Seventh Day Adventists

[Javl]

Have you done verse 48 yet?

Yes, have you? The universal Church ( Catholic ) was founded by Jesus Christ. He gave it
full authority to act in His name. He also said that “…the gates of hell shall not prevail
against it…” and also “I will be with you always”. It alone is the only deposit of the full truth as given it through the Apostles and has remained unchanged for aproximately
2000 years. If it doesn’t teach the same, then Jesus did not mean what He said and can be considered a liar.

The Church has been accused of following the traditions of men. Yes we do. We follow only the traditions given it by Jesus and the Apostles. Yet those who accuse the Church
themselves follow the traditions of men.

The Church does change its improvement of understanding of the revealed truths, but does
NOT change any of those truths or add to them.

Yes, the Church has had black periods in its history, all because of mans greed and lust for power.All that has been political and not religious or spiritual. Many have tried to prove otherwise and all have failed utterly. Many vehemently anti-Catholics, when they have
studied and learned about the Church had realized their errors and converted. I wish that
all non-Catholics would really set down and learn about the Catholic Church and then see for themselves the real truths and beauty of belonging to the One True Church.

God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[greggy53]

greggy; it is your own hatred of non-Catholic Christians that leads you to talk like this. What you call “filth” is simply truth which you wish to ignore; you can’t do very well at refuting it; so you are choosing to call it “hatred.” Calling it such things; and actually proving such charges are two very different things.
For a while; I was tempted to believe people like you who make such baseless charges, but as I studied into the matter with an open mind; I could easily see how Ellen White or any other Adventists writings did also take special care to always level the same kinds of charges against Adventists who would not accept and follow Bible truths. Catholics have never been especially singled out as targets of “hatred,” any more than Adventists when it comes to naming sin.
Doctrines that don’t come from Jesus can only come from one other source, and it is nowhere close to “hatred” when one church tries to correct what they see as falsehoods being taught by another Church. You’ll have to do a lot better than some of your snide little comments here to convince me of anything.

I have many faults but hatred is not among them. The word “filth” that I used to describe the contents of SDA accusations against the Catholic Church was not the best choice of words. I think “trash” would be a more apt description of the lies the SDA teach as truth about God’s Church.
Concerning baseless charges lets take a look at one small excerpt from an article currently posted on an official SDA website. This article specifically charges the Catholic Church of worshiping pagan Gods, and offers no references, no evidence whatsoever to support that claim.

This characteristic itself was typical of all the pagan nations, which by conquest perpetually added to their list of deities. Says Durant in The Story of Civilization: "There were gods who presided over every moment of a man’s life, gods of the house and garden, of food and drink, of health and sickness.” The Roman Church gathered these gods into her bosom and gave them saints’ names….

Note how they try to legitimize the accusation by attaching it to a quote from a legitimate history of civilization. The accusation of Catholic pagan worship is not part of the actual history, but they want you to think it is. It is very clever editing. They use quote marks to protect themselves legally but to the unwary the inference is very real.
Now, if I am reading that last sentence correctly the SDA teach that the Catholic saints never existed, that the Church invented them, and named them after pagan gods. Am I reading that right? If not please let me know. If I am gleaning the correct meaning then you need to provide some evidence, some references for that claim. If there are none then am I not just in calling it lies, and trash?

 

[Protestant101]

I have many faults but hatred is not among them. The word “filth” that I used to describe the contents of SDA accusations against the Catholic Church was not the best choice of words. I think “trash” would be a more apt description of the lies the SDA teach as truth about God’s Church.
Concerning baseless charges lets take a look at one small excerpt from an article currently posted on an official SDA website. This article specifically charges the Catholic Church of worshiping pagan Gods, and offers no references, no evidence whatsoever to support that claim.

This characteristic itself was typical of all the pagan nations, which by conquest perpetually added to their list of deities. Says Durant in The Story of Civilization: "There were gods who presided over every moment of a man’s life, gods of the house and garden, of food and drink, of health and sickness.” The Roman Church gathered these gods into her bosom and gave them saints’ names….

Note how they try to legitimize the accusation by attaching it to a quote from a legitimate history of civilization. The accusation of Catholic pagan worship is not part of the actual history, but they want you to think it is. It is very clever editing. They use quote marks to protect themselves legally but to the unwary the inference is very real.
Now, if I am reading that last sentence correctly the SDA teach that the Catholic saints never existed, that the Church invented them, and named them after pagan gods. Am I reading that right? If not please let me know. If I am gleaning the correct meaning then you need to provide some evidence, some references for that claim. If there are none then am I not just in calling it lies, and trash?

