Seventh Day Adventists

[greggy53]

You and your church misunderstand what John 6:54 is talking about, Jesus Himself explains it in v. 63b the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
This is also brought out in Jn. 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. When we eat the flesh of Jesus we are eating His words. This is also brought out in 1Cor 2:12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

And you folks completely misread what Jeus is saying. I think many do this intentionally because they hate the Church, and this is indeed a hard saying…They become the people Jesus speaks of in verse 65:
"But there are some of you that believe not… "

The following is the proper interpretation of that scripture taken from the Douay-Rheims Bible:

64 “The flesh profiteth nothing”… Dead flesh separated from the spirit, in the gross manner they supposed they were to eat his flesh, would profit nothing. Neither doth man’s flesh, that is to say, man’s natural and carnal apprehension, (which refuses to be subject to the spirit, and words of Christ,) profit any thing. But it would be the height of blasphemy, to say the living flesh of Christ (which we receive in the blessed sacrament, with his spirit, that is, with his soul and divinity) profiteth nothing. For if Christ’s flesh had profited us nothing, he would never have taken flesh for us, nor died in the flesh for us.

64 “Are spirit and life”… By proposing to you a heavenly sacrament, in which you shall receive, in a wonderful manner, spirit, grace, and life, in its very fountain.

Which our Lord instituted at the last Supper, the first Mass showing us how we are to eat his flesh and drink his blood.

Matthew 26, 26 And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body. 27 And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying: Drink ye all of this. 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.

But sadly many of you in your spirit of rebellion refuse to believe our Lord.

 

[phummel]

Paul,

I have no qualms for anyone who wants to live a healthier life. However, it is wrong to teach that Judaic dietary laws are binding on Christians and that not to observe them is a sin. Once again, Adventists are supposed to accept it because Ellen White says she received this from God as divine inspiration, in spite of New Testament evidence to the contrary. How is that freedom? If you want to live a healthier life and even be a vegetarian, you can do that within the Catholic Church. The Church just won’t tell you that you are sinful if you don’t. Who then offers the more freedom on this point? I can go to Mass on Saturdays in the Catholic Church if I wish, but the Catholic Church will not tell me it is sinful if I attend on Sundays, in honor of Christ’s victory over death. Yet breaking the Sabbath with Adventists, is taught as a sin. More freedom I think here in the Catholic faith.

You mention your own theology, feeling in harmony with God, and seeing glimpses of Christ in others in the Adventist Church. Your willingness to share your faith in Christ, your time, your talents and your love are all commendable and important, and you can do all those things within the Catholic Church. That you see glimpses of Christ in others, I do not doubt. I would not say that there are those in the SDA church who do not have a relationship with Christ. I myself, believed in Christ, long before I entered the Catholic Church. On the theology front though, I would wish you to think less of your own rationality and compare your beliefs with the standards of the historic Christian faith. I commend to you the words of the Apostle John, in II John 7 - 11.

Pax Vobix

On the theology front though, I would wish you to think less of your own rationality
Haha, or irrationality…

Thank you for sharing John’s 2nd Epistle.
Sometimes I think we are talking about 2 different churches.
I certainly don’t think it is a sin not to follow the dietary laws from Leviticus. Rather, I just see the good sense of it. I was a vegetarian in my twenties and then stopped. I have sort of a healing/physician view of God. You can’t be healed if you don’t listen to your doctor. It’s not a requirement, but perhaps foolish not to follow His instructions.
We are all in different place in our walk with Him. So, while health+fitness calls to me, I clearly have short comings in other areas. Isn’t a church just a spiritual hospital. You’re going to have people at all levels. So in testing the fruits, I should see people getting spirtitually healthy at my hospital - I do.

blessings,
paul

 

[Holly3278]

Hello Holly:

I don’t know if anyone has addressed this. A quick glance at the thread and I don’t see anything.

The Church didn’t change Sabbath. The Sabbath is Saturday and will always be Saturday. Just a little technical glitch in your post.

Oh I’m sorry. I thought we were supposed to worship on the Sabbath though?

 

[phummel]

Paul,

How is it that you have to ask Marsha or anyone else on how to reconciling judgment and grace, and what the Catholic perspective on these things are? Don’t you think it is prudent to be sure of the beliefs you are converting from, before you convert to another faith? I wonder if you have ever totally understood the fullness of the Catholic faith.

