Seventh Day Adventists

[tqualey]

Hi, Len,

Thanks Tom. I wish I didn’t have to agree with you, but I do. I’m almost of the belief that the great deceiver is at work here. How else could it be explained?

Anyway, you are all on my prayer list. Again, thank you and God Bless.

Len

Cinette used the example of the wheat and tares - and, I think this is correct. You have people who once had the Truth of the Catholic Church - and form pride and vanity and hubris - decided that founding their own church in their own image was what they wanted. Not only did they deceive themselves, but have sewn the seeds for the destruction of others.

From a different aspects, just look at these so-called U.S. Catholic politicians who have sold their souls for a vote on funding abortion. At one time one would have thought that they would uphold life - but, they have become the spokespersons of death. The Great Deceiver never sleeps and while sloth is one of the deadly sins - the Deceiver is truly hard at work!

Thanks for the prayers -

God bless

 

[Javl]

*It appears to me that the SDA believe that Jesus made a mistake when he said “Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” - they believe that Jesus did not keep his promise or changed his mind or…

They deny history.

The CC is the largest Christian faith going back to the Apostles - this is recorded in history. Yes we have many sinners, we are all sinners and some are very bad. But you cannot reject Peter because of Judas can you? The story of the wheat and the tares is very real and it will always be so until the day of judgement. The evil one is always at work trying to get more recruits.

We are fortunate that Jesus set up the scructures and inspired the Apostles (who were transformed at Pentecost) to pass on the Good News. Our glorious history is testimony to this. The CC belongs to all of humankind. Our Pope is the Father of ALL Christians (appointed by Jesus through Apostolic Succession).

Our world is in a bad state and all people of Faith should unite and examine history and the scriptures and come together. Jesus did say there would be one flock and one shepherd. Unity is strength and the forces of good will always prevail against the forces of darkness.

Take a look at this: news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/8441813.stm*

We should really all be praying for Christian unity. This is very important and is in accordance with Jesus’ wishes.

Blessings to all
Cinette

Hi Cinette:

Welcome to the thread. If you’d like to be frustrated, ignored, argued with, etc., then just hang around. You’ll get plenty of that here with the SDAs. Whether or not you are right, ( even giving undeniable evidence from scripture ) you will be ignored or told you are wrong.
It’s a case of ( my favorite saying ) “Don’t confuse me with facts, my mind is made up”

So, you see how it is. Don’t say we didn’t warn you. Good Luck and God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem
.

 

[Javl]

We have the exact same child sacrifice in this country. It’s called abortion…Which reminds me of another question I have for our SDA friends. What is the official stand of the SDA concerning abortion?

That question has been asked many times. It has been ignored, so please don’t expect an answer.

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[hammerswinger]

The official General Conference position is this on abortion.
Abortion is not acceptable except under these circumstances -
Threat to the mothers life if gestation is continued
Seriously malformed fetus
Pregnancy from rape or incest
These options are not taken lightly. Abortion is viewed as an option only in the most dire cases. Life is precious.
You will find that the Adventist health system works together with the Catholic health system in cases where these criteria exist for Catholic parishioners. Catholics use the Adventist health system to get around their own rules. Nobody’s innocent.

 

[greggy53]

The official General Conference position is this on abortion.
Abortion is not acceptable except under these circumstances -
Threat to the mothers life if gestation is continued
Seriously malformed fetus
Pregnancy from rape or incest
These options are not taken lightly. Abortion is viewed as an option only in the most dire cases. Life is precious.
You will find that the Adventist health system works together with the Catholic health system in cases where these criteria exist for Catholic parishioners. Catholics use the Adventist health system to get around their own rules. Nobody’s innocent.

Unborn Children are innocent my friend.

 

[Javl]

The latest JW update is that Jesus is the first creation of God. They’ve received a lot of flak on the Michael bit so it’s no longer emphasized. The SDA still clings to Jesus being Michael, not matter what scriptural proof that you give them to prove otherwise.

Also, there’s the matter of the Sabbath and “soul sleep”. No matter what you say about it, you are wrong. With their beliefs, they are bordering on cultism.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Cinette]

Hi Cinette:

Welcome to the thread. If you’d like to be frustrated, ignored, argued with, etc., then just hang around. You’ll get plenty of that here with the SDAs. Whether or not you are right, ( even giving undeniable evidence from scripture ) you will be ignored or told you are wrong.
It’s a case of ( my favorite saying ) “Don’t confuse me with facts, my mind is made up”

So, you see how it is. Don’t say we didn’t warn you. Good Luck and God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem
.

