God (John 1:18; 1 John 4:9)
Our Great God and Savior (Titus 2:13)
Our Holiness (1 Cor. 1:30)
Our Husband (2 Cor. 11:2)
Our Protection (2 Thess. 3:3)
Our Redemption (1 Cor. 1:30)
Our Righteousness (1 Cor. 1:30)
Our Sacrificed Passover Lamb (1 Cor. 5:7)
Power of God (1 Cor. 1:24)
Precious Cornerstone (1 Pet. 2:6)
Prophet (Acts 3:22)
Rabbi (Mt. 26:25)
Resurrection and Life (John 11:25)
Righteous Branch (Jer. 23:5)
Righteous One (Acts 7:52; 1 John 2:1)
Rock (1 Cor. 10:4)
Root of David (Rev. 5:5; 22:16)
Ruler of God’s Creation (Rev. 3:14)
Ruler of the Kings of the Earth (Rev. 1:5)
Savior (Eph. 5:23; Titus 1:4; 3:6; 2 Pet. 2:20)
Son of David (Lk. 18:39)
Son of God (John 1:49; Heb. 4:14)
Son of Man (Mt. 8:20)
Son of the Most High God (Lk. 1:32)
Source of Eternal Salvation for all who obey him (Heb. 5:9)
The One Mediator (1 Tim. 2:5)
The Stone the builders rejected (Acts 4:11)
True Bread (John 6:32)
True Light (John 1:9)
True Vine (John 15:1)
Truth (John 1:14; 14:6)
Way (John 14:6)
Wisdom of God (1 Cor. 1:24)
Word (John 1:1)
Word of God (Rev. 19:13)

Your straw man reasoning that it says in the bible that Michael was created and if Michael is Jesus then God created Himself just doesn’t work. Because to the best of my knowledge, it does not say anywhere in the bible that Michael is created. If you can provide such a text as I say I will probably have to change my thinking. Until then as far as I’m concerned Michael is Jesus.

This really was not a ‘straw man’ … in fact, I gave you the three Scriptural referencs you provided and identified that Michael and Jesus are really two different persons

This is a straw man. The scriptures cited in no way show that Michael and Jesus are two different people. In fact they strongly infer just the opposite.

• you have not yet gotten around to responding to that

Actually I did in post #985

Instead of being dismissive, consider that maybe you have not fully read all of these scriptures - as opposed to little snippets from which any fanciful idea sounds reasonable.

Actually I read every word of the scriptures you posted and this wasn’t the first time. It seems that you have not kept up with the progression of this thread. I don’t know how you feel that I am being dismissive, but its apparent that you consider my replies as " fanciful idea". It’s just as well I think we’ve taken this topic as far as we can. We’re starting to talk to ourselves. I think maybe we have been from the beginning. Anyway, it’s pointless to continue. Don’t you think?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

OK. If, as you say, Jesus is a messenger then the Holy Spirit, who is God, also was an angel originally, since he is sent by the Father and the Son.

We all believe that Jesus, as the Son of God, is the word, as John 1:1-3 says that all things were made by Him and without Him nothing was made that was made. Then by your understanding, it was Michael the Archangel, before all eternity, who created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. ( Gen 1 )

But they do apply, and it is ridiculous to assume that Jesus made Himself.

I still ask that how can Michael be Jesus, if Jesus as the Son of God, and God, is begotten of the Father? God has never said to any of His angels “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” ( Ps 2:7; Heb 1:5-7 ), or “Sit here at my right side until I put your enemies as a footstool under your feet” ( Ps 101:1 ; Heb 1:13 ).

The angels were created and not begotten. Since Michael was an angel, he too was created. ( Col 1: 15-19 ). If this is not proof enough, then I do not know what is.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Ok, Javl I think we’ve taken this as far as we need to. Let me just say and I believe scripture supports this, that there are two intertwined definitions for angel. One is a created being and a member of the heavenly host. The other is “messenger” and is merely a designation of function. Christ is an angel only insofar as He is a messenger of the Father, Michael (Jesus) is a angel only insofar as He is a messenger to Satan and his minions that they are no longer welcome in heaven, The Holy Spirit is an angel only insofar as He is a messenger for the Father and the Son to mankind. This is how I see it. If you don’t I can respect that. However I think we’ve taken this topic as far as we can and it’s time to move on.