Well; you could provide a specific reference as to where you got the quote in question from. That might be a good start. But, the major point here is that it is not “filth” “trash” or “hatred” or any other such thing when people honestly believe something and try to refute beliefs which go against their understanding. If you want to get rid of hatred, you have to stop inciting it and using it yourself. Sharp differences between doctrinal ideas just don’t cut the definitions herein, no matter what way you slice it.

 

[greggy53]

Well; you could provide a specific reference as to where you got the quote in question from. That might be a good start. But, the major point here is that it is not “filth” “trash” or “hatred” or any other such thing when people honestly believe something and try to refute beliefs which go against their understanding. If you want to get rid of hatred, you have to stop inciting it and using it yourself. Sharp differences between doctrinal ideas just don’t cut the definitions herein, no matter what way you slice it.

If you scroll back thru this thread you will find an exact link to the SDA source I quoted. I have no problem with anyone who honestly “believes something”, but I do take serious issue with those who intentionally publish untruths about their fellow Christians in order to promote thier own agenda. The SDA at their offical website publishes numerours articles and videos portraying the Catholic Church as a pagan worshiping cult without ever offering any historical or written evidence whatsoever to back their claims. All I have gotten from you so far is a rant about how bad I am for asking you why you believe what you believe. Evidence please.

 

[Protestant101]

If you scroll back thru this thread you will find an exact link to the SDA source I quoted. I have no problem with anyone who honestly “believes something”, but I do take serious issue with those who intentionally publish untruths about their fellow Christians in order to promote thier own agenda. The SDA at their offical website publishes numerours articles and videos portraying the Catholic Church as a pagan worshiping cult without ever offering any historical or written evidence whatsoever to back their claims. All I have gotten from you so far is a rant about how bad I am for asking you why you believe what you believe. Evidence please.

Now you are going to give us the “poor me” victim complex. is there no end to your “apologetics?”

You are making it obvious that you don’t like Adventists or what they believe; yet when questioned for exact references, you don’t even know them; makes me wonder how far I need to scroll back to see another reply that is not an answer, only an excuse. You promote your own agenda too; and you should, this is a Catholic forum, but if you are going to invite Protestants here, or talk about them here; they are going to reply. No one said you were “bad” just mixed up.

Many Catholic practices can indeed be found in pagan roots. I don’t have a problem with anyone saying that - and it isn’t just Adventists.

As far as your big accusation about Adventists; you dote on one short quote, and call it “evidence” of some kind, but I have no idea what, yet.

 

[Javl]

Now you are going to give us the “poor me” victim complex. is there no end to your “apologetics?”

You are making it obvious that you don’t like Adventists or what they believe; yet when questioned for exact references, you don’t even know them; makes me wonder how far I need to scroll back to see another reply that is not an answer, only an excuse. You promote your own agenda too; and you should, this is a Catholic forum, but if you are going to invite Protestants here, or talk about them here; they are going to reply. No one said you were “bad” just mixed up.

We can say the same about Adventists too. With the exception of phummel on
this thread, I have found that the SDAs all exhibit a “holier than thou” attitude. When trying to dialogue with any of them ( and you too ), all seem to look down their noses.
And all make some off world statement about Catholicism. When asked for the source, or reference for such statements, they are usually ignored or some reason given (such as
yours ) for not giving it. We try to act in charity but are rebuffed.

Many Catholic practices can indeed be found in pagan roots. I don’t have a problem with anyone saying that - and it isn’t just Adventists.

Can you please tell me what practices?. All Catholic prayers, Liturgy, etc. is based on scripture and Jewish prayer.

As far as your big accusation about Adventists; you dote on one short quote, and call it “evidence” of some kind, but I have no idea what, yet.

You do make statements that we do not know about. When we ask from where you get it, or what is you reference for such, you either ignore it or as you say you “have no idea
what”. Yes at times our patience and charity in talking to SDAs does wear thin, and I
and I’m sure the others apologize. We all ask in true charity to answer our questions truthfully as we try to do yours. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[greggy53]

Now you are going to give us the “poor me” victim complex. is there no end to your “apologetics?”

I’m someone who is asking legitimate questions to those who are telling me that the history of Christianity is not what I and millions of others believe it was, and all I want is to see some evidence for those claims. The website lists no bibliography, or any kind of references for this article. I just want evidence that what the SDA is telling me is the truth. If they can’t provide any evidence why should I believe them? Why shouldn’t I think they are lying? And if they are lying about the history of Christianity what else are they lying about? Aren’t you curious about where they get their “historical “ information from?

You are making it obvious that you don’t like Adventists or what they believe; yet when questioned for exact references, you don’t even know them; makes me wonder how far I need to scroll back to see another reply that is not an answer, only an excuse. You promote your own agenda too; and you should, this is a Catholic forum, but if you are going to invite Protestants here, or talk about them here; they are going to reply. No one said you were “bad” just mixed up.

I have an acquaintance that is SDA, and I like him very much. He educated, well spoken, diligent in his work, and sincere in his religious beliefs. I have no doubt there are many like him in the SDA. Here is the web site: amazingfacts.org The article I quoted was from the free on-line library it’s called “Baptized Paganism” it’s at the top of the list. I am not afraid to give any references for anything I have claimed about the SDA or anything else. I’m not the smartest man in the world by any means, but I’m not mixed up either, not about this.

Many Catholic practices can indeed be found in pagan roots. I don’t have a problem with anyone saying that - and it isn’t just Adventists.

Yes indeed many of our secular holidays are rooted in ancient pagan beliefs. Equinox , winter solstice etc. I was taught all of this in Catholic school. If you tell me you believe we are worshipping the Easter bunny at Easter that is fine with me, but the articles take it much further when they claim that the Catholic Church made up the saints, and gave them the names of pagan gods….That is an attempt to re-write history, and you can’t expect us to believe it without physical evidence that it ever occurred.

As far as your big accusation about Adventists; you dote on one short quote, and call it “evidence” of some kind, but I have no idea what, yet.

It’s an accusation that so far stands un refuted. Evidence please.

 

[Protestant101]

I’m someone who is asking legitimate questions to those who are telling me that the history of Christianity is not what I and millions of others believe it was, and all I want is to see some evidence for those claims. The website lists no bibliography, or any kind of references for this article. I just want evidence that what the SDA is telling me is the truth. If they can’t provide any evidence why should I believe them? Why shouldn’t I think they are lying? And if they are lying about the history of Christianity what else are they lying about? Aren’t you curious about where they get their “historical “ information from?

I have an acquaintance that is SDA, and I like him very much. He educated, well spoken, diligent in his work, and sincere in his religious beliefs. I have no doubt there are many like him in the SDA. Here is the web site: amazingfacts.org The article I quoted was from the free on-line library it’s called “Baptized Paganism” it’s at the top of the list. I am not afraid to give any references for anything I have claimed about the SDA or anything else. I’m not the smartest man in the world by any means, but I’m not mixed up either, not about this.

Yes indeed many of our secular holidays are rooted in ancient pagan beliefs. Equinox , winter solstice etc. I was taught all of this in Catholic school. If you tell me you believe we are worshipping the Easter bunny at Easter that is fine with me, but the articles take it much further when they claim that the Catholic Church made up the saints, and gave them the names of pagan gods….That is an attempt to re-write history, and you can’t expect us to believe it without physical evidence that it ever occurred.

It’s an accusation that so far stands un refuted. Evidence please.

OK, I have a copy of that booklet, so I will look it over. I highly doubt that much will result here; but I will give it a go, and get back to you.

 

[Protestant101]

We can say the same about Adventists too. With the exception of phummel on
this thread, I have found that the SDAs all exhibit a “holier than thou” attitude. When trying to dialogue with any of them ( and you too ), all seem to look down their noses.
And all make some off world statement about Catholicism. When asked for the source, or reference for such statements, they are usually ignored or some reason given (such as
yours ) for not giving it. We try to act in charity but are rebuffed.

LOL, these kinds of characterizations are so common…and yet if anyone ever tries to defend themselves against them, or if they 'refuse to answer" such things, they are deemed as having a “holier than thou” attitude? Hmmm I’ll have to think about that one. But I will say, I do appreciate very much the charity directed at myself on this forum. it does not go un-noticed, and I will always have something good to say about Catholics because of it. I sincerely hope and pray that you receive a special blessing at your Church today, may the peace of Christ attend your Mass, and may His presence go with you in the rest of the week. We all need His love, and His charity with one another. LOL, and if it’s not Sunday in your part of the world as I post this, just apply these closing comments to your next Sunday!