*I was up very early this morning and got to thinking about the SDAs. To me at least they believe in God. What is worse are people who are indifferent. There are people who say they believe in God and then…pass the salt please…they just don’t care…sure they believe but God doesn’t matter. Those are the people to be pitied and for which we must pray harder. I prefer atheists to those who are indifferent. At least the SDAs are fervent and do love God and that is important.

Yea…I know it is frustrating discoursing with people with closed minds. We are just as stubborn because we have the truth and we want them to say “WOW” because it is the fullness of truth and they disappoint us. Almost always. But you know, we do plant seeds and the Holy Spirit does the rest but then one must be open to the Holy Spirit. The HS does not interfere, he does not force himself on anyone. We* have to say YES!

Blessings
Cinette

 

[Cinette]

The official General Conference position is this on abortion.
Abortion is not acceptable except under these circumstances -
Threat to the mothers life if gestation is continued
Seriously malformed fetus
Pregnancy from rape or incest
These options are not taken lightly. Abortion is viewed as an option only in the most dire cases. Life is precious.
You will find that the Adventist health system works together with the Catholic health system in cases where these criteria exist for Catholic parishioners. Catholics use the Adventist health system to get around their own rules. Nobody’s innocent.

Abortion is ALWAYS KILLING**. Extinguishing a human life,no matter the circumstances is ALWAYS wrong. Please reflect on this and use your reason and change your thinking. We have to accept the consequences of our actions/sins (incent, rape etc) and it is not by committing another “convenient” sin that we put things right. In any case I know a person who is the product of rape and she is a marvellous woman who does so much good for people. No, please change your stance. We cannot play God.

Blessings
Cinette

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Hammerswinger,

Welcome to the list! This is a unique view you present here…

The official General Conference position is this on abortion.
Abortion is not acceptable except under these circumstances -
Threat to the mothers life if gestation is continued
Seriously malformed fetus
Pregnancy from rape or incest
These options are not taken lightly. Abortion is viewed as an option only in the most dire cases. Life is precious.
You will find that the Adventist health system works together with the Catholic health system in cases where these criteria exist for Catholic parishioners. Catholics use the Adventist health system to get around their own rules. Nobody’s innocent.

What is your source or reference for the statement: Catholics use the Adventist health system to get around their own rules. Nobody’s innocent.

God bless

 

[Javl]

The official General Conference position is this on abortion.
Abortion is not acceptable except under these circumstances -
Threat to the mothers life if gestation is continued
Seriously malformed fetus
Pregnancy from rape or incest
These options are not taken lightly. Abortion is viewed as an option only in the most dire cases. Life is precious.
You will find that the Adventist health system works together with the Catholic health system in cases where these criteria exist for Catholic parishioners. Catholics use the Adventist health system to get around their own rules. Nobody’s innocent.

Where did you get the information that the Catholic Church uses, an approves, the Adventist Health system?

The Catholic Church teaches that abortion, regardless of the circumstance or reason, is still the killing of an innocent life and is NEVER sanctioned.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Catdan]

What does the name
Michael actually mean?

The name Michael is of Hebrew origin, and is a word compiled of three separate hebrew words. These are:

(1) miy
This word is an interrogative pronoun of persons, according to Strong’s, and literally means “Who?”

(2) kiy
This is a conjunction, connecting miy with el.

(3) el
This word is normally translated “God” and refers most often to the God of heaven.

The name therefore literally means, as Strong’s puts it: Who (is) like God?

Interesting. Note also that the majority of times that this figure named Michael appears in scripture, he is found in some type of conflict with the Devil or his human followers, who represent the devil. This thought, along with the meaning of this name, brings to mind what the enemy desires for himself:

Isaiah 14:12-14
(12) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
(13) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
(14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

The Devil desires to be like God, yet whenever he encounters Michael, he is confronted with the question “Who is like God?” As if to say that he, Michael, is the one that is like God, and not the devil.

What does “archangel” mean? According to Strong’s, it means “chief angel.” Thayer’s Greek Definition says it means, “Chief of the angels.” So Michael is the chief angel, or chief of all the angels of God.

The Hebrew equivalent of “chief” is the Hebrew word sar which can be translated either chief, prince, ruler, or captain. Notice this verse:

Daniel 12:1-2
(1) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people…

Note carefully that the word translated “prince” here is this word “sar.” This same word is translated “captain” in verse 14 of Joshua chapter 5:

Joshua 5:13-15
(13) And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
(14) And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
(15) And the captain of the LORD’S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

This figure that appeared to Joshua must be the same one that appears in Daniel 12, for both hold to the same title of “sar” or “chief, head.” More proof is found in Revelation 12:7, where Michael is said to be the leader (and his angels) of the angels (hosts). The figure here in Joshua 5:14 is also the chief or leader of “the hosts of the Lord.”

Moreover, since this figure is the “chief” of the hosts, or angels, of the Lord, it must also be the same “archangel” of Jude 1:9 because archangel means, as we have seen… “chief of the angels.” Couple that with the fact that Christ himself comes with the “voice of the archangel” in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, making him the figure that appeared unto Joshua in chapter 5 verse 14. And we are not surprised at this, for the Angel in Joshua 5:14 spoke the same words that the “Angel of the Lord” told Moses in Exodus 3:5 whom he also worshiped, those words being:

“Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy.”

 

[Catdan]

Who then might this Michael the chief of Angels be other then Jesus Christ himself? Let us examine some of the verses just presented more closely for the purpose of providing for our critics even…

More Proof that this Michael
is the Lord Jesus Christ.

Read Daniel 12 one more time:

Daniel 12:1-2
(1) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Note that it is only after Michael stands up that those who sleep in the grave “shall awake.” Now read what Jesus said of himself:

John 5:25-29
(25) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
(26) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
(27) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The parallel between verse 29 and Daniel 12:2 is clearly seen. At the appearance and sound of both Michael and Jesus Christ the dead will rise from the grave. Who then is the one who will raise the dead? Michael or Jesus? Paul has the answer:

1 Thessalonians 4:16
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

Michael, who is really Jesus Christ, is the one with whose voice “of the archangel” raises the dead… “some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt!”

It is clearly seen who the “Angel of the Lord” is which appeared to patriarchs and prophets of the Old Testament. It was always Jesus Christ himself, declaring himself to be the chief of the angels of the Lord. But when found contending with Satan, he appears as “Michael,” asking him “Who is the like?” reminding him that Jesus is the one who is like God the Father, disappointing him of his desire to “be like the most High.” There is no other explanation our critics can provide for the fact that the “angel of the Lord” receives worship which is due only to God almighty then that this angel is none other then our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who is “God blessed forever” –Romans 9:5.

 

[Catdan]

Who is this Angel?

Notice the following passages from scripture:

Judges 13:21-22
(21) But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD.

An angel appeared to Manoah and his wife, claiming that their son will grow up to be a Nazarite, one who will “deliver Israel out of the hands of the Philistines” –verse 5. Shocked at the realization that this messenger was more then angel, he announced:

(22) And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

This angel, according to Samson’s Father, was God himself. He should have noticed this by the angel’s use of the divine phrase “I AM” in verse 11, but nevertheless, after many miraculous signs and wonders, he learned who this angel really was. How can an angel be called “God” in scripture? And if this angel truly is God, it can not be the Father, for “no man has seen God at any time” (John 1:18). Who then was this angel?

Let’s keep going. Note this next verse:

Exodus 3:2-4
(2) And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.(3) And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

We all know the story. Who spoke to Moses out of this flaming bush?

(4) And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

Notice that verse 2 says that the “angel of the Lord” appeared unto Moses in a flame of fire… “out of the midst of the bush.” These same words are found in verse 4, only this time the angel is described as “God.” Remember the divine phrase “I AM” as spoken by the angel in Judges 13:11? Well, here it is again, spoken by this angel in verse 14! Note once again how God in this case was “seen.” The Father, as we have learned, has never been seen. So, who is this angel?

Let’s do one more, although there is plenty where these came from.

Genesis 31:10-12
(10) And it came to pass at the time that the cattle conceived, that I lifted up mine eyes, and saw in a dream, and, behold, the rams which leaped upon the cattle were ringstraked, speckled, and grisled.
(11) And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I.
(12) And he said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee.

Okay, we read of yet another case where “the angel of God” appears. Now read the next verse:

(13) I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.

Wow! Pretty bold of an angel to make such a claim eh? What actually took place in Bethel? Take a look:

Genesis 28:16-19
(16) And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.
(17) And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.
(18) And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it.
(19) And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first.

Jacob realized that God was actually there with him, and this same God appeared to him as “the angel of God” later in Genesis 31:10. Who is this angel that keeps appearing throughout the scriptures, making these bold claims about himself? Could he be… Jesus Christ?

 

[greggy53]

None of what you posted in any way is any kind of “proof” or even remote evidence that Michael is God. I would have to conclude from what you and other SDA’s have posted on this is that you are worshipping a false God.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Who is this Angel?

Notice the following passages from scripture:

Judges 13:21-22
(21) But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD.

An angel appeared to Manoah and his wife, claiming that their son will grow up to be a Nazarite, one who will “deliver Israel out of the hands of the Philistines” –verse 5. Shocked at the realization that this messenger was more then angel, he announced:

(22) And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

This angel, according to Samson’s Father, was God himself. He should have noticed this by the angel’s use of the divine phrase “I AM” in verse 11, but nevertheless, after many miraculous signs and wonders, he learned who this angel really was. How can an angel be called “God” in scripture? And if this angel truly is God, it can not be the Father, for “no man has seen God at any time” (John 1:18). Who then was this angel?

Let’s keep going. Note this next verse:

Exodus 3:2-4
(2) And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.(3) And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

We all know the story. Who spoke to Moses out of this flaming bush?

(4) And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

Notice that verse 2 says that the “angel of the Lord” appeared unto Moses in a flame of fire… “out of the midst of the bush.” These same words are found in verse 4, only this time the angel is described as “God.” Remember the divine phrase “I AM” as spoken by the angel in Judges 13:11? Well, here it is again, spoken by this angel in verse 14! Note once again how God in this case was “seen.” The Father, as we have learned, has never been seen. So, who is this angel?

Let’s do one more, although there is plenty where these came from.

Genesis 31:10-12
(10) And it came to pass at the time that the cattle conceived, that I lifted up mine eyes, and saw in a dream, and, behold, the rams which leaped upon the cattle were ringstraked, speckled, and grisled.
(11) And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I.
(12) And he said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee.

Okay, we read of yet another case where “the angel of God” appears. Now read the next verse:

(13) I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.

Wow! Pretty bold of an angel to make such a claim eh? What actually took place in Bethel? Take a look:

Genesis 28:16-19
(16) And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.
(17) And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.
(18) And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it.
(19) And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first.

Jacob realized that God was actually there with him, and this same God appeared to him as “the angel of God” later in Genesis 31:10. Who is this angel that keeps appearing throughout the scriptures, making these bold claims about himself? Could he be… Jesus Christ?

Wow! Thanks for the wonderful texts that prove conclusively that Jesus does appear often in the bible as an angel. I think I’m going to save them to a file for futher use. I would add one thing. In Rev.19 we see an angel appears to John.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

John falls at the feet of this angel and the angel tells him not to do it because he is just a fellow prophet who has the testimony of Jesus Christ.

In Acts10:25And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

Cornelieus falls down to worship him and Peter says not to do that because he is just a man. This is in contrast with the verses that you provide where the “angel” accepts the worship. An angel or a man are not allowed to accept worship.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Are you for real or are you just being a smart alec or maybe you are saying that you don’t believe that Jesus is more than a man.

 

[greggy53]

These SDA folks have an amazing propensity for taking scripture out of context:shrug:

 

[greggy53]

I wonder,do those of the Jewish faith think that the angel Michael is God? Seeing as how the OT was revealed to them. I never heard that they (the Jews) believed or taught such a thing.

 

[Cinette]

This is GOOFY !!

 

[Javl]

I wonder,do those of the Jewish faith think that the angel Michael is God? Seeing as how the OT was revealed to them. I never heard that they (the Jews) believed or taught such a thing.

No, greggy, the Jews definitely do not think that Michael is God, nor is/was he the Son of God. According to Judaism, angels are created beings, like men, but are spiritual in nature.

In Hebrew scripture ( the OT ), when the term “the angel of the Lord” is used it signifies God Himself. When the term “an angel of the Lord” is used, it means a messenger of/from God.

Now, refering to Michael the Archangel being Jesus, much proof in scripture has been given in which to rebuff and rebuke the Seventh Day Adventist claim. Of course, the SDA rejects all and gives its version of proof that Jesus was/is. In examining this proof I find almost all of it weak. The scriptures quoted are in reality allegories, comparisons, and whatever else you may want to call them.

As final evidence that Michael is/was not Jesus, St. Jude , in his letter ( verse 8 ) tells of Michaels fight with Satan over the body of Moses: “In his quarrel with the Devil, when they argued about who would have the body of Moses, Michael did not dare condemn the Devil with insulting words, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!’”. Now, if Jesus is God from the beginning ( John 1:1-3 ), and is/was Michael as claimed by the SDAs, why then did He, as God, dared not condemn or rebuke the Devil?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem