Seventh Day Adventists

[Protestant101]

No, I won’t hold my breath, and I certainly don’t expect to see any evidence from you because there is none. The pat answer has always been that the truth was suppressed by the Roman Church. And if that is true then that begs the question: If the true history of Christianity was suppressed by the Roman Church how do you know it? The pat answer then becomes Ellen Whites prophesies. It all boils down to the writings of one woman who started having visions after recovering from a head injury. This is not meant to demean the SDA in any way. It is a historical verifiable fact.

That’s quite alright. I don’t see your comments as demeaning at all. I do recognize where they originally come from, and I would not hesitate to question that source; but I am perceiving your posts as sincere, and non-demeaning.

A lot of bickering seems to take place over history, and what really happened with various things. To me, almost all history is activist in nature; and it is no easy task to decipher what is true and what is not, so as far as using history as sole proof, I would not accept that. But more later, I will read the booklet in question asap and get back to this topic for those who are interested.

TO Patrick: Howdy! Would you be open to me starting another topic on the Hebrews questions/comments you had proposed? It would make more sense to me to do that, and we could link to this thread in the opening post. If it’s OK with you; I will start the topic tomorrow, or tomorrow evening.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Greggy53,

I have no argument with your characterization of the site as ‘filth’ - even if some people want to stand the obvious on its head so that it does not appear so obvious… this site, “… walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck and flaps around like a duck … you know… it really is a duck!”

I have many faults but hatred is not among them. The word “filth” that I used to describe the contents of SDA accusations against the Catholic Church was not the best choice of words. I think “trash” would be a more apt description of the lies the SDA teach as truth about God’s Church.
Concerning baseless charges lets take a look at one small excerpt from an article currently posted on an official SDA website. This article specifically charges the Catholic Church of worshiping pagan Gods, and offers no references, no evidence whatsoever to support that claim.

This characteristic itself was typical of all the pagan nations, which by conquest perpetually added to their list of deities. Says Durant in The Story of Civilization: "There were gods who presided over every moment of a man’s life, gods of the house and garden, of food and drink, of health and sickness.” The Roman Church gathered these gods into her bosom and gave them saints’ names….

Note how they try to legitimize the accusation by attaching it to a quote from a legitimate history of civilization. The accusation of Catholic pagan worship is not part of the actual history, but they want you to think it is. It is very clever editing. They use quote marks to protect themselves legally but to the unwary the inference is very real.
Now, if I am reading that last sentence correctly the SDA teach that the Catholic saints never existed, that the Church invented them, and named them after pagan gods. Am I reading that right? If not please let me know. If I am gleaning the correct meaning then you need to provide some evidence, some references for that claim. If there are none then am I not just in calling it lies, and trash?

Don’t get too carried away with Durant… he had his own anti-Catholic agenda.

Actually, I think any one who prides themselves on actually thinking something through would just take the time to go through history and examining what all took place from the time of Christ founding His Church on Peter and E.G.White founding whatever it is she founded. Truly, if nothing else you will see what a late comer White was and how she and Miller were both an increadibly Great Disappointment on people easily lead away from Christ’s Teachings and Christ’s Church.

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Greggy53,

You know… there is a reason why the Park Service puts up signs that say, “Don’t Feed the Bears”… and the reason is that you will run out of what ever it is you are handing out - and the bears will not be satisfied. There is no argument with this person because he twists what is said and evades what he doesn’t want to address. You trying to justify yourself at his name calling is right up there with ‘feeding the bears’. Honest. With the bears, it is a game… and no different here. See it for what it is and move on. In my opinion, you will burn up a lot of emotional currency with his baiting you and you will accomplish nothing.

I’m someone who is asking legitimate questions to those who are telling me that the history of Christianity is not what I and millions of others believe it was, and all I want is to see some evidence for those claims. The website lists no bibliography, or any kind of references for this article. I just want evidence that what the SDA is telling me is the truth. If they can’t provide any evidence why should I believe them? Why shouldn’t I think they are lying? And if they are lying about the history of Christianity what else are they lying about? Aren’t you curious about where they get their “historical “ information from?

I have an acquaintance that is SDA, and I like him very much. He educated, well spoken, diligent in his work, and sincere in his religious beliefs. I have no doubt there are many like him in the SDA. Here is the web site: amazingfacts.org The article I quoted was from the free on-line library it’s called “Baptized Paganism” it’s at the top of the list. I am not afraid to give any references for anything I have claimed about the SDA or anything else. I’m not the smartest man in the world by any means, but I’m not mixed up either, not about this.