 

[greggy53]

OK, I have a copy of that booklet, so I will look it over. I highly doubt that much will result here; but I will give it a go, and get back to you.

I await your reply

 

[Protestant101]

It’s an accusation that so far stands un refuted. Evidence please.

The accusation is not clear; and it needs more evidence too. You might want to move beyond one paragraph, and see what is actually being talked about first. it is hard to answer any accusation that has little or no evidence to accompany it.

 

[greggy53]

The accusation is not clear; and it needs more evidence too. You might want to move beyond one paragraph, and see what is actually being talked about first. it is hard to answer any accusation that has little or no evidence to accompany it.

I read the entire article and the charges it makes against the Catholic Church are very clear. If you are trying to say that the quote I gave from the piece was taken out of context then you need to demonstrate how. The whole article IS the evidence for my accusation and you have not answered it at all. You need to speak with your leaders and ask what their defense is for the statements they make against the Catholic Church. If they can’t give you any besides the double talk that I have heard from you then you should have serious doubts about their integrity.

 

[Javl]

LOL, these kinds of characterizations are so common…and yet if anyone ever tries to defend themselves against them, or if they 'refuse to answer" such things, they are deemed as having a “holier than thou” attitude? Hmmm I’ll have to think about that one. But I will say, I do appreciate very much the charity directed at myself on this forum. it does not go un-noticed, and I will always have something good to say about Catholics because of it. I sincerely hope and pray that you receive a special blessing at your Church today, may the peace of Christ attend your Mass, and may His presence go with you in the rest of the week. We all need His love, and His charity with one another. LOL, and if it’s not Sunday in your part of the world as I post this, just apply these closing comments to your next Sunday!

I thank you for your consideration and blessing. I pray that the Lord bless and keep you.
I look forward to a genuine and peaceful dialog with you so that we can clear up the misconceptions and myths and fabrications that are made made concerning each other’s Church. I apologize and regret any statements that I have made in a negative manner concerning the SDA.

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Protestant101]

I thank you for your consideration and blessing. I pray that the Lord bless and keep you.
I look forward to a genuine and peaceful dialog with you so that we can clear up the misconceptions and myths and fabrications that are made made concerning each other’s Church. I apologize and regret any statements that I have made in a negative manner concerning the SDA.

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Thankyou; I appreciate it. it’s one thing to dissect and criticize doctrines and ideas; and I don’t mind you doing that with Adventists at all. That’s how we learn and grow in Christ. (2 Pet 3:18). But it’s quite another thing to make the criticism personal. For eg. the booklet in question above; I don’t see it as a personal issue, or a hateful thing in any way. It is criticizing and dissecting ideas and doctrines, some of which, I feel, and which the booklet explains did not come from the Bible. Obviously, said ideas and doctrines are held and cherished by people, and so there are bound to be hurt feelings and offenses from time to time. It’s how we handle these feelings that God is most interested in.

 

[Protestant101]

I await your reply

LOL, don’t hold your breath - promise??? Because I will not be in a hurry! But I will come back to that point here asap.

 

[Javl]

Thankyou; I appreciate it. it’s one thing to dissect and criticize doctrines and ideas; and I don’t mind you doing that with Adventists at all. That’s how we learn and grow in Christ. (2 Pet 3:18). But it’s quite another thing to make the criticism personal. For eg. the booklet in question above; I don’t see it as a personal issue, or a hateful thing in any way. It is criticizing and dissecting ideas and doctrines, some of which, I feel, and which the booklet explains did not come from the Bible. Obviously, said ideas and doctrines are held and cherished by people, and so there are bound to be hurt feelings and offenses from time to time. It’s how we handle these feelings that God is most interested in.

Yes, I concur. Now to get down to the subjects at hand. You have made a statement in a
previous post. Can we discuss it?

Originally Posted by Protestant101
Many Catholic practices can indeed be found in pagan roots. I don’t have a problem with anyone saying that - and it isn’t just Adventists.

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[greggy53]

LOL, don’t hold your breath - promise??? Because I will not be in a hurry! But I will come back to that point here asap.

No, I won’t hold my breath, and I certainly don’t expect to see any evidence from you because there is none. The pat answer has always been that the truth was suppressed by the Roman Church. And if that is true then that begs the question: If the true history of Christianity was suppressed by the Roman Church how do you know it? The pat answer then becomes Ellen Whites prophesies. It all boils down to the writings of one woman who started having visions after recovering from a head injury. This is not meant to demean the SDA in any way. It is a historical verifiable fact.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Hi P101,

I was glad to see that you returned! I hope, that as you promised, you will share your thoughts regarding the scriptural discussion we began on the book of Hebrews, Jesus as our High Priest, and how the The Eucharist fits into it all. I was really looking forward to your return and your thoughts. This is where you can let your light shine in the discussion of beliefs from the Bible which you have been telling the other’s you would much prefer to do. Thanks!!!

For those of you who have been reading the articles on the Amazing Facts website, here is an interesting post from The AdventistToday blog (A blog run by Seventh-day Adventists). I origianlly found this link on the SDA2RC blogspot blog (a blog run by Catholics who were former Seventh-day Adventists,and the first link in my signaure line below).

There is such a wide divergence of thought in the Seventh-day Adventists denomination these days, and by comparing what an Adventist wrote in the link below, with what Adventists write on Amazing Facts, you will have a good idea of those divergent beliefs.

atoday.com/content/will-adventist-mass-public-evangelism-ever-grow

God bless all!!!

 

[greggy53]

Hi P101,

I was glad to see that you returned! I hope, that as you promised, you will share your thoughts regarding the scriptural discussion we began on the book of Hebrews, Jesus as our High Priest, and how the The Eucharist fits into it all. I was really looking forward to your return and your thoughts. This is where you can let your light shine in the discussion of beliefs from the Bible which you have been telling the other’s you would much prefer to do. Thanks!!!

For those of you who have been reading the articles on the Amazing Facts website, here is an interesting post from The AdventistToday blog (A blog run by Seventh-day Adventists). I origianlly found this link on the SDA2RC blogspot blog (a blog run by Catholics who were former Seventh-day Adventists,and the first link in my signaure line below).

There is such a wide divergence of thought in the Seventh-day Adventists denomination these days, and by comparing what an Adventist wrote in the link below, with what Adventists write on Amazing Facts, you will have a good idea of those divergent beliefs.

atoday.com/content/will-adventist-mass-public-evangelism-ever-grow

God bless all!!!

Thanks for the link. It’s nice to see some SDA’s acknowledge their Christian brothers and sisters. I will spend some time checking out the blogs as well. Now is there an official site for SDA? other than the amazingfacts.org? Are there denominational splits within the SDA? I understand that some congregations are more progressive than others, but are they one Church, or split?

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Thanks for the link. It’s nice to see some SDA’s acknowledge their Christian brothers and sisters. I will spend some time checking out the blogs as well. Now is there an official site for SDA? other than the amazingfacts.org? Are there denominational splits within the SDA? I understand that some congregations are more progressive than others, but are they one Church, or split?

Hi greggy53!

You’re welcome! Here is the official SDA website:

adventist.org/

Within the SDA denomination, there are various levels of progressive and traditional/conservative, as in any organization. There was a movement in the early 80s when I belonged toward “Celebration Churches” which were more contemporary in music. They were/are part of the denomination and accepted by the General Conference.

It has come to my understanding that there are congregations who consider themselves SDAs but who have moved to independence from the General Conference. I have a friend who has invited me to preach at one in the D.C. area, but I have not accepted his invitation as of yet. Perhaps my becoming Catholic might affect the invitation, but then again, maybe not. I have just not felt impressed to go there to preach. It might be interesting though!

As for further “splinter” groups, there may be additional ones but I’m can’t speak to that.

Amazing Facts is just one ministry in the SDA denomination, and recognized as such by the General Conference. There are many independent ministries such as Amazing Facts, some with their own television shows, which are recognized by the General Conference…the highest earthly authority of their denomination.

Many of the independent ministries go more in depth as to what SDAs believe, while the official site gives a broad overview of beliefs, as well as official SDA postions and guidelines on such things as abortion, the environment, military service, etc.

One of the authors who helped develop the SDA guidelines on abortion, recently converted to Catholicism. She was disappointed that the SDA denomination’s official position adopted on abortion was not pro-life. She as been on “The Journey Home” on EWTN, and has her own blog called “The Joy’s of Being Catholic”. I highly recommend that you check it out as she presents some very good information! You can google "The Joys of Being Catholic and find it. Her name is Teresa Beem. I like her blogs very much!

Hope some of this helps!

God bless all!!!