Catholic belief is simply that Christ’s salvation is totally an act of His grace, which is of itself a gift of God, that we activate by faith. He pardons our sins according to the merits of Christ’s atonement on the cross, and our faith grows and manifests itself in good works.

As far as judgment goes, the book of Romans teaches us that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ and called, according to His mercy. While we suffer the ramifications of our own failures, here on earth, if we keep the faith, we Christ’s salvation as a free gift.

Peace to you,

Hi Allen,

I think your comment is fair. On being Catholic - I never bought into the literal body and blood of Christ during the Last Supper. A bit of a show stopper there…
I hadn’t been in a church for twenty years. I came back to a Baptist church for about a month - didn’t fill me up. At suggestion of a coworker, I tried the SDA church - never planned to stay. It just happened that way…

The SDA church gives me a broad range of freedom to explore the Bible and reach my own conclusions. Even if they are wrong, I truly believe God rules His universe with freedom. This has always been the basis of my brand of Protestantism. Perhaps I could stumbled into a Methodist or Presbyterian church and found the same happiness - who knows…

God bless you,
paul

 

[phummel]

Yes, but not as important as being with Jesus. If community, or congregational warmth is more important, to make you feel welcome,then I guess Jesus willl just have to take a back seat. After all, isn’t the purpose of going to church is to be with Jesus and worship Him?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Marsha, Allen, Len -

Really, there is a lot of truth that applies to me in this debate. I never connected in the RC church. My mom was also RC and converted to being Methodist - her experience was ugly. She was in the RC church in the 1950s. She had some personal badness inflicted on her by some nuns. You can’t hold a church accountable for the actions of a few bad apples, but these things happen and sheep are lost.

Len, you are correct it should be Jesus first. Then beliefs and doctrines. Finally, you should be able to test the fruits. Back to my spiritual hospital analogy, if you don’t see people getting better and you’re not getting better, maybe this hospital isn’t the best place to heal.

I have no rose colored glasses about the history of the SDA church. I’ve also met people my age who were crushed by the SDA church when they grew-up. I pray that the Holy Spirit helps me keep the young people in my church family safe in Him. Even if that means not being SDA. If they leave, it should be knowing Jesus loves them. If they stay, it should be with the highest sense of freedom.

blessings,
paul

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Richard Kastner,

Somehow I must have missed the connection you are trying to establish between Sola Fidie (Faith Alone) and the Seventh Day Adventists. Really there are an abundance of Protestant attempts to justify the error of “Faith Alone” on other CAF threads - maybe you would like to go to one of these, rather then derail the SDA thread?

We receive grace through faith, not through the receiving of any sacrament.
Romans 5:2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 5:12For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
If the amount of grace that is dispensed was in proportion to the amount of times you went to communion, that would be salvation by works and those who don’t go to the Catholic communion would be lost. The bible certainly does not teach this.
Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

One of the biggest stumbling blocks to getting a better understanding of John 6 - it cutting it up onto one-liners that are intended to win an argumet. In rality, the other person comes back with one-liners of their won! What I would sincerely do - is that I have done this evening - read all of John 6. I think if you actally see how the story flows from the multipicatio of the loaves and fishes, to Peter going to meet Christ on the waves and then to the Eucharist discourse - you will see ow John intended fo this to fit in to the NT.

The words from Christ are clearly stated - unless you eat My Flesh and drink My Blood you have no life in you. The only clearer explanation you will receive of this statement will happen before the White Throne. To say that “you and your church have misunderstood” when not only were these words given directly to the Apostles - the Apostles passed them on to their successors and the Early Church Fathers. So, we take Christ’s words spoken in 33AD, His promise that the Holy Spirit would protect the Church from error (and that would be the Catholic Church) and we see the history develop before our eyes on how these early believers did believe thtat the Consecrated Bread and Wine was the Body, Blood, Human Soul and Diviintiy of Jesus Christ. This went on for another (1520 - 33 =1487) 1,487 years until Luther and Co. decided to abandon the Church founded by Christ on Peter. That is really a lot of time to trash in order to come up with another interpretation.

Check out all of John 6 - and see for yourself that these little snippets you have come up with are more distortion rather then explanation.

God bless

 

[Javl]

Phummel:
Len, you are correct it should be Jesus first. Then beliefs and doctrines. Finally, you should be able to test the fruits. Back to my spiritual hospital analogy, if you don’t see people getting better and you’re not getting better, maybe this hospital isn’t the best place to heal.

Paul:

Your hospital analogy is great. But why should you stay and try to get better or be healed in a clinic ( there are over 30,000 of them, yours included ) when a real hospital
( the Catholic Church ) is best for healing? I pray for you. God Bless.

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[apruett]

Hi Allen,

I think your comment is fair. On being Catholic - I never bought into the literal body and blood of Christ during the Last Supper. A bit of a show stopper there…
I hadn’t been in a church for twenty years. I came back to a Baptist church for about a month - didn’t fill me up. At suggestion of a coworker, I tried the SDA church - never planned to stay. It just happened that way…

The SDA church gives me a broad range of freedom to explore the Bible and reach my own conclusions. Even if they are wrong, I truly believe God rules His universe with freedom. This has always been the basis of my brand of Protestantism. Perhaps I could stumbled into a Methodist or Presbyterian church and found the same happiness - who knows…

God bless you,
paul

Hi Paul,

Just as they say “all politics are local”, it can also be true that your experience within a given denomination is local too. I did not have any kind of bad experience in the Adventist
Church with anyone. For me, it is more that I realized they were in error, and a lot of the things I had been taught were not true. Plus, the suppression of parts of Ellen White’s writings, I found to be very dishonest. In my opinion freedom to explore the Bible and reach your own conclusions can be done in the quiet of your own home, if coming to your own conclusions is the goal. However, if you want to learn the Christian faith, as was founded by Christ and His Apostles, that is better done in the Church that He founded. I am sorry for your mother’s bad experience, whatever it was. Since you have said you never have really connected with the Catholic Church, I would invite you to do so, and give their teachings a fair hearing as well. Isn’t part of coming to the best conclusion, making sure you have considered all the information available?

Peace to You,

 

[phummel]

Alan,

apologies - I just noticed I have been misspelling your name.
-paul

 

[apruett]

Alan,

apologies - I just noticed I have been misspelling your name.
-paul

No problem…I don’t offend very easily.

Pax Vobis

 

[phummel]

Hi Paul,

Just as they say “all politics are local”, it can also be true that your experience within a given denomination is local too. I did not have any kind of bad experience in the Adventist
Church with anyone. For me, it is more that I realized they were in error, and a lot of the things I had been taught were not true. Plus, the suppression of parts of Ellen White’s writings, I found to be very dishonest. In my opinion freedom to explore the Bible and reach your own conclusions can be done in the quiet of your own home, if coming to your own conclusions is the goal. However, if you want to learn the Christian faith, as was founded by Christ and His Apostles, that is better done in the Church that He founded. I am sorry for your mother’s bad experience, whatever it was. Since you have said you never have really connected with the Catholic Church, I would invite you to do so, and give their teachings a fair hearing as well. Isn’t part of coming to the best conclusion, making sure you have considered all the information available?

Peace to You,

Alan/Tom/Len/HC,

Thanks all for your comments and considerate responses. The RC church is lucky to have you as members - I pray that you will win many souls.
For me, you’ve planted a seed - not bad, eh. I won’t be deviating from my current course but should I become disaffected as an SDA, I will give the RC church a hard look - I would have never said that a year ago.

blessings,
paul

 

[walker_p]

Hello Tom,
Trying to catch-up…

I love the McDonalds analogy. Much heretical humor runs through my head. What SDAs all have in common is the McBible. KJV seems to be preferred.

As far as not sticking to doctrine, most people, especially in the church, overlook our preamble. The preamble to the church’s statement of fundamental beliefs underscores its commitment to intellectual honesty, Biblical faithfulness, and the spirit of inquiry. As far as I am concerned, if there is doctrine that doesn’t lead us to the Bible and Christ, it needs to be carefully scrutinized and perhaps discarded.

Also, we don’t want to divide and standup new doctrines. Rather we want to see faulty doctrines and beliefs removed. In 1957 our church published the Questions on Doctrine - this was tetonic shift and many got left behind. It’s caused a lot of pain and left some people stranded. IMO, it was the right thing to do and I would like to see one more shift like that. I think the GC is taking a more evolutionary approach to change now. Probably wise, but it takes time to change hearts and minds.