Yes indeed many of our secular holidays are rooted in ancient pagan beliefs. Equinox , winter solstice etc. I was taught all of this in Catholic school. If you tell me you believe we are worshipping the Easter bunny at Easter that is fine with me, but the articles take it much further when they claim that the Catholic Church made up the saints, and gave them the names of pagan gods….That is an attempt to re-write history, and you can’t expect us to believe it without physical evidence that it ever occurred.

It’s an accusation that so far stands un refuted. Evidence please.

Have a blessed day,.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

TO Patrick: Howdy! Would you be open to me starting another topic on the Hebrews questions/comments you had proposed? It would make more sense to me to do that, and we could link to this thread in the opening post. If it’s OK with you; I will start the topic tomorrow, or tomorrow evening.

Hi P101!

If it’s all the same to you I’d prefer to just stay here and carry on our discussion, since a great deal of my initial comments are just a couple pages back…and sometimes the “context” gets lost by starting new threads.

So if you and I can focus on our discussion (in the midst of other questions that arise) right here, let’s keep going…unless someone complains and we get shut down by a moderator…then we can start a new thread and reference this one.

So let’s just keep going here! Thanks!

God bless all!!!

 

[greggy53]

Hi, Greggy53,

I have no argument with your characterization of the site as ‘filth’ - even if some people want to stand the obvious on its head so that it does not appear so obvious… this site, “… walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck and flaps around like a duck … you know… it really is a duck!”

Don’t get too carried away with Durant… he had his own anti-Catholic agenda.

Actually, I think any one who prides themselves on actually thinking something through would just take the time to go through history and examining what all took place from the time of Christ founding His Church on Peter and E.G.White founding whatever it is she founded. Truly, if nothing else you will see what a late comer White was and how she and Miller were both an increadibly Great Disappointment on people easily lead away from Christ’s Teachings and Christ’s Church.

God bless

I am not angry with Protestant101 or any other individual. I do have serious problems with organizations who lead astray unwary and trusting people who are trying to find Christ. I don’t believe for one minute that Doug Bachelor, and the others who write the lies at amazingfacts.org are innocently trying to find Christ. I can tell by reading and watching them that they are too intelligent not to understand what they are doing. Like Kipling once wrote “They twist the truth to makes traps for fools.”

 

[greggy53]

Hi, Greggy53,

You know… there is a reason why the Park Service puts up signs that say, “Don’t Feed the Bears”… and the reason is that you will run out of what ever it is you are handing out - and the bears will not be satisfied. There is no argument with this person because he twists what is said and evades what he doesn’t want to address. You trying to justify yourself at his name calling is right up there with ‘feeding the bears’. Honest. With the bears, it is a game… and no different here. See it for what it is and move on. In my opinion, you will burn up a lot of emotional currency with his baiting you and you will accomplish nothing.
Have a blessed day,.

I don’t feel like I’m burning emotional currency if I understand your drift. I’ve seen double talk before and it doesn’t stress me out. (Otherwise how could I ever read a newspaper?) I think a lot of it is just parroting what is preached in their Churches, and what the amazingfacts.org. folks spew out.
You see I’m not after the bears, I’m after their keepers.

 

[tqualey]

Have fun…

I don’t feel like I’m burning emotional currency if I understand your drift. I’ve seen double talk before and it doesn’t stress me out. (Otherwise how could I ever read a newspaper?) I think a lot of it is just parroting what is preached in their Churches, and what the amazingfacts.org. folks spew out.
You see I’m not after the bears, I’m after their keepers.

God bless

 

[Protestant101]

Hi P101!

If it’s all the same to you I’d prefer to just stay here and carry on our discussion, since a great deal of my initial comments are just a couple pages back…and sometimes the “context” gets lost by starting new threads.

So if you and I can focus on our discussion (in the midst of other questions that arise) right here, let’s keep going…unless someone complains and we get shut down by a moderator…then we can start a new thread and reference this one.

So let’s just keep going here! Thanks!

God bless all!!!

OK, not a major problem - there are so many topics happening at once in this thread; thought it might be an idea to have a separate topic on it.

Now I did note from your post that your text selections were from Heb chapter 9. I am not quite clear on exactly what you are interested in hearing me comment on in that chapter. So far, I hear you saying that you see the Catholic Eucharist, as a part of this chapter; meaning, from your point of view that we have a type or example of the Real Sacrifice on Calvary, within your Eucharist doctrine? Is this what you are seeing in hebrews chapter nine? Am I correct in reading this much into your comment? If so, can you please restate any specific point you wish me to make, with the attendant Bible texts.

One thing I have observed in the Book of Hebrews is how the apostle Paul explains in the seventh chapter, that Jesus is a Priest of a different order from that of the Jewish priesthood of His day; we could read the whole chapter to get the setting. But for now, as we discuss Heb chapter nine, we must keep in mind the correct context, as set forth in other books of Hebrews. I believe the importance of this will become clearer as we move forward. I believe too, that my earlier comment re calling the OT sanctuary service a type or example, rather than a “copy” as your translation put it, will become much clearer, based upon this very point too.

So to summarize; I just need a recap of the specific point/s you want to explore with me here. Thanks!

 

[Protestant101]

Hi, Greggy53,

I have no argument with your characterization of the site as ‘filth’ - even if some people want to stand the obvious on its head so that it does not appear so obvious… this site, “… walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck and flaps around like a duck … you know… it really is a duck!”

Don’t get too carried away with Durant… he had his own anti-Catholic agenda.

Actually, I think any one who prides themselves on actually thinking something through would just take the time to go through history and examining what all took place from the time of Christ founding His Church on Peter and E.G.White founding whatever it is she founded. Truly, if nothing else you will see what a late comer White was and how she and Miller were both an increadibly Great Disappointment on people easily lead away from Christ’s Teachings and Christ’s Church.

God bless

Tom, you are having problems with ducks and bears; whatever will you see on your horizon next!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Patrick Murebil,

I was re-reading Hebrews 9 and the NAB had some interesting footnotes.

Hi P101!

If it’s all the same to you I’d prefer to just stay here and carry on our discussion, since a great deal of my initial comments are just a couple pages back…and sometimes the “context” gets lost by starting new threads.

So if you and I can focus on our discussion (in the midst of other questions that arise) right here, let’s keep going…unless someone complains and we get shut down by a moderator…then we can start a new thread and reference this one.

So let’s just keep going here! Thanks!

God bless all!!!

Picking up at verse 22…

**22
17 According to the law almost everything is purified by blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23
18 Therefore, it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified by these rites, but the heavenly things themselves by better sacrifices than these.
24
For Christ did not enter into a sanctuary made by hands, a copy of the true one, but heaven itself, that he might now appear before God on our behalf.
25
Not that he might offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters each year into the sanctuary with blood that is not his own;
26
if that were so, he would have had to suffer repeatedly from the foundation of the world. But now once for all he has appeared at the end of the ages to take away sin by his sacrifice.
27
Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment,
28
so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him. **

Here are the footnotes

17 [22] Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness: in fact, ancient Israel did envisage other means of obtaining forgiveness; the Old Testament mentions contrition of heart (Psalm 51:17), fasting (Joel 2:12), and almsgiving (Sirach 3:29). The author is limiting his horizon to the sacrificial cult, which did always involve the shedding of blood for its expiatory and unitive value.

18 [23-28] Since the blood of animals became a cleansing symbol among Old Testament prefigurements, it was necessary that the realities foreshadowed be brought into being by a shedding of blood that was infinitely more effective by reason of its worth (Hebrews 9:23). Christ did not simply prefigure the heavenly realities (Hebrews 9:24) by performing an annual sacrifice with a blood not his own (Hebrews 9:25); he offered the single sacrifice of himself as the final annulment of sin (Hebrews 9:26). Just as death is the unrepeatable act that ends a person’s life, so Christ’s offering of himself for all is the unrepeatable sacrifice that has once for all achieved redemption (Hebrews 9:27-28).

19 [26] At the end of the ages: the use of expressions such as this shows that the author of Hebrews, despite his interest in the Platonic concept of an eternal world above superior to temporal reality here below, nevertheless still clings to the Jewish Christian eschatology with its sequence of “the present age” and “the age to come.”