Here is an example from our Sabbath School on these subtle shifts. I think the quarterly lesson was on the Gift of Prophecy. This particular lesson had an example of 3 prophets -

1. The lying prophet - 1 Kings 13
2. Prophet who wanted to do wrong but was stopped by God - Numbers 22
3. Prophet who was mistaken but God corrected - 1 Chronicles 17
   What’s the point? That prophets aren’t infalliable and they are not on the clock 24x7. You can see this leading up to EGW’s role. We even talked about Ex Cathedra. I.e., the pope is not infalliable 24x7…

Marsha,
I think you have a fair assessment. Have you ever heard of cafeteria Catholics? You know pick and choose the dishes you want. You are right in saying SDA has the same thing.

blessings,
paul

Typical. Here we have another Seventh Day Adventist trying to throw mud at true Biblical prophets in order to make Ellen G. White look good in comparison. Instead of trying to drag true Biblical prophets down to the level of Ellen White, how about facing the truth: Ellen White is a liar, a plagiarist, and a false prophet. Let her go. You cannot salvage Ellen White. She is a lost cause. Let her go. If the Seventh Day Adventist church were to let go of all their false doctrines, nothing would be left. Remember, Scripture (given to you by the Catholic Church) says even one false prophecy means a prophet is not from God. Ellen White made many false prophecies. Leave the whore of Babylon - also known as the Seventh Day Adventist church. I have heard of “cafeteria Catholics.” They are also known as “people who are going to hell.”

 

[walker_p]

You and your church misunderstand what John 6:54 is talking about, Jesus Himself explains it in v. 63b the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
This is also brought out in Jn. 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. When we eat the flesh of Jesus we are eating His words. This is also brought out in 1Cor 2:12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Absolutely wrong. I notice you left out half of verse 63. In its entirety then: “It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.” Jesus is here addressing the crowd’s unbelief in what he has just said over and over and over and over again: that they must literally eat his flesh and blood. Jesus is saying that you cannot just look at it from a human, carnal, earthly perspective or you will miss the significance of it. This is spiritual truth and you have to accept it in that manner. The context show us Jesus was speaking literally. When we eat the flesh of Jesus, we eat his flesh. The proof texts you list have nothing to do with Jesus discourse on the Eucharist. Listing unrelated texts proves nothing. Here is a text that is related: 1 Corinthians 11:27 “Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.” You can’t be guilty of his body and blood if they are not present. You also have to account for the fact that this is the first time Judas begins to doubt Jesus. And the church Fathers all agree on the Eucharist being Jesus’ actual body and blood.

 

[apruett]

Alan/Tom/Len/HC,

Thanks all for your comments and considerate responses. The RC church is lucky to have you as members - I pray that you will win many souls.
For me, you’ve planted a seed - not bad, eh. I won’t be deviating from my current course but should I become disaffected as an SDA, I will give the RC church a hard look - I would have never said that a year ago.

blessings,
paul

Hi Paul,

Thank you for your kind comments. Have you ever ready any of the Apostolic Fathers? Do you know who Ignatius of Antioch is? He was a 1st Century Bishop in the Church at Antioch, who was a Disciple of the Apostle John and appointed Bishop by Peter. When you have the time I suggest that you look at St. Ignatius Letter to the Magnesians. This is from a first century witness to the Christian faith who was martyred. Here is a link for it:

www.jhu.edu/gcf/lessons/IgnatiusMagnesians.pdf

Pax Vobis

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Absolutely wrong. I notice you left out half of verse 63. In its entirety then: “It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.”

I left out the first part of the v. because I wanted to key on what Jesus was saying specifically about His words.

Jesus is here addressing the crowd’s unbelief in what he has just said over and over and over and over again: that they must literally eat his flesh and blood.

Jesus is here telling the crowd exactly what He meant by eating His flesh and that is to eat (understand) His words Jn. 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, This is confirmed by Peter in v. 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Jesus is saying that you cannot just look at it from a human, carnal, earthly perspective or you will miss the significance of it. This is spiritual truth and you have to accept it in that manner.

He is saying sin (works of the flesh) prophets nothing. Gal. 5:18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
But the fruits of the Spirit are manifest in His WORDS.

The context show us Jesus was speaking literally. When we eat the flesh of Jesus, we eat his flesh.

Sure He is. He is saying when you eat of the WORD, the bread of life You have life in you. Psalm 119:11Thy **word **have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Romans 623 says “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” We die through sin but are made alive through the **WORD **made flesh.

The proof texts you list have nothing to do with Jesus discourse on the Eucharist.

First of all Jesus is not talking about some blasphemous Catholic rite called the eucharist.

Listing unrelated texts proves nothing.

Well, let me spell it out for you. Here is 1Cor 2:12-14 again
1Cor 2:12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Paul says that we (meaning brothers and sisters in Christ), have received not the Spirit of the world see Gal. 5 18-22 above, but the Spirit which is of God. Jn. 6:63b **The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. **And we recieve this not through the wisdom of man but through the Holy Spirit.
Jn14:26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. John also teaches this in his first epistle

1Jn.2:27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. This is also brought out in Jeramiah 31:33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. This is actually the definition of the new covenant. That no more are we to be taught of men, but by the Words of Jesus through the power of the Spirit.

Are you a natural man? That you cannot perceive the things of the Spirit of God? Are they folishness to you? Because you indicate that these vs. have nothing to do with Jn. 6 when clearly they elaborate on what Jesus is saying when He says "The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life."

Here is a text that is related: 1 Corinthians 11:27 “Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.” You can’t be guilty of his body and blood if they are not present.

Just out of curiosity what do you think the word “unworthily” means in this v.

You also have to account for the fact that this is the first time Judas begins to doubt Jesus.

Why?

And the church Fathers all agree on the Eucharist being Jesus’ actual body and blood.

I don’t care what the church fathers say.

 

[Javl]

I left out the first part of the v. because I wanted to key on what Jesus was saying specifically about His words.

Jesus is here telling the crowd exactly what He meant by eating His flesh and that is to eat (understand) His words Jn. 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, This is confirmed by Peter in v. 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

He is saying sin (works of the flesh) prophets nothing. Gal. 5:18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
But the fruits of the Spirit are manifest in His WORDS.

Sure He is. He is saying when you eat of the WORD, the bread of life You have life in you. Psalm 119:11Thy **word **have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Romans 623 says “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” We die through sin but are made alive through the **WORD **made flesh.

First of all Jesus is not talking about some blasphemous Catholic rite called the eucharist.

Well, let me spell it out for you. Here is 1Cor 2:12-14 again
1Cor 2:12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Paul says that we (meaning brothers and sisters in Christ), have received not the Spirit of the world see Gal. 5 18-22 above, but the Spirit which is of God. Jn. 6:63b **The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. **And we recieve this not through the wisdom of man but through the Holy Spirit.
Jn14:26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. John also teaches this in his first epistle

1Jn.2:27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. This is also brought out in Jeramiah 31:33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. This is actually the definition of the new covenant. That no more are we to be taught of men, but by the Words of Jesus through the power of the Spirit.

Are you a natural man? That you cannot perceive the things of the Spirit of God? Are they folishness to you? Because you indicate that these vs. have nothing to do with Jn. 6 when clearly they elaborate on what Jesus is saying when He says "The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life."

Just out of curiosity what do you think the word “unworthily” means in this v.

Why?

I don’t care what the church fathers say.

My dear friend: like all who believe in Sola Scriptura and private interpretation, you refuse to accept and believe the obvious. You fall into serious error by refusing to accept Jesus’ words as they are. You are actually rejecting what He is saying by putting your own personal spin on them. walker p has shown you the truth, but you refuse to accept it. I pray the Holy Spirit will open your eyes and give you the wisdom and knowledge to
truly understand what Jesus has said.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[tqualey]

Hi Richard,

I have to hand it to you - you ending actually captured not on the content but the flavor of your post: I don’t care what the church fathers say

You were given excellent responses - but, insult all on this list with your flippant:
First of all Jesus is not talking about some blasphemous Catholic rite called the eucharist.

What makes your post so tragic is that you must be running around with the illusion that enlightenment only happend around 1520 - and everything that preceeded Luther & Co was just of no consequence. The Apostles passed the torch, as it were to what we call the Early Church Fathers. Now, you can close your eyes and deny the relevance of those who carried on Apostolic Tradition - but, just what do you think happened?

Rave on, with your insults of blasphmy. But, I tell you what. The next time you open your Bible that was given to you courtesy of the Catholic Church, please pray for enlightenment from the Holy Spirit to really understand the plain words that are right in front of your eyes. Please note, Christ compares Himself to the mana God gave to the Hebrews in the desert that they ate every day - not to a scroll that they would have read and not ate! Who eats paper on a regular basis? Where else do you find in the Bible (OT or NT) where “eat” is to be understood for “understand” ? If your argument is believeable - then back up your statement from Scripture with the chapter and verse.

The real proof is that no one ever - ever - walked away from Christ becaue he used an analogy or a metaphor. None. Do you really think it is “…a hard saying…” to eat paper, or parchment, of even auditory words? Nope! Never happened - or, accept the challenge and give me chapter and verse of where else this happened. You’re on.

So, you tell me, why do you think these Jews insulted Christ and then walked away as a group? Here is the section you decided to evade, in context - please note the plain words of Christ in John 6:51-68

**51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."
52
The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”
53
Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57
Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
58
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”
59
These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
60
20 Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”
61
Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you?
62
What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
63
It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
64
But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.
65
And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”
66
As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.
67
Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”
68
Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. **

I left out the first part of the v. because I wanted to key on what Jesus was saying specifically about His words.
Jesus is here telling the crowd exactly what He meant by eating His flesh and that is to eat (understand) His words Jn. 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, This is confirmed by Peter in v. 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

This portion of your post is just weak in both content and context (the section you had difficulty with is quoted above for your convenience).

I sincerely pray, don’t spurn the very words of Christ.

God bless

 

[Javl]

A excellent response, tqualey. I think that he is bordering on cultism, such as
the WatchTower Bible and Tract Society ( Jehovahs Witnesses ) who reject the plain words of Jesus and twist them to their own destruction. The truth will prevail. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Javl,

I’ll be honest with you - I had not thought of that (him being with the JW)… but, the obvious idea of people (any people) actually thinking they were being told that for their eternal salvation they will need to be eating paper or parchment … is just incredible!!

A excellent response, tqualey. I think that he is bordering on cultism, such as
the WatchTower Bible and Tract Society ( Jehovahs Witnesses ) who reject the plain words of Jesus and twist them to their own destruction. The truth will prevail. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

The very idea of claiming to follow Christ by disbelieving what He said is truly incredible. Of course, to do as Christ instructed ultimately means one must remain withing the sheepfold - and, that would be the Catholic Church - the Church founded by Christ… not some discredited group indicted and convicted by the federal government.

All it takes is Faith that Christ is the Son of God and He can do whatever He says He is going to do.

God bless.

 

[ern42]

After reading all the messages, all the back and forth fluff. A thousand words that don’t say NOTHING! A bunch of excuses, jokes, and worthless comments about the SDA church, it’s doctrines and about people in general that just want to do God’s will; whether in the church (SDA) or not. I’ve come to the conclusion that if you won’t allow the Holy Spirit into your heart and mind, you will NEVER understand the times we are living in. You will make fun of God’s Holy Word, and call it the “mcbible”. Get your laughs in today, make fun of God’s Word!!! Make fun of people that want to follow God’s Word to the letter because they LOVE HIM! Call it legalism, call it what ever you want. Keep choosing man over God. Keep keeping Sunday as your “Holy” day of worship, because man told you to do it thousands of years ago. Keep doing what ever YOUR MIND, and YOUR HEART tell you to do!
Do your will not God’s!
All I can tell you is that time is running out on this world. Today you laugh, tommorrow many will cry! You think it’s all a big funny joke? Divine doctrine is anything but a funny joke! To be a member of the SDA church DOESN"T guarantee salvation, to be a member of any church, doesn’t guarantee salvation. If fact the only thing that guarantees our salvation is LOVING JESUS CHRIST with ALL OUR HEARTS, but it doesn’t stop there, because when you LOVE GOD, you obey his commandments, and you do HIS will, not because you have to, because your heart tells it’s the right thing to do.
So go ahead take these words and twist them around, make fun of the bible, call it the mcbible again,keep sending me worthless qoutes and ideas and personal philosophy about Sunday and legalism and tradition, and attacking Doug Bachelor, ect, ect… I welcome it, because each mockery tells a story of ignorance, and shows who you really worship. Jesus NEVER mocked, or made fun off anyone! So, who’s example are you following, is it Jesus?

PS> I’ve read thousands of words, many, many sentences, tons of STUFF, but I’m still waiting for the Bible text, in which God tells me to Worship him on SUNDAY. Please something SO SO IMPORTANT MUST HAVE A TEXT FROM THE BIBLE< WHICH CLEARLY PROVES IT TO BE TRUE! I will continue to wait patiently.

with LOVE, Ern!