And here is the link to the entire section: usccb.org/nab/bible/hebrews/hebrews9.htm

My understanding is that the Eucharistic Christ can not ‘die’ again - rather, He is giving us His Risen Flesh and Blood to nourish us both spiritually and under the appearance of bread to nourish us physically. The God Who created all out of nothing can do Anything He wants - and He wanted us to have His Flesh and Blood. For those who deny the Eucharist, it is just so similar to the Jews who walked away from Christ in John 6 complaining that, “This is a hard saying - how can He give us His Flesh to eat?” You will recall that previous to this, no one was shaking their heads “No!” when Christ took the loaves and fish and multiplied them so as to feed a crowd of over 5,000. Was blessing the fish a ‘hard saying’? No one walked away from that meal - at least not until after they had eaten their fill!

You know… today, with all of our advanced and sophisticaated technology, no one could feed 5,000 people without significant preparation. Try calling Pizza Hut or Dominos and get a ‘take out-delivery’ for enough plain cheese pizza for 500 people and see what you have to go through as far as advanced prep goes.

God bless,

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

OK, not a major problem - there are so many topics happening at once in this thread; thought it might be an idea to have a separate topic on it.

Now I did note from your post that your text selections were from Heb chapter 9. I am not quite clear on exactly what you are interested in hearing me comment on in that chapter. So far, I hear you saying that you see the Catholic Eucharist, as a part of this chapter; meaning, from your point of view that we have a type or example of the Real Sacrifice on Calvary, within your Eucharist doctrine? Is this what you are seeing in hebrews chapter nine? Am I correct in reading this much into your comment? If so, can you please restate any specific point you wish me to make, with the attendant Bible texts.

One thing I have observed in the Book of Hebrews is how the apostle Paul explains in the seventh chapter, that Jesus is a Priest of a different order from that of the Jewish priesthood of His day; we could read the whole chapter to get the setting. But for now, as we discuss Heb chapter nine, we must keep in mind the correct context, as set forth in other books of Hebrews. I believe the importance of this will become clearer as we move forward. I believe too, that my earlier comment re calling the OT sanctuary service a type or example, rather than a “copy” as your translation put it, will become much clearer, based upon this very point too.

So to summarize; I just need a recap of the specific point/s you want to explore with me here. Thanks!

Hi P101,

Things get lost in these threads even when we stay focused…LOL I’ll do my best to bring us up to date.

I replied to you regarding the Eucharist and Calvary in Post # 538.

You replied to that in **Post # 540 **and cited Hebrews 9:22, 28.

I replied to you in Post # 555, based on your citation of Heb. 9:22,28, with some thoughts regarding Jesus as our High Priest with citations from Heb. 9, Heb. 6, and Genesis.

You replied to me in Post # 557 that you would address my thoughts in Post # 555 when you returned.

So I believe that is where we are, and you can now respond with your thoughts on my thoughts in Post # 555.

Please don’t feel restricted to Hebrews chapter 9 in responding. Please use any scriptures, as I did, that support your response and beliefs!

I agree with you that Jesus is High Priest of a different order than the priests in His day. Paul states in Hebrews that Jesus is a priest forever in the order of Melchizadek…but I pointed that out in Post # 555 so I won’t rehash that here.

So I think we’re up to speed now…lol. I look forward to your responses! Thanks!

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Hi, Patrick Murebil,

I was re-reading Hebrews 9 and the NAB had some interesting footnotes.

And here is the link to the entire section: usccb.org/nab/bible/hebrews/hebrews9.htm

My understanding is that the Eucharistic Christ can not ‘die’ again - rather, He is giving us His Risen Flesh and Blood to nourish us both spiritually and under the appearance of bread to nourish us physically. The God Who created all out of nothing can do Anything He wants - and He wanted us to have His Flesh and Blood. For those who deny the Eucharist, it is just so similar to the Jews who walked away from Christ in John 6 complaining that, “This is a hard saying - how can He give us His Flesh to eat?” You will recall that previous to this, no one was shaking their heads “No!” when Christ took the loaves and fish and multiplied them so as to feed a crowd of over 5,000. Was blessing the fish a ‘hard saying’? No one walked away from that meal - at least not until after they had eaten their fill!

You know… today, with all of our advanced and sophisticaated technology, no one could feed 5,000 people without significant preparation. Try calling Pizza Hut or Dominos and get a ‘take out-delivery’ for enough plain cheese pizza for 500 people and see what you have to go through as far as advanced prep goes.

God bless,

Hi Tom!

Thank you so much for those foot notes and your thoughts! They made me think of a couple things.

Thanks for pointing out that the Eucharistic Christ cannot die again. When I was a protestant, I was always abhorred by what I thought was a Catholic priest re-sacrificing Jesus at every Mass. That is not the case at all. It is a re-presentation of the one perfect one time sacrifice of Jesus on the cross…and yet it goes beyond that to present His risen, glorious, victorious, living life to us.

Forgiveness of sins - His body and blood given to us, which we receive as sinners in need of His saving grace…and;

Spiritual nourishment - The True Bread of Life, The True Manna, The True Bread from Heaven.

It is difficult for protestants to understand this because they do not have an understanding of The Sacraments or the Sacramental aspect of God’s Church. Not only are sacraments symbols of the higher and ture reality, they are used by God to bring that reality to us and impart grace to His followers.

How often I sang as a Protesant the hymn, Washed in the Blood. And through faith, I believe I was. But it was all just a mental, emotional, symbolic, and intecllectual understanding. But as a Catholic, taking the scriptures and Jesus at His word…by eating His flesh and drinking His blood, that once for all time perfect sacrifice, I am now literally and physically washed in His blood, as well as spiritually.

Remember man was created by God out of two things: 1) The Physical - the clay and earth which God molded, and 2) The Spiritual - God’s breath/spirit which He breathes into us, gives to us from Himself which unites us with Him and with each other in a common creation.

The Sacraments of The Church not only teach this to mankind better than any other way, but they make our union with God complete, and completly real, in both our physical and spiritual natures. And I can attest to the fact, as I’m sure the other protestant converts here (I’m thinking of benedict) can confirm, that Catholicism brought to us a more complete and more full life and relationship with Jesus, which we had as protestants, but also which we sought as protestants.

As for the multiplying of the loaves and the feeding of the 5,000…what a great miracle Jesus performed for the multitudes just before He taught them that they had to eat His flesh and drink His blood to have eternal life. This shows that from that one loaf, multitudes could be fed by Jesus. Is this not the truth of the Eucharist. From the one loaf, The True Bread come down from Heaven, Jesus feeds the multitudes of His followers with His body, blood, soul, and divinity which gives life…eternal life. No matter how many times the bread is broken at Mass, throughout the world, throughout the ages, it is just one undivded source of sustenance for life…Jesus Christ! Amen!

And yet after this miracle, when all were fed and happy and hopeful, Jesus teaches them that they must eat His flesh and drink His blood to have eternal life…and many…many went away sad because it was a teaching that was too hard. To the Jews it was scandalous to even think about eating human flesh. And you know what else was shameful and scandalous to the Jews? The cross.

Is it no surprise then that even today the cross and the Eucharist pose the greatest roadblocks for mankind to come to God in complete and full surrender? The cross is difficult for me each day when I pick it up and try to carry it…it is hard indeed to sacrifice self for others. The Eucharist is so valuable and so helpful and so necessary in that journey of denying self and taking up the cross and following Jesus. Praise God! His mercy endures forever! And because God is merciful to me, I fall short and fail when I do not extend that mercy to others. May God have mercy on us all and give us the grace to be merciful to each other.

I apologize for going off on a “preach” But thank you Tom for helping me to remember the blessings of our faith!

God bless all!!!

 

[tqualey]

You are more then welcome …

I appreciated you sharing your personal experience of your conversion to Catholic Faith. You statements can honestly give courage and insight into others

Hi Tom!

Thank you so much for those foot notes and your thoughts! They made me think of a couple things.

Thanks for pointing out that the Eucharistic Christ cannot die again. When I was a protestant, I was always abhorred by what I thought was a Catholic priest re-sacrificing Jesus at every Mass. That is not the case at all. It is a re-presentation of the one perfect one time sacrifice of Jesus on the cross…and yet it goes beyond that to present His risen, glorious, victorious, living life to us.

Forgiveness of sins - His body and blood given to us, which we receive as sinners in need of His saving grace…and;

Spiritual nourishment - The True Bread of Life, The True Manna, The True Bread from Heaven.

It is difficult for protestants to understand this because they do not have an understanding of The Sacraments or the Sacramental aspect of God’s Church. Not only are sacraments symbols of the higher and ture reality, they are used by God to bring that reality to us and impart grace to His followers.

How often I sang as a Protesant the hymn, Washed in the Blood. And through faith, I believe I was. But it was all just a mental, emotional, symbolic, and intecllectual understanding. But as a Catholic, taking the scriptures and Jesus at His word…by eating His flesh and drinking His blood, that once for all time perfect sacrifice, I am now literally and physically washed in His blood, as well as spiritually.

Remember man was created by God out of two things: 1) The Physical - the clay and earth which God molded, and 2) The Spiritual - God’s breath/spirit which He breathes into us, gives to us from Himself which unites us with Him and with each other in a common creation.

The Sacraments of The Church not only teach this to mankind better than any other way, but they make our union with God complete, and completly real, in both our physical and spiritual natures. And I can attest to the fact, as I’m sure the other protestant converts here (I’m thinking of benedict) can confirm, that Catholicism brought to us a more complete and more full life and relationship with Jesus, which we had as protestants, but also which we sought as protestants.

As for the multiplying of the loaves and the feeding of the 5,000…what a great miracle Jesus performed for the multitudes just before He taught them that they had to eat His flesh and drink His blood to have eternal life. This shows that from that one loaf, multitudes could be fed by Jesus. Is this not the truth of the Eucharist. From the one loaf, The True Bread come down from Heaven, Jesus feeds the multitudes of His followers with His body, blood, soul, and divinity which gives life…eternal life. No matter how many times the bread is broken at Mass, throughout the world, throughout the ages, it is just one undivded source of sustenance for life…Jesus Christ! Amen!

And yet after this miracle, when all were fed and happy and hopeful, Jesus teaches them that they must eat His flesh and drink His blood to have eternal life…and many…many went away sad because it was a teaching that was too hard. To the Jews it was scandalous to even think about eating human flesh. And you know what else was shameful and scandalous to the Jews? The cross.

Is it no surprise then that even today the cross and the Eucharist pose the greatest roadblocks for mankind to come to God in complete and full surrender? The cross is difficult for me each day when I pick it up and try to carry it…it is hard indeed to sacrifice self for others. The Eucharist is so valuable and so helpful and so necessary in that journey of denying self and taking up the cross and following Jesus. Praise God! His mercy endures forever! And because God is merciful to me, I fall short and fail when I do not extend that mercy to others. May God have mercy on us all and give us the grace to be merciful to each other.

I apologize for going off on a “preach” But thank you Tom for helping me to remember the blessings of our faith!

God bless all!!!

God bless

 

[Protestant101]

Hi P101!

If it’s all the same to you I’d prefer to just stay here and carry on our discussion, since a great deal of my initial comments are just a couple pages back…and sometimes the “context” gets lost by starting new threads.

So if you and I can focus on our discussion (in the midst of other questions that arise) right here, let’s keep going…unless someone complains and we get shut down by a moderator…then we can start a new thread and reference this one.

So let’s just keep going here! Thanks!

God bless all!!!

OK Patrick; the post you are referring to is on page 37 of this topic, and it is the last post on that page, for those who are interested.

In the first portion of your post, we are in basic agreement, and, as expected, the latter part of your post is where you lead into the whole point of your ideas on this topic. I will quote the portion of your post on that page below, and just ask you to clarify if this is what you want me to comment on:

"How do we access that cleansing blood of our High Priest who intercedes for us sinners with God? It is through the means Jesus Himself put in place for those of us who live hundreds and thousands of years after the event of Calvary…and that is His Supper…The Last Supper…The Eucharist…which Jesus as our High Priest gives us in His ministry for us.

Read Hebrews chapters 6 and 7.

Hebrews 6:19 This we have as an anchor of the soul, sure and firm, which reaches into the interior behind the veil, 20 where Jesus has entered on our behalf as forerunner, becoming high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Genesis 14:18 Melchizedek, king of Salem, brought out bread and wine, and being a priest of God Most High, he blessed Abram…

No one can be saved without Calvary, Jesus. People can be saved without receiving Eucharist, or baptism, etc…yet that is because of God’s mercy and understanding of circumstances beyond human control which prevent people from actively participating in those blessings of grace and salvation.

But God grants most of us ample opportunities to discover and accept the fullness of His salvation and the blessings He provides to us. It is our duty to follow God in fullness and in truth as He guides us deeper in love in our relationship with Him. To ignore or resist God is death."

My Initial Comments:

While I have other questions about your post; I will start with something simple, regarding your reference to Genesis 14:18 Can you explain what your purpose in making this reference was?

“Brought forth bread and wine” within this text certainly would indicate that it was to refresh Abram and his men, exhausted with the late battle and fatigues of the journey; but definitely not in the way of any kind of redemptive sacrifice, to make such a connection would be an idle conjecture, having no doctrinal or exegetical connection to the Last Supper, and the Catholic doctrines of Eucharist.:tiphat:

 

[Protestant101]

No, I won’t hold my breath, and I certainly don’t expect to see any evidence from you because there is none. The pat answer has always been that the truth was suppressed by the Roman Church. And if that is true then that begs the question: If the true history of Christianity was suppressed by the Roman Church how do you know it? The pat answer then becomes Ellen Whites prophesies. It all boils down to the writings of one woman who started having visions after recovering from a head injury. This is not meant to demean the SDA in any way. It is a historical verifiable fact.

Well, first of all, I didn’t say I was going to present any evidence of anything. I said I would look over the booklet being criticized, and then get back here to comment about the accusations being made against the Adventist Church by some posters here.

I have found my copy of this booklet; and read it through, slowly, the other night. As a general comment about this booklet, Baptised Paganism, I would say I have no problem with this booklet. I see it as written tastefully, and accurately. There are actually only two pages of this booklet which make any direct comment about Catholics and how Catholic leaders of the past have incorporated various pagan traditions into the Catholic Church.

Many churches today still see this as an acceptable way to garner in new members that they otherwise may not have been able to.

I guess I would need to see you come up with something specific that Adventists have said, and that you can present evidence against. Is there a particular pagan practice we have spoken out against, within this booklet, and that you could show me why it is wrong for us to say it like we do? The paragraph you refer to out of this booklet is quite general and does not name something specific, so I am hoping you can help me with that?

 

[greggy53]

Well, first of all, I didn’t say I was going to present any evidence of anything. I said I would look over the booklet being criticized, and then get back here to comment about the accusations being made against the Adventist Church by some posters here.

I have found my copy of this booklet; and read it through, slowly, the other night. As a general comment about this booklet, Baptised Paganism, I would say I have no problem with this booklet. I see it as written tastefully, and accurately. There are actually only two pages of this booklet which make any direct comment about Catholics and how Catholic leaders of the past have incorporated various pagan traditions into the Catholic Church.

Many churches today still see this as an acceptable way to garner in new members that they otherwise may not have been able to.

I guess I would need to see you come up with something specific that Adventists have said, and that you can present evidence against. Is there a particular pagan practice we have spoken out against, within this booklet, and that you could show me why it is wrong for us to say it like we do? The paragraph you refer to out of this booklet is quite general and does not name something specific, so I am hoping you can help me with that?

There are numerous remnants of ancient pagan traditions in our society that the Church did not initiate. Just because someone puts a pumpkin on their porch on Halloween doesn’t make them a pagan worshiper anymore than some who goes to services on Saturday means that they worship the pagan God Saturn.
I mentioned one specific accusation from the article that claimed that the Catholic saints were in essence invented by the Church and given the names of pagan Gods. This is only one small accusation out of many from the piece. By accepting the article you evidently agree then that the Catholic church re-wrote history in this instance. I was looking for actual evidence that this took place. You cannot provide any so, my claim that the article is trash goes unchallenged.

 

[Javl]

Protestant101:

I would still like to know which pagan practices that the Catholic Church uses today.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

I guess so. But I would still like to know so that all the lies, myths, and mis-conceptions about the CC can be rebuked, etc.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[greggy53]

I guess so. But I would still like to know so that all the lies, myths, and mis-conceptions about the CC can be rebuked, etc.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I agree, whenever possible we need to challenge such allegations, and inuendos wirh the truth. Perhaps then they will start questioning their leaders about where they are getting their “amazing facts.”

 

[Javl]

I agree, whenever possible we need to challenge such allegations, and inuendos wirh the truth. Perhaps then they will start questioning their leaders about where they are getting their “amazing facts.”

Yes I agree, and I pray so. Keep in mind of what Jesus said ( paraphrasing ) “Who ever is against you is against me…”, so since WE ARE His One True Church, we will always be attacked, under the prodding of the evil one, because of disagreement, not liking, or the
misunderstanding of Jesus’ teachings and statements